[{"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1313844535.6377239, "message": "Tangled is streaming right now on Netflix. Is anyone interested in breaking it down into a story form? I think deciding who is the main character will be a good debate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1916676}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1313870821.4388421, "message": "Sure, we have talked about it before though if you want to read that conversation first...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1918288}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1313909223.0557201, "message": "I was shocked at it being such a good movie with mature insights.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1921267}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1313912603.7302799, "message": "I saw the witch as the key, her character being so finely developed.  As I watched the movie, I assumed someone with power at Disney was able to create a positive propaganda film.  The kids getting an insight into the behavior patterns of such a controlling and/or manipulative personality was the first agenda.  Maybe that would make the mc throughline psychology.  Then again, maybe it could be considered like an Aesop's tale, but it seemed too complicated to be a tale.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1921414}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1313932433.8730011, "message": "@jimhull I think it may still be satisfying to come up with a storyform and maybe we could do what I've always wanted to do. Take an incomplete story and fill in the story point holes with different suggestions from the group. A little like embroidery fix-it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1922201}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1313976539.71262, "message": "I definitely think that it's an incomplete storyline. I'd be willing to see what we think needs to be added to fill it in.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1926041}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1313977542.0870349, "message": "When I walked out of the theater, I was sure the writer had used dram.  Most likely, the writer had a complete story, with or without dram, but input from other got some things whacked for the usual reasons by the usual suspects.  It would be fun to do a storyform.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1926211}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1313983024.8075161, "message": "The story team on Tangled had no knowledge of Dramatica.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1926923}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1313982403.103729, "message": "I'm not sure you'll feel that way if you watch Crazy, Stupid, Love.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1926875}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1313986262.864521, "message": "@jimhull Do you know Fogelman?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1927364}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1313991712.034483, "message": "OK, there went that fantasy.  It was interesting to see how just a little tweaking created a satisfying storyform in True Lies by the Dramatica staff.  I think it was just adding the couple getting their child a toy unicorn as a present when they would get back from their spy job at the end.  It would be fun to work out how they could create a masterpiece from something very good in Repunzel.  Who knows, someone might create a dvd wonder in a few years with tech advancement from our ideas.  I always have high hopes.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1927757}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314221421.007885, "message": "Are we going to build a storyform?  Would she be MC as a be-er?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1953120}, {"user_id": 7712, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314330744.909888, "message": "@sam_potter & @prish I'm willing to participate, but would rather do so on Dramaticaquery.com.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1965255}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314332655.2020929, "message": "I would do storyforming here, at least if you're looking for more of a back and forth type of thing (like Back to the Future or Terminator). DQ isn't really built for conversations - its mainly for answering questions.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1965492}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314335555.0692389, "message": "I'll check in and keep tabs on the latest posts in this thread. Who is going to enter things into a storyform on the computer to keep things straight? I'll wander by, tomorrow.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1965740}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314364342.8128581, "message": "Alright, let's get started with naming the characters and their roles. Jim, will you moderate?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1968155}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314364483.673279, "message": "Sure I can do that. First thing is identifying the four throughlines. Overall Story?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1968170}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314372214.854795, "message": "Here are my suggestions: 1. Getting to see the lights, 2. Theft of the crown, 3. The girl with the magical hair (OS), 4. Budding romance", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1968938}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314378622.0367601, "message": "Or, something like \"the effect of the girl with the magical hair\" (as healer and as daughter)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969450}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314377492.933183, "message": "@MikeDerk so what are you saying the Overall Story is?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969355}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314378391.4872811, "message": "The relationship throughline is between Flynn and Rapunzal. The relationship grows from negative to positive. It grows from obligation to romance..", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969428}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314376268.582653, "message": "Mike beat me to it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969271}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314378399.4525859, "message": "I'm having trouble figuring out what the OS would be. I want to say it's \"waiting to find the missing princess\" or something.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969431}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314379155.6361699, "message": "@sam_potter I think the goal might be to find her, but nobody does a lot of looking to achieve that.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969489}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314383387.55671, "message": "we should probably stick with the throughlines first", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969827}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314379377.674994, "message": "Only my first post went through. I also thought the OS was related to finding the missing princess, but the only thing they do to \"find\" her is the lanterns every year.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969500}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314379403.6395309, "message": "Yeah, Convore is being especially convorish today.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969501}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314379510.526278, "message": "Maybe the OS is something like \"Possessing the girl\" because the royals want her back, but the evil mom is really seeking her.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969506}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314378430.9927371, "message": "The overall story is about finding the lost princess.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969435}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314380960.3255019, "message": "I can't tell if Convore is eating every post, or if nobody is posting.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969599}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314381337.012363, "message": "Is it too vague to say 'seeking ones hearts desire' witch seeks her youth, king and queen seek their daughter, rogue seeks his wealth, guards seek the crown?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969619}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314382053.5674331, "message": "@sam_potter that sounds more like a possible Concern to me.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969696}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314382548.4947009, "message": "Wouldn't the OS have something to do with gaining freedom?  I'll mull on it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969730}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314383387.0146711, "message": "We are identifying the gist of the overall story without assigning it a throughline. What is the story about.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969826}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314382698.6552579, "message": "Are we working on OS problem?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969739}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314382831.8920231, "message": "Could OS problem be control?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969762}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314384736.951421, "message": "@Bee you are correct. What is it about? Like Mike said? The girl with the long hair?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1969930}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314408463.897558, "message": "I'm dealing with Hand Foot and Mouth, so I'll be spotty for the rest of the night.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1972046}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314385930.342391, "message": "Ugh. I've lost posts.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970028}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314386224.1226971, "message": "@sam_potter I think you mean, \"without assigning it a Domain.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970052}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314387000.165534, "message": "@MikeDerk @MikeDerk yes. Domain. Thank you. Could that be enough, \"the girl with the long hair\"? It seems as valid as \"saving the empire\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970089}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314388349.7701881, "message": "Here's how I see it right now. We get a bunch of backstory (about the drop of sun falling to earth, etc.) and then the Story begins with the kidnapping of the girl. The king and queen do what they can to find her, and the evil woman does everything she can to keep her hidden away. \n\nIt hits a stasis until it is disrupted from the inside (Rapunzel wants to venture to see the lights) and the outside (Flynn stumbles upon them while escaping capture).\n\nWhen them two meet, the SS is born in a budding romance.\n\nMaybe the OS can be honed to \"having Rapunzel\" but I don't think it needs to be more than that.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970208}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314388743.5875621, "message": "@MikeDerk that sounds good to me. I'm having trouble coming up with anything else.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970246}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314389132.178236, "message": "@jimhull What next?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970284}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314389676.8039141, "message": "I would like to argue that Flynn is the MC. The story is about the girl with the long hair but from The Rogues POV", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970341}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314389796.325495, "message": "Have at it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970356}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314390599.23104, "message": "Or the story starts with Flynn and ends with him. At the end Rapunzal is still impacting him correcting his narration. We even see through Flynn's eyes when he awakes from being conked on the head with a frying pan..", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970415}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314392444.996568, "message": "@MikeDerk  having Repunzel or getting Repunzel would work at this stage", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970595}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314393713.737716, "message": "@sam_potter Do you feel invested in his story? Or do you want Rapunzel to get to see the lights?