convore.json/groups/designers-and-