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970694}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314394522.365978, "message": "@prish @prish this story is called \"Tangled\" I think frying pan girl is the protagonist.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970767}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314392848.843693, "message": "@sam_potter I did consider Flynn the MC, however, the story started with R's kidnapping and the title of the movie was her name, which confused me.  If Flynn is the MC, then I wonder if R is the contagonist, with Flynn the protagonist and evil kidnapper the antagonist.  What ever you think is best, though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970638}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314393671.503119, "message": "If \"having Rapunzel\" is the OS, there is no way Flynn can be the Protagonist. He wants nothing to do with her for the first half.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970690}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314398509.192369, "message": "And Flynn does find a home, at the end, also.  The kidnapper gets the home she deserves, probably.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971161}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314395259.1211281, "message": "@sam_potter My counterargument to Flynn being the MC is that his dream sucks, to quote the piano player. There's nothing to get invested in. On the other hand, Rapunzel is wondering when her life is going to begin.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970812}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314394709.3008621, "message": "Make your argument.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970781}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314395288.629993, "message": "@prish But what we decide isn't the standard. I think there's an answer that's objective.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970814}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314395443.3626721, "message": "@MikeDerk You are correct that Repunzel's journey is the one that the audience invests in, while watching.  For that reason, she should be the MC.  We would not care what Flynn would do if he did not meet up with Repunzel.  However, we would care what Repunzel would do, even if Flynn dropped out of the story, imho.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970828}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314395239.893424, "message": "Maybe the title is the clue.  R is the mc and protag because her hair is tangling everyone up in her life?  What you guys decide is fine with me, btw.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970811}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314395800.7481339, "message": "And who would the protagonist be, given that the OS Throughline is \"getting/having Rapunzel\"?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970872}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314396854.1655891, "message": "Frying pan girl really drives the story. U can have your crown back after u take me to see the lights. She is pursuit, pursuit, pursuit.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970966}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314396668.2456601, "message": "@MikeDerk yes, u had me @ 'invested in' :o) good point. This must be a male minded story then since I empathized with it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970953}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314397972.367146, "message": "The only person actively pursuing \"having Rapunzel\" is Mother Gothel.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971085}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314397174.293458, "message": "But what is the OS \"title\"?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1970990}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314398410.7245281, "message": "Finding the way home?  It is kind of Hansel and Gretel ish.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971148}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314398187.2997401, "message": "@MikeDerk This is a Disney movie.  Maybe it should be \"finding a home\"?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971120}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314398397.6337759, "message": "'Having Rapunzel' Rapunzel (in her personal story) is in strong pursuit but in the objective story...what?  in a way she wants have control of herself (having Rapunzel) to be free to see the world.  Even after tower girl leaves the tower she is not free.  She is very conflicted because she wants to obey her 'mother'.  But if that doesn't work then the mother usurper is really the only person actively pursuing to have the girl, which causes me to doubt our overall story title.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971147}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314398569.594337, "message": "Getting untangled?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971169}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314402337.8757319, "message": "ok, it's having Repunzel.  What's next?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971612}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314400024.3999839, "message": "\"untangling the knot the kingdom is in\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971393}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314402468.564671, "message": "Did we settle on Rapunzel as MC and Flynn as IC?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971623}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314400868.7535119, "message": "Yes, and maybe Flynn did the Greek warrior thing, slicing through the knot by cutting Rapunzel's hair?  If the writers did not use the Dramatica theory, they might have been using myths.  Paul Bart seemed to follow the Hermes myth and qualities, as far as being a trickster, rather closely.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971476}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314402595.7967179, "message": "I would say we can agree that Rapunzel is the MC and Flynn Rider is the IC", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971632}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314403190.345005, "message": "This is why I said their pursuit led to stasis. It wasn't that they hadn't tried. It's that their efforts were countered perfectly by the hidden tower.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971693}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314403213.6520071, "message": "I would see Rapunzel as the protagonist, which would make sense if Gothel is the antagonist.  I would see the king and queen as a guardian player, using the lanterns to show her the way home.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971694}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314403320.2925551, "message": "They release the lanterns each year (I'd forgotten that). Makes sense.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971706}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314402054.8596649, "message": "I wasn't trying tobe clever. It's \"having Rapunzel\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971582}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314403528.7547629, "message": "What's next?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971726}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314402873.9689741, "message": "Maybe I am confusing goal with what the story is about.  If the King and Queen had Rapunzel they wouldn't be so sad.  The guards and Maximus seek tiara which represents Rapunzel.  Mother Gothel has Rapunzel and wants/needs to keep her.  Rapunzel would needs to possess herself and run her own life.  Flynn needs her but doesn't know it (does that count).  Any thoughts.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971660}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314403401.562336, "message": "That they are the protag, I mean.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971710}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314402546.769191, "message": "@MikeDerk but then you asked who the protagonist would be and the only one actively pursuing Rapunzel is Mother Gothel which led me to question our OS story title.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971628}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314403463.052804, "message": "She does have hidden memories of her original home and parents, I'm sure.  The writers have such clearly defined traits for Gothel, they must have taken a child's initial bonding into account.  I am not adverse to the fun of having the king and queen as protagonist, but their roles are so passive, it is hard to give them protagonist, considering Rapunzel is so active, with an active goal.  She does not know why she is pulled to follow the lanterns, but the audience does.  just thoughts", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971711}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314405487.1611941, "message": "ok", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971874}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314402986.765945, "message": "I would look towards the inequity in the story to help figure out who the protagonist is. \n\nThe story begins (I think) when Rapunzel is taken. Gothel wants to keep in that way, ie. maintain the inequity. She isn't the protagonist; she's the antagonist.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971671}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314403161.369072, "message": "Nice.  I like it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971692}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314405098.8547831, "message": "If the king and queen are the protagonist, then would Rapunzel be emotion?  Would that make Flynn the contagonist?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971841}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314403052.493752, "message": "We don't see it, but the king and queen do everything in their powers to find Rapunzel -- they just do it 18 years ago. I think they are still the protagonist. Hence, the lanterns.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971678}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314403244.2644911, "message": "But she doesn't know about getting home.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971699}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314403611.345511, "message": "Can a protagonist pursue a goal they are unaware of?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971731}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314404170.7617309, "message": "She is pursuing her independence like any overprotected teen but that is her personal story.  I hear Chris saying, \"Don't confuse the personal story with the overall story.\" ( I shouldn't use quotes because I rarely get 'it' exactly right) but I believe the intent is correct.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971773}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314413314.9111421, "message": "I think change for the same reason.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1972644}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314404974.834702, "message": "No -- her personal story is to go see the lanterns.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971830}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314405538.4019029, "message": "So what's next? MC Issue?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971879}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314405357.4509001, "message": "I'm not very good at answering that kind of question yet. It also doesn't help get to the storyform, which is probably (historically) why I haven't put a lot of time into figuring that kind of thing out.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971862}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314405481.7312391, "message": "Plus, we'll see if I'm leading us down the right path!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971873}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314408291.9832039, "message": "Here I am sorry. Next would be Main Character Resolve...which should be interesting...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1972031}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314406530.2894349, "message": "I think MC Issue is a ways away. (If nothing else, it skips the Concerns.)\n\nI think we should continue with the 12 Questions, but I want Jim to steer us.\n\nUntil he's back, should be assign Domains to the Throughlines?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1971935}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314407897.9661951, "message": "Go for it. I'll be back once the kids are in bed...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1972012}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314409760.526319, "message": "Interesting that we decide Resolve before putting a Domain to the MC.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1972151}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314410317.4656579, "message": "Oh, resolve, two choices, ooops.  I say steadfast because she is singleminded, and eventually pieces together clues as to her true identify, without having to do any major change.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1972246}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314409916.5160711, "message": "I vote for the MC throughline to be psychology, since her main story is to become free from her abductor who plays mental games on her.  ooops I'll post this then look at the resolve possibilities, since I am wrestling with a keyboard thing.  Is escape a resolve option?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1972182}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314411463.7984209, "message": "I say Change. She wanted nothing more than to get out of the tower and start her life, and she's willing to give that up to save Flynn.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1972411}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314411867.866431, "message": "ok, that sounds good.  I love how he gives up his life to set her free, strictly imho, of course.  That viewpoint is probably audience reception m/f.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1972465}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314414345.2141991, "message": "I didn't know audience reception M/F was appreciably different.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1972729}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314418635.8730581, "message": "Change is ok with me.  Whatever you all observe to be accurate, will be fine, and I'll pick this up late tonight or tomorrow.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973170}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314416448.026402, "message": "Probably in only some minor points, sorry for mixing the theory with personal opinion.  mea culpa for mudding the waters.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1972927}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314420709.1360371, "message": "I thought she just wanted to see the lights.  I am not convinced she is a change character yet.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973441}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314423347.299392, "message": "I think that other theories have their place, but you have highlighted something I don't like about inciting incidents: that they can be brought about by \"more of the same thing.\" \n\nRapunzel knows that she's never going to leave the tower -- it's not news to her. So I don't like that it can be the thing that marks a point of no return.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973713}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314422069.4251189, "message": "Rapunzel's Act 2 starts when Mother Gothel breaks and angrily tells Rapunzel she will NEVER, EVER get to leave the tower.  In her ordinary world she wants to see the lights but after that (her inciting incident) her steadfastness to have freedom grows.  When Rapunzel actually gets out and feels the grass she LOVES it and at the same time she is feeling so much guilt (inhibitor).  She is still tied to the tower by the tangle that Gothel has on her but the lights still call her and the joys and wonders of the world take her further.  Her story is not over until her tear brings Flynn back to life and Gothel falls in a wisp of dust.  That was a crisis moment for her but not the end.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973615}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314421282.5789151, "message": "@sam_potter I had to think about that too. It's like, \"well, what did she want and did she get it?\" And the answer is, yes, she toughed it out and got to the lights.\n\nBut, imagine that all she wanted to do was feel grass under her feet. (This would take some major rewriting, but hear me out.)  And, when she get down and does it, Flynn says, \"If you like that, you'll never believe what the ocean feels like.\" And off they go. \n\nWould you still hold the same opinion that she is steadfast? No matter what else happened in the rest of the movie?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973528}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314422243.3471241, "message": "You are mixing theories.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973636}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314424566.0600951, "message": "How does this relate to her being Steadfast?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973806}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314422982.0269389, "message": "I am not surprised. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.  But do you get my thinking.  She starts out craving the wonders of the outside world and the lights are a big part of that.  When Gothel yells at her and says she will NEVER leave the tower her resolve grows as if that were a catalyst for her.  Her guilt is an inhibitor, her love for others, perhaps. So at the end it almost ends badly for her but maybe losing her hair frees her completely so her story ends well.  Her hair isn't change it was the thing that bound her.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973693}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314423385.706285, "message": "So, while I get your thinking, my take is that it's built on a faulty foundation here.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973716}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314423312.1785171, "message": "@sam_potter I get your thinking, but Rapunzel didn't take the leap there--Flynn did that for her, and she had no choice in the matter.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973709}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314423604.9476111, "message": "Anyway, it doesn't matter that her resolve gets emboldened in the middle of the story. I think that's true in many stories -- as obstacles mount, people get tested, and they need more resolve.\n\nThe question is, at the end of the story, when facing the last obstacle, do they stick to their guns, or change?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973736}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314423845.5801339, "message": "It was some kind of transition you have to agree.  She was about to tell Gothel that she had a man tied up in the closet and after Gothel's venear of kindness cracks Rapunzel decides to keep Flynn's visit a secret and her resolve to get out has grown.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973744}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314426147.839582, "message": "@Bee Doesn't that make her a being MC?  Or is there something else going on?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973869}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314423936.0930951, "message": "It's the first time she's kept a secret from Mother Gothel, I think. It's the first time she gets suspicious that she maybe isn't looking out for her.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973748}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314424058.3376451, "message": "When you say, \"her resolve to get out has grown,\" are you saying that once she sees the lights, this drive is sated?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973755}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314425639.1765349, "message": "@Bee I guess I am arguing that there is no leap to take because she is a steadfast character.   Flynns action saves her from her story ending in badly.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973851}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314425855.0123529, "message": "Flynn changes from self absorbed during the lantern scene. He realizes he cares about her at that point. He tries to return the crown to the thugs because she's more important to him now. Sam, But shouldn't she grow into her resolve on her own, rather than have it forced on her? That's what I'm referring to.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973858}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314425328.5447159, "message": "I know I am not suppose to use the impact character but does this help my argument?  Flynn starts out as a self absorbed rogue and his 'final act' is a selfless act because Rapunzel impacted his nature.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973844}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314424491.2474699, "message": "I think it starts with the lights and she feels the grass in her toes and she meets the nice pub thugs who tell her everyone has a dream it just gets better and better.  Mother Gothel is all that holds her back.  Her hair is what binds her and Gothel wants to keep all the magic of the hair to herself.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973800}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314425150.7239521, "message": "She starts out dreaming of freedom or being independent and strong and she almost gives in at the end where she would lose her will forever but and action happens that keeps her from that fatal choice and she is able to keep her resolve of dreaming for a better future.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973829}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314425522.3904021, "message": "Perhaps I am arguing that her hair is her situation.  If it were the tower than the story would be over as soon as she got out but the story is not over until she loses her hair.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973849}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314425590.983654, "message": "@Bee  That is why I thought she was a being character.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973850}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314425726.1370671, "message": "@MikeDerk I would assume it was Flynn in the equation that makes her want to leave the tower, since he is such a free character, so to speak.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973852}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314425916.0448029, "message": "Nothing like tangling this up more by jumping in late in the night.  I hope you can figure out which response is to which post.  It's too bad there is not the little paragraph indentation thing.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973864}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314426412.961869, "message": "@jimhull OK, I'll hold off and just concentrate on Resolve.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973882}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314427040.513948, "message": "Yeah, but so many fairy tales make no sense. I honestly can't figure out why some of them are still told they're so weird.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973919}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314426229.9178929, "message": "Domains come after the Main Character and Story Dynamics. You start talking Domains too early and everyone goes off on Issues, Problems, etc. I would avoid talking Approach until you can cone to a consensus on Resolve.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973872}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314426417.4041059, "message": "@Bee The hair may be tied to the Overall Story.  I think her sacrificing herself is in her nature. She probably would do it for mother Gothel at an earlier point.  That is who she is.  If this turns out to be an Action driven story I would say the action of her hair being cut is the action which helps her keep her resolve and frees her from Mother Gothel.   I am going to hold my guns here but by morning if all y'all want to move on that is, of course, okay by me.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973883}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314426259.892437, "message": "@Bee I always saw her resolve just growing stronger, but depending on outside influences to start.  That might mean she is a start character, too.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973878}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314427128.4876549, "message": "Can we take a moment to ignore the fact that we are all on-line at 11:40 on a Friday night?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973921}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314426757.961273, "message": "@sam_potter I think you've hit on the key moment that makes this movie screwy. You say she \"almost gives in\" -- but she gives in. She begs Gothel to save Flynn. So, she changes. Then Flynn cuts her hair off! He's changed from selfish to self-less.\n\nThere's a chaotic moment of \"b.bb....bb... but I changed for you. Why are you changing for me?\"\n\nAdd to that that Rapunzel is unhappy about her change, and then unhappy about his change!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973906}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314426808.584522, "message": "Tears = deus ex machina. Bletch.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973908}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314426875.4217069, "message": "@prish Flynn doesn't want to make her leave the tower. She asks her mother for permission to leave before Flynn enters her life.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973912}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314426910.994091, "message": "@MikeDerk To give the writers a break, that was in the original fairy tale.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973913}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314427785.3421929, "message": "I have no life, and that's all I'll say about that.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973951}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314427893.5110011, "message": "True about the tears, but she could sing and her hair would work for anyone... Tears come from true emotion (in an ideal world).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1973954}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314430740.774153, "message": "Forgive me, everyone, if all those other posts that disappeared show up, again, in the dead of night.  There might be some repeats.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1974077}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314430121.721648, "message": "Many of my posts disappeared.  I closed the browser.  Interesting.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1974053}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314430368.7984519, "message": "@MikeDerk   You are right that she wanted to leave the tower before Flynn came into her life.  So does that make her resolve Steadfast?  She might have caved in to the evil kidnapper fake mother, but by whacking her hair, does the IC Flynn help her remain steadfast?  Isn't it that the IC influences the MC to remain steadfast or to change?  Can the IC do the IC thing without written permission from the MC, so to speak?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1974065}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314430672.3941219, "message": "@Bee   Could there be some connection with eye lashes being hair, the tears and saving Flynn?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1974075}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314450100.297945, "message": "You were all up at 11:40 on a Friday night but for me it was 1:00 am.  I'll just say It's because I love the gestalt of this so much.  The debate and learning for me is very enjoyable.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1974914}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314452474.3549559, "message": "What if we leave this blank.    I hear what you're saying about the deus ex machina. Is that fate and or destiny.  My daughter pointed out that the other thing is the stretch bletch of her seeing the sun print and she suddenly ties it all together that SHE IS THE PRINCESS. I guess she was saying she didn't like the set-up for that moment or she wished disney had found a more effective way for her to discover her true identity.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1975067}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314456598.140739, "message": "I wouldn't leave this blank.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1975434}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314459601.7214539, "message": "I would go with Change/Bad if we're not leaving this blank.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1975570}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314462242.6462951, "message": "\"So your going to back\" sic. to the tower? \"No!...yes?...It's complicated\"  \nThat is half way through.  I am going to watch the end again. My vote is Steadfast / Action / Good.  I know that is jumping ahead. but I am using the Action driven story as part of my argument that she ends up being steadfast.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1975765}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314462546.9847381, "message": "Mother Gothel is playing both the antagonist and much of the con-tagonist as well.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1975788}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314462764.2169681, "message": "The tension between Maximus and Flynn... is it reason vs. emotion or sidekick vs. gaurdian?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1975799}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314462219.375375, "message": "@prish Convore is known for eating posts, unfortunately.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1975763}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314462263.7005639, "message": "@Bee That explains their icon.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1975769}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314463984.3625319, "message": "The thing about Action being a part of your steadfast argument is that the Drivers have to do with the OS story, and we're talking about the MC.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1975895}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314464293.9410141, "message": "R: \"What if (the lights rising into the sky) isn't everything I dreamed it would be?\"\nF: \"It will be.\"\nR: \"And what if it is? What'll I do then?\"\nF: \"Well, that's the good part I guess. You get to go find a new dream.\"\nThe lights are wonderful and lifts the fear or inhibitors and her dream becomes Flynn and their dream becomes each other then the Antagonist/Contagonist has a major win.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1975921}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314465210.216054, "message": "I'm sorry @sam_potter but I don't have any idea what that means.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1975988}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314465426.045069, "message": "The question we are talking about, at its essence, is \"Does Rapunzel change some deeply held personal desire/drive/motivation? Is there something about her essence that changes?\" \n\nI get that this could be \"she gets a new dream.\" Are you saying her new dream is \"keep Flynn safe?\"\n\nIt's just so early in the story. He hasn't been taken to the gallows yet, he still has the crown, Gothel hasn't executed her plan involving the twin thugs...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1976008}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314465613.16804, "message": "@MikeDerk  Why bad?  The only thing bad was that she lost the magic hair, and that was good for her new free life.  Maybe it would be failure/good.  Maybe it IS all about the hair.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1976026}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314465614.654964, "message": "Well, I am wondering if there is a cheat and a new story starts here since she sees her lights.  but what i think is more likely is the lights are a symptom like goal and the response, though nice, doesn't really satisfy the real concerns and if Flynn were to die then she would lose her self.  If Flynn is alive no matter her situation then she has the princess in her heart.  Like I said her essence is to bring sunshine into the life of everyone she meets.  And in choosing to save Flynn this is her true essence and always has been.   The hair is what imprisons her.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1976027}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314465755.06264, "message": "@prish I think it's bad because she changes her dream to \"start her life\" and is willing to go sit in a hidden tower for the rest of her life if only Gothel will save Flynn.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1976045}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314466990.5878589, "message": "@sam_potter I think it's always been about more than the lights for Rapunzel. She asks \"When will my life begin?\" (first song, I think), which to me alludes to more than just wanting to see the lights. The lights give her a reason to leave, and Flynn gives her a method, though she implies that she's wanted to leave the tower for quite a few years. When she feels the grass under her feet, she sings about finally being free and feeling like her life has begun.\n\nDuring her indecision montage, one of the things she says is, \"I'm never going back.\"--At this point, she hasn't seen the lights; it's all about the experience of freedom, and her freedom is what she's willing to sacrifice to save Flynn's life.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1976129}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314467508.2864361, "message": "IF u were to stretch a little... \"u were my new dream\" \"& u were mine.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1976166}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314468340.1163189, "message": "I think it's you.  @Bee", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1976229}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314467640.524159, "message": "How do the old dream and the new dream and being free all fit together? Could it be an internal freedom. I am asking u to redefine you vision of freedom.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1976181}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314468172.5583191, "message": "@sam_potter who are you asking to redefine? Mike or me?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1976216}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314467970.434026, "message": "@Bee Good argument about it being all about Freedom.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1976199}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314472867.8648911, "message": "Ha anyone who will listen. This is my last argument for steadfast... R says to Gothel at the end, \"I will fight you and never stop but I will stay with u if u let me save him.\" she doesn't say she will stop fighting her but only that she will stay with her. The distinction seemed very clear to me. But then I am want to see it that way I recognize.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1976635}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314480028.226522, "message": "Hmmm... So her fight remains. Tricky.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1977231}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314483320.4924321, "message": "I'm going to do an about face here. She doesn't lose her fight, so she's steadfast. And ultimately, it all turns out for the better, so Good. (Sorry for jumping ahead on the Judgment.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1977606}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314494538.2194049, "message": "Steadfast ok, what's next?  Good on the good, btw, being my favorite kind of movie/story...such a wuss, here.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1979469}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314495887.9294159, "message": "@prish I also think it's really interesting that you want the movie to be \"Good\" -- you've already seen it and know it. Why do you attach more weight to the storyform than your own experience of viewing it?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1979652}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314494901.012959, "message": "@sam_potter Probably cheats all over the place, since if they do not use Dramatica, they probably piece myths and ancient gods together.  I do tutoring to adults who struggle with going back to college, and as I took a movie apart to demonstrate how to do a certain assignment, which was about such a use, I realized that Paul Bart matched the trickster/Hermes, point by point, quality by quality, story act and scenes, all the way through.  That is when I saw that some writers use the ancients, etc.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1979514}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314495584.0458751, "message": "@prish You have the funniest preconceptions about how we work here in Hollywood.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1979606}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314496708.5951071, "message": "@prish Who's to say they don't use Dramatica.  I am not sure about all the ancient gods but most likely the hero's journey.   @MikeDerk  Don't you think that the hero's journey works with Dramatica?  I think Dramatica is unique and on a whole other level but that one can put the form on top of Dramatica. I do hear what your saying that one should not use the Hero's Journey terms to argue Dramatica points", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1979777}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314498250.693799, "message": "Cultural memory must influence story creation.  I never thought about it much, until I saw that Paul Bart matched the trickster/Hermes points.  We do need communication with the masses to make money as writers, and there is nothing wrong with using what was successful in the past, even subconsciously.  Then again, and/or also, the Muses might actually exist.  Hey, they can visit me, anytime.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1980013}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314498681.756062, "message": "\n@MikeDerk   Details matter to me, I guess (unless it is cleaning my house)...gotta get that good in the right spot in the Dramatica document. ", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1980056}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314499068.3622129, "message": "So what's next?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1980124}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314499328.988003, "message": "@jimhull Moderator? How do you feel about Steadfast?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1980173}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314499794.944838, "message": "@prish I tend to agree that good ideas get picked up and used again. I haven't seen Paul Blart, nor have I thought much about Hermes or his points. \n\nThe worst version of this that I've ever seen though was in a script where someone diverted a road trip to drop two guys in a women's college, and then tried to justify it by saying \"It's Ulysses and the Sirens!\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1980229}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314499678.5294111, "message": "@sam_potter I work in Hollywood and have had very little contact with Dramatica, and almost zero that wasn't dismissive (or derisive) of the theory. \n\nMany people know The Hero's Journey, although they know the watered-down Vogler version and not the actual Campbell version, which is also aggravating. Because, if you're going to learn something, learn it. Don't learn the Cliff Notes. But, even the people who know it tend to use it only to retroactively justify things.\n\nI do think the two theories can work together. I actually think a writer can get a lot from reading every \"how to\" book out there. Usually they go to storyweaving, or can only be applied here and there.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1980204}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314499824.3539729, "message": "Maybe it was supposed to be, but you can't stick those things just anywhere and expect them to work.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1980234}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314500494.920634, "message": "I have so much to learn.  I really liked Chris Huntley's article comparing other paradigms.  http://www.dramatica.com/podcasts/storytalk.xml\nHe seems very gracious especially in the light of Dramatica being treated dismissively..", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1980320}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314500542.9041591, "message": "Generally speaking, people are quick to dismiss what they don't understand.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1980324}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314502047.9137759, "message": "We can move on to Approach if you want. Having missed the first 5 minutes the only time I've seen this, I got the impression that there was something wacky about the Resolve. I'm watching it again now just to make sure but I got the impression that they both changed and thus, a search for a storyform might not work out.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1980435}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314505969.659148, "message": "Rapunzel is a do-er.  She solves her problems externally.  She paints.  She cleans. She hits with the frying pan first and asks questions later.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1980892}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314510657.434988, "message": "No. I believe that at the end is the first we see of her tears. I am not following your question but I know you have a point :0)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1981665}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314511533.934417, "message": "Cool -- rereading through these it occurred to me that we never really settled on a clear OS but we can save that till later. I saw suggestions of Rapunzel as Be-er, anyone?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1981752}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314509486.9146619, "message": "Ok, so it wasn't the Resolve that was screwy. Did I miss something? Did we see earlier that her tears could heal as well?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1981488}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314510786.523782, "message": "No it just came out of nowhere. Thought I missed something. I would agree that she is Steadfast and he is Change. Not sure why I used to think they both changed. Probably a good example of not showing up late for a movie!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1981678}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314511014.7953689, "message": "It looks like she gives in at the end but I argued she is saving Flynn but not giving up her essence and her fight.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1981704}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314510858.963388, "message": "We had an excellent debate about it that lasted about 24 hours.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1981690}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314513984.0812819, "message": "I see her as a be-er, similar to the examples of Nora in A Doll's House, Rick of Casablanca, and Reggie of The Client.  When we first meet Reggie, she is very active at working to get a window unstuck.  Rick is walking around the club and interacting with everyone.  Nora is always adapting herself to her environment.  These seem similar traits to Rapunzel in the tower.  OR is she trying to mold anyone, as Lawrence in LoA?  Is she trying to manipulate everyone like George in WAoVW?  Is she a take charge type person like Woody in TS?  Does she act first, think later, like Luke in SW?  Did she kidnap a lamb in order to save it like Clarice in tSotL?  Does she first try to solve her problems by first taking action, as Jim who was compelled to run into the building to save Plato, in spite of the danger of being shot by the police and Plato?  Jim would put up his fists at the accusation of being chicken, so does Repunzel have that kind of reaction?  Does her hair define her as action?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1981904}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314516870.863611, "message": "I thought be-er as well. She's never stood up to Mother Gothel, she's adapted to life in her tower, and her \"I can't believe I did this!\" freak out... there were a couple of others, but it's too late to think straight.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1982051}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314518335.667417, "message": "I agree that she's a be-er, too, but I have trouble pointing to a specific moment besides her freak-out where she shows this explicitly. \n\nFlynn proposes they go back to the tower, she pulls out the frying pan, \"I will use this.\"\n\nFlynn is about to get punched in the Snuggly Duckling, she whacks the big guy with a branch and then pulls out the frying pan. \n\nThese are very active, no?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1982124}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314518533.736701, "message": "I agree there. My follow up didn't post. But I'd said that throughout the movie, she has to do a lot and she's very active. But I think her preference is to adapt...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1982135}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314536025.1853089, "message": "That sounds great. A very active BE-ER.  I didn't like my argument for do-er.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1983227}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314545170.5568359, "message": "I won't be back until tonight.  Have fun.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1983863}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314545027.4242699, "message": "I vote for be-er, also.  In the definition, there is reference to do-er physical effort vs be-er emotional/mental effort.  Maybe she fits the emotional effort.  There is the tear at the end, also.  She has adapted herself to the environment, and she is all mental and emotional about the lights for years before she decides to sneak out for a short while, planning to return to her environment.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1983841}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314546216.1183901, "message": "See, this is where the story starts to fall apart. If that freak out moment is a part of her personal throughline, then that would suggest that she is a Change character -- she finally stands up to her mother at the end. But Flynn is definitely written as a Change character. If she is Steadfast then she has to be steadfast on an external issue -- which would make her a Do-er.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1983959}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314546261.0474789, "message": "But then what is that freak-out moment about? This film is really all over the place structurally.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1983966}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314550727.371244, "message": "I guess that is still external.  The voice of Mother Gothel telling her she is helpless and not strong or confident.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1984431}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314549844.9288771, "message": "She is a weak steadfast character at the beginning and her steadfastness grows.  Her mother usurper does everything she can to quelch her confidence and strength.  Your too weak and frail and worthless to fight or to be free.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1984307}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314549946.348609, "message": "@jimhull  Jim, can you make a better argument for  do-er than I can because I really want (I know) her story to be in situation.?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1984316}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314549709.979614, "message": "Isn't that her inhibitors working?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1984292}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314551535.682904, "message": "Does she really believe it or just manipulated.  Is it her inner need to please her mother", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1984520}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314550601.2084391, "message": "I know it's not advisable, but would reverse engineering help us in this case?  Is the source of her problem her hair (situation) or is it the internal voice that comes from Mother Gothel that she is helpless and not strong and confident (fixed attitude)?.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1984414}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314551024.9627011, "message": "You know the story, a person stuck in an abusive relationship where the abuser tells the abused, \"You are lucky to have me.  Who else would have you let a lone love you.  You are a piece of crap.  Your stupid and weak.\"  this keeps the person in place and afraid to leave the relationship  and feeling dependent.  The movie waitress comes to mind where the pie diner waitress's husband is constantly telling her she is worthless and she is lucky to be with him.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1984466}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314551421.0471661, "message": "In the beginning she accepts that mother knows best. In the end she thinks mother is crazy. That's a huge paradigm shift.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1984511}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314551575.186053, "message": "...believe mother knows best I mean...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1984524}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314551624.4466071, "message": "If she really believed mother knows best on this issue then she would have dropped it a long time ago.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1984527}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314587662.0095789, "message": "I hadn't really thought about what that might mean. Maybe \"he helps Rapunzel Understand the world\" or something.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990130}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314551323.4540169, "message": "Back to do--er.  She may be a suppressed do-er.  A passive do-er.  When the story starts she is trying to prove to her mother that she is strong enough and she can take care of herself.  She captures the rogue and is going to show Mother Gothel until Gothel breaks and screams at her.  She realizes she has to do something on her own.  She doesn't tell Mother G. about Flynn and develops a plan for Flynn to take her to the lights.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1984501}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314558468.2932971, "message": "Because she obviously changes the way she thinks. I really don't think there will be a storyform that fits.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1986125}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314558134.3013251, "message": "@jimhull Why does she have to be Steadfast on an external issue? I feel like I missed a step.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1986033}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314558507.815798, "message": "Oh... I see. It's not that she doesn't change the way she thinks, it's that we need something else to exist in order to conform to a steadfast storyform.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1986134}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314558688.9389529, "message": "I know I switched to Steadfast, but I really do think this is a Change/Change fiasco. (Although I can justify other Change/Change stories, this one I cannot.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1986171}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314559415.6179709, "message": "so you're not buying my \"small kernal of fight\" surpressed by the Mother Gothel that grows as her .  Try this, Mother Gothel is actually two roles.  She is Antagonist and Contagonist sort of like Gollum/Sm\u00e9agol.  Where one personality plays in the Overall Story (I will guess Gothel as Antagonist) and Mother usurper plays in the personal story.  Rapunzel has been conditioned and her efforts to change her predetermined course grows as she overcomes her conditioning.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1986299}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314559489.978209, "message": "(grows as her view of her 'mother' changes)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1986310}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314559925.449672, "message": "It's telling that the best OS we could come up with was \"Having Rapunzel\".", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1986393}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314559598.29375, "message": "Yeah, but it's not like she maintains her point-of-view. How would you even describe it?  I don't think there's an argument being made (within the story). I think it was a valiant effort to piece together a bunch of different stories over the course of seven years, but in the end it's just a tale.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1986338}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314560195.9046359, "message": "True.  I am not sure why I feel so strongly about this.  I cannot justify well Rapunzel as a do-er but her steadfastness and her stuck in situation I feel strongly about.  This morning I came up with a storyform which I think could work and one of the key pieces for me was Rapunzel's critical flaw.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1986433}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314560716.281383, "message": "I'm still stuck on resolve, too. Sam, the reason I have trouble seeing your view of her not losing her fight, Is because though she says she'll never stop fighting, she then says, if you let me save him, I will come with you, and I'll never try to run or escape. She promises, and earlier she had told Flynn, I NEVER break a promise. But I accept the fact I can't see it your way, and I'm okay with that. I'm with Jim, I don't think we'll find a storyform, either..", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1986500}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314562126.2201631, "message": "Could that be her steadfastness.  Never breaking her promise.  (grasping) as a quote from one of my favorite podcasts goes, \"I hear what you're saying, but you are completely wrong.\"  Do you want to drop it? @jimhull Shall we drop it?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1986718}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314562271.9328451, "message": "I am just a neophyte in Indiana who wants to be a screenwriter and am doing this avoiding working on my own screenplay.  You are the gods of Dramatica (jk) and are much more experienced than I.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1986757}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314563316.9913039, "message": "No, no problem at all. After awhile you begin to develop a feel for a story that's trying to say something and a story that's just something.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1986881}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314563515.1484671, "message": "Also, I don't think any of thus can be called \"avoiding\" writing. By learning this stuff the same time you are developing your actual writing skills will help you to leapfrog over plateaus of understanding that would otherwise take years to climb.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1986916}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314564586.1288681, "message": "@MikeDerk \"Oh... I see. It's not that she doesn't change the way she thinks, it's that we need something else to exist in order to conform to a steadfast storyform.\" can you give me an example of this or is that your point?  there are no examples.?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1987103}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314563362.6517451, "message": "This storyform you came up with, where was the OS, where was the Relationship Story and who was the Protagonist?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1986890}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314564073.237015, "message": "@jimhull Thank you.  I do feel it is a huge help and to be able to come up with story points to back up my choices is huge.  This is my crossword puzzle or suduko. :0)  The OS is in Activity, The RS is in Manipulation.  Rapunzel's drive is inequity. Her fatal flaw is conditioning.  Do you want to hear more.  I may do a story points report and try to fill in all the story points.  I know this isn't the greatest screenplay but that almost makes it a better learning tool.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1987007}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314564855.13662, "message": "@jimhull \"In the beginning she accepts that mother knows best. In the end she thinks mother is crazy. That's a huge paradigm shift.\" Could this be similar to Dr. Kimble in the Fugitive.  He changes his view of Deputy Gerard.  In the beginning Gerard is the enemy and at the end Gerard is an ally.  All smiles, \"I thought you didn't care?\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1987142}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314565810.1762049, "message": "No. Kimbles issue is that he didn't kill his wife. I don't think he necessarily thought Gerard was an enemy. At least that wasn't high on his list of priorities.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1987267}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314565853.8874459, "message": "But let's take your storyform...how do you see the Story Goal as Understanding?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1987272}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314567469.2281361, "message": "@jimhull understanding where she came from. The antagonist is definitely opposed to her understanding who she is. Even stronger, understanding her true strength. Gothel is always undermining that understanding.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1987449}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314569234.6863611, "message": "Ok but that would imply that once she Understood the Overall Story would be over...and it isn't. A problem still exists. Plus Gothels machinations are more psychological in manner rather than external.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1987655}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314569399.889107, "message": "Some of that sounds like personal story. Let me try again. Protagonists understanding what happened to their daughter, the rogue understanding his real dream. Frying pan girl understanding her true strength and the inequity of her 'mother', guardian horse understanding the difference from the letter of the law right and wrong. understanding", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1987670}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314573295.198478, "message": "Again, the king and queen do not work well as a protagonist. They don't escalate their approach in response to Act Turns. There is no Protagonist because there is no clear-cut Goal. There is a clear Antagonist - but no one confronting her throughout each Act.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1988035}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314571138.662262, "message": "The King and Queen are the Protagonists? I don't think that works. Protagonists constantly adjusts their methods in response to the Act Turns...they don't really do that. They're really one note throughout. And I would try not to use other bits of a storyform to back up your arguments. The problem with skipping ahead and trying to figure out everything before you nail down the big chunks (top level stuff) is that you can easily convince yourself that you're on the right track. But even so - if the Goal that everyone is concerned with, that the King and Queen are pursuing is that the girl understand where she is coming from...how does sending lamps into the sky work to achieve that goal?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1987809}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314571858.6286931, "message": "@jimhull gotcha.  I felt very convincing using the bits of storyform.  We had talked about The King and Queen as protagonist so I went with that.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1987872}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314573560.846324, "message": "I left out Frying Pan girl with the sundrop hair. She needs to come up with a plan to implement an existing idea... Her existing idea is in the first song, \"When will my life begin\"  She feels stuck. Her goal is to develop a plan that will begin her life. She really seems to be \"other\" centered and so that plan must include keeping those she cares about happy.  That would start with Mother Gothel and then include Flynn and then finally excludes Gothel (and I think I just made your argument for her change in regard to Gothel (is there any chance that is ancilliary to her goal?))", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1988071}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314572882.1396811, "message": "Ok Jim, I am backing up a little.  I am sticking with MC=Doer, Action driven story, Optionlock, Success, Good (because it's Disney and it sure feels like success good and I am working with the end not being a cheat (right?) so I changed OS to Manipulation just for fun and I get developing a plan as the story goal.  That I have trouble with whenever that comes up because it is hard to wrap my mind around Developing a Plan at the end of the story.  Just  a personal hurdle. but let me try.  \nking and queen have tried everything they know to find their daughter before the story starts so their goal is to develop a plan that will actually work.  rogues goal is to develop a plan so that he can have his dream.  guard horse is to develop a plan to uphold the right & good and stop the wrong & bad. the kidnapper's goal is to develop a final plan that will stop sun-hair girl from ever wanting to leave her side again.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1987983}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314573684.376215, "message": "Right - but she isn't scheming - manipulating - developing a plan - she just wants to see those lights. And when she sees the lights the film comes to a screeching halt.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1988094}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314573632.174057, "message": "Well, then it has to be Rapunzel as the Protagonist.  She moves the story forward.  She is at least the closest thing to the Protagonist.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1988081}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314575097.7593391, "message": "I would try really hard not to think of stuff at the lower levels - symptoms, responses, fatal flaws (critical flaws), signposts, benchmarks, costs, dividends -- all these are meaningless without seen in context of their bigger parts. For a story to be sound, you should be able to make concrete arguments for the larger chunks without reference to anything else.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1988356}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314574677.868546, "message": "Yes, I like Activity and back to Understanding.  The lights in the sky are a signal to help the lost princess understand where she comes from.  Follow the lights.  Come to the source of the lights.  as far as screeching halt I guess I thought it wasn't a bad hand-off. (gist) \"What happens after I see the lights?\" \"You get to find a new dream.\" Am I way off base when I say the the goal of the lights is a response to what is now an unchosen symptom? her actual goal is bigger than the lights.  It is starting her life.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1988279}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314575486.6746409, "message": "Frying pan girl with the sun-drop hair has a goal of understanding when her life will begin.  At the beginning she asks when and it is not till the end when she finally understands her life begins when she understands her own strength and confidence and understands that she is worthy of someones love, that no matter where she ends up, whether it be held up in a tower with a person she dispises, her life is her own (like Victor Frankl) no one else can control her thoughts.  (put that in your pipe and ...just kidding)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1988435}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314578308.013624, "message": "I just got Convored", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1988798}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314580924.6781089, "message": "I read all the posts and understood there was some question about no storyform, but not that it had been decided there was no storyform.  If a story has been constructed without Dramatica, I always understood it was only to get as close as possible.  There are lots of storyform and character points using Dramatica with Tangled.  But do you guys want to stop because the storyform is confusing?  I am confused, but willing to go along with whatever.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989203}, {"user_id": 29788, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314581010.1758871, "message": "@jimhull  Great review of Tangled on your site.  (FYI you might have a problem with your RSS feeds, unless it's just me...)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989224}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314580087.255187, "message": "-vorous, suffix, feeding on a specified food", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989022}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314581073.6573019, "message": "@dp thanks. I'll look into the RSS", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989240}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314580724.123975, "message": "not that this is what we are discussing but if I may, perhaps the king and queen could be tied up with the whole kingdom and thus, if I may be so bold as to suggest, we could list the entire kingdom as the emotion character (a passenger, as it were, in the story)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989144}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314580722.8945401, "message": "Are we still working on be-er/do-er, steadfast/change?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989143}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314581063.743458, "message": "ok, over and out", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989237}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314583750.70015, "message": "I know, it's all a stretch.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989662}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314581165.9997201, "message": "I will read Jim's article first but I probably will keep at it for fun (as a learning process.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989258}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314581018.2935209, "message": "Maybe we should all come up with our own storyform of Tangled and compare them, for fun.  We might make a break through, too.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989227}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314581043.3926301, "message": "Personally I think it's a waste of time to look for a storyform in a film that is clearly not arguing a position. There will be no storyform.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989233}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314581148.807415, "message": "@sam_potter how about Flynns concern then?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989255}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314580843.708976, "message": "@Prish I would read the whole thing since last you were here. We basically came to the understanding that there is no storyform.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989179}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314581190.6148341, "message": "Feel free to ask more Sam, no problem", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989266}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314581336.404232, "message": "Flynn's concern of Memories.  Could be tough. He is the impact character so it is her memories he impacts... hmmm", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989292}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314581544.5344911, "message": "I like the issues under Memories (is that OK to look?) Truth/Falshood Evidence/Suspicion", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989318}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314582128.861418, "message": "In both examples (memory and understanding) you're adding stuff to it that isn't in the story -- interpretations to make the storyform fit rather than a storyform that fits.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989435}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314581879.3260479, "message": "Flynn' dream is based on his memories of his childhood.  It seems to be what drives him.  Memories are recollections and are subjective.  His memories of being Eugene Fitzherbert is of being poor and boring and unlovable(dare I say) So he created himself in the image of Flynn Ryder, rogue, handsome and debonair.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989376}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314583248.1631191, "message": "It would have to be something that was there from the beginning and carried to the end.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989609}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314583975.6250911, "message": "That's not how Memory works in Dramatica. It has no impact at all on Rapunzel.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989697}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314582594.5812359, "message": "Ok.  When they are about to drown, he tells her his real name is Eugene Fitzherbert, which leads him to explain why he changed his name to Flynn Ryder.  It is week and it is just one or two lines so I did extrapolate a lot from that moment.  It could be used as a reason for his dream of wanting to be wealthy and shallow...\nHey, it's all I have to go on.  Can anyone else think of Memory concerns for Flynn?  Can it be about him or does it need to be something that impacts her directly?  ie. He is concerned with her memories or recollections?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989526}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314585661.4288139, "message": "Lol Mike! That's a great interpretation of the film.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989893}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314583693.176383, "message": "Maybe this is place for a song: This is the story of how I died. \nThis is a stretch but Flynn is the narrator telling the story of his memory of how he died.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989655}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314584176.9026179, "message": "Hear he doesn't want to reveal his backstory.  He is concerned with his memories and what they reveal about him so he will not share them.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989723}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314583996.9430461, "message": "Flynn Rider: Whoa, whoa, whoa! Sorry, Blondie. I don't do backstory, however I am becoming very interested in *yours.* ", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989699}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314584859.563952, "message": "At a certain point, trying to mine poorly formed movies for lessons becomes silly. I know you want to -- you have a captive audience and a bunch of people who have recently invested in the movie -- but you might end up confusing yourself. \n\nAt least, that was the road I went down.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989805}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314584912.9167769, "message": "I know that I argued for the King and Queen being the Protagonist and Jim shot that down. I still think they're the best candidate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989813}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314585031.0447249, "message": "Something I was just mulling over was, \"Okay, imagine there was an argument being made by this story... what is it?\" \n\nI couldn't really come up with one. \n\nThe best I could do was, \"Sacrifice yourself and your gifts to the most evil person around, and you'll be saved by someone who loves you.\"\n\nIt's not totally satisfying -- to me anyway -- because the argument is preposterous.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989821}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314585550.5381751, "message": "\"How does one trapped in an abusive/manipulitive relationship escape. Truely escape. mentally if not physically as well\" Abusive wives and girlfriends often return to the relationship they feel so worthless.  F: \"So why haven't you tried to leave before.\"  She doesn't answer. F: \"And you're going to go back?\" R: \"No!...yes...it's complicated.\"  To me that is what the story is about.  Would it be Gothel is the IC?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989876}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314585730.2143469, "message": "Isn't that also The Little Mermaid?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989899}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314585762.5898161, "message": "Ariel gives her voice to Octopus-lady, and the Prince ultimately gets her out of that?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989905}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314585863.4569719, "message": "This is why we are a Mulan-only household.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989915}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314587476.867974, "message": "If you're building an argument off his name-change, then I would say he either has a Concern of The Past or of The Preconscious (how people react to his name). \n\nIf we think he's a do-er, he can't have a Concern of Memory or The Preconscious, fyi.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990098}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314586903.7249911, "message": "He went to get them off his tail.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990000}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314587203.5827689, "message": "@MikeDerk LOL Either that or \"The Iceman Cometh\" seriously.  Tangled starts with a single drop of Sunlight that falls to the earth and ends with a tear drop from the girl who was born with the sundrop flower soup in her blood.  Kinda poetic.  Just for the sake of argument, Flynn's concern is Memory.  It is there even if ever so slight.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990051}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314586401.9717491, "message": "\"Sacrifice yourself for the one you love.\" So because it is all fixed magically with the tear it is a tale.  So the gift of the magi is a story and this is a tale.  If the tear didn't bring him back would it be a story?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989962}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314586882.957515, "message": "...and why did Flynn go to the thug twins when he was on the boat having a special moment with Rapunzel?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1989996}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314590394.2089331, "message": "I am using the short definitions from the program. And I know I am extrapolating his painful memories of his childhood from just two or three lines. So o am playing fill in the holes of an incomplete story. As far as my own interpretation, I would rather be on the same page so if u think I am misusing terms I will take that seriously. Thank you. I trust your judgement.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990522}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314587019.4681871, "message": "The movie isn't a story for many reasons. It has no overall goal -- \"see the lights\" is wrapped up too soon. \"Get Rapunzel back\" isn't vigorously pursued. \n\nThe argument between Rapunzel and Flynn... who wins out? They both change, which would seem to say that neither one had much conviction, and that's no good.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990020}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314587135.280839, "message": "\"Gift of the Magi\" is probably too short to be a complete story, but it could still have a better structure than Tangled.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990042}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314587636.260129, "message": "FWIW, I had the OS in Situation (missing princess) and him in Physics -- escaping capture, essentially. That gives him a Concern of Understanding...\n\n(This is in a storyform I whipped up without really thinking too hard -- so don't take it very seriously.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990121}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314587088.5948069, "message": "As for the Deus Ex Machina ending... I would assume that automatically makes something into a tale, but I'd rather go dissect Euripides before making that judgment.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990033}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314589113.1528111, "message": "Storyforms don't require this much work. When they work, they work.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990358}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314588668.9604051, "message": "I am just going to go for it.  Rapunzel's concern is the Past.  This is a question. Does she need to be consciously aware that her concern is the past?  As the protagonist she is concerned with when her life will begin. Who she was in the past is what binds her.  IF she were not the lost princess or kidnapped mother Gothel wouldn't be hiding her(although Gothel would still be keeping her all to herself).  Her issue is 'Prediction\" a predetermination of a future state of affairs.  Her prediction is if she stays locked in this tower her life will never begin. Rapunzel is driven by change. I think this fits well.  She is determined to change her situation.  Her unique ability is 'interdiction' an effort to change a predetermined course.  Once she realizes she will never get what she wants from gothel she puts her unique ability into action, though, held back by her fatal flaw, 'conditioning' her esponses based training from mother Gothel. Her symptom is perception, the way things seem to be (those lights on my birthday, what are they? Stars?) She response with actuality(she finds out what the stars actually are but it doesn't fulfill her need)  When her drive is squelched at the end by giving into inertia (we'll go back to just the way it use to be, I promise) her judgement is bad.  But that is a decision and the story cannot end with a decision.  The action of Flynn destroys the Gothel and once again we have change but Flynn is dead Flynn changed (good) but is dead (bad). Rapunzel gave into inertia(bad) but the action of cutting off her hair set her free (good) The story is over.  Wait, we could wait for her to go back to her family, eventually fall in love again (I mean, that's real life, right?) but this is a Dysney fairy tale and who has time for all of that.  Use the tear from the real Grimm's fairy tale and give us a fricken happen ending.  Thank you.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990304}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314589258.558322, "message": "I hear you but I am having fun.  Do you see any validity or am I driving you crazy.  I really like how her unique ability of interdiction and critical flaw of conditioning work in explaining her freaking out  and being so conflicted.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990372}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314589377.376754, "message": "In addition, there are many misconceptions you have over some if the terms -- Prediction and how the Critical Flaw works -- that you need to get a handle on before going all out like this. I would check out the Contextual Examples of Prediction as an Issue and see how the examples of Critical Flaws work in the example files. You're making connections and assumptions that aren't there. Personally I would try and find films that have great stories to study. See how the good ones work, why they work, before trying to make a tale mean something more than it is.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990386}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314589973.9843979, "message": "I guess I would say this, if you're just having fun then go for it. Have at it. Use Dramatica as you see fit it, get inspired by it and start writing. But know that it's your own interpretation of Dramatica and you might have a hard time finding people to carry on the conversation with you. They have no point of reference, no common ground, to discuss these matters. Your argument for Flynns concern of Memory is to use the term as subject matter rather than a dramatic item that supports the story's message.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990480}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314592909.898524, "message": "@sam_potter  The abusive track means Gothel is the antagonist, not the IC.  The lesson of this Disney film is to teach the kids to recognize the abusive mind games and dialogue.  That is extremely developed, everything else is a sketch.  I felt the whacking of her hair was the lesson, end it and move on.  It was not written, perfectly.  However, I went to see it because it had been highly praised by a mother.  I assume, now, this is one of those films that requires parents' dialogue after the movie.  Maybe that was their point.  Disney did announce that it was the last princess movie they were to make.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990943}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314591810.4011929, "message": "One of the benefits of Dramatica is the vocabulary. It's precise. \n\nLajos Egri spends over a page of his book saying, \"when so and so says this, he means this.\" It's one of the things that has held back dramatic theory.\n\nSo, learn dramatica's terminology. It's not easy. I don't get it all yet. But it really helps.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990787}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314591949.758388, "message": "@MikeDerk what do u recommend as the best source or best way to learn the terminology? The program? The book? Internet?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990801}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314593055.5442541, "message": "@sam_potter   I like going to the software program, reading the story examples of storyforming points.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990964}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314592713.4339399, "message": "Still filling in my fan fiction storyform.  So if Flynn's concern were memory ( and this weak argument is only based on 2 or 3 lines about his childhood he would rather nobody knew about to protect his reputation) His issue would be evidence. The area of Flynn's greatest impact. He does a lot of evidence gathering on Rapunzel. Why she never has left. The over bearing mother, etc.  All the evidence supports his belief that the symptom or the apparent problem to be solved is DESIRE.  If he can just resolve her desires (seeing the lights) or play on her fears(disappointing her mother) he can get her back quickly to her tower and get his crown.  He also thinks he can solve the problem of anything he desires with his abilities of charm and cunning but in this story it leaves him empty handed.  I have Flynn's problem being 'Self Aware' his dream is to be alone on an island that he owns.  He is very self absorbed unaware or unconcerned with others around him unless it affects his wants and needs.  By the end his true personal problem is solved as be becomes \"Aware\" Truly conscious of others outside himself.  Taking himself out of the equation some what.\nI am proposing his unique ability is Suspicion.  This seems to serve him well in tight situations. His critical flaw is his \"sense of self\" He has an inflated sense of self and seeks to protect that lest anyone find out his true self.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1990919}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314594064.3098991, "message": "@sam_potter Everything helps. Use the program. Use the contextual examples. Use this place the way @ScreenwritingScreenwriter does, asking specific questions. Listen to the podcasts, including the Embroideries, because that's where you actually get to hear people struggle with terms and get explanations.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1991086}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314594100.088253, "message": "I think it also helps to do everything in concurrence with writing or at least outlining a project. Then what you learn actually means something relevant.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1991094}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314607409.175065, "message": "Oh, some years ago I went to a few weekend workshops at the Screenplay Systems/Write Bros building in Burbank.  I got a few free tickets in the good old days of big rewards by airlines.  I dragged my husband, along for company, and it unexpectedly bonded us in the dramatic arts, unexpected because he is not an academic nor a writer.  Everyone should go to at least one one those weekend experiences, after reading the theory book.  It was the greatest fun, and took the fear away.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1991989}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314663143.179039, "message": "@sam_potter no problem at all. I would say you summed up what I was trying to say quite well. And you didn't come off badly -- it's almost like that thing where too much knowledge can be a bad thing, where people know about costs and critical flaws and symptoms and so on but because that stuff is so specific you can easily convince yourself that it is accurate. Top down usually works best.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1997898}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314662483.194293, "message": "I read my posts (or some of them) this morning.  I feel the need to apologize for 'spewing'.  I must have been a bit manic and what I thought was playful last night looks to me today as belligerence.  Let me see if I understand what Jim was trying to tell me.  1>When giving examples for my choices I used a lot of inferences instead of actual examples from the movie and I was using elements of the levels below my choices to make my arguments for my choices which can give me a false sense of accuracy.  2>I really need to get familiar with dramatica terms.  Again, I am sorry everyone for being an #$@*&@le.  I know there must be more points I missed.  I had too much invested in it. I shouldn't have locked myself inside all day waiting for posts, waiting for my life to begin.   WAITING  WAITING!... ok there I go trying to be cute again.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1997783}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314672839.7678699, "message": "@sam_potter Enthusiasm is rarely ugly.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1999345}, {"user_id": 39675, "stars": [], "topic_id": 44165, "date_created": 1314685350.8644581, "message": "@sam_potter   MikeDerk is right about enthusiasm being rarely ugly.  Silence is what gets to us <G>.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2000855}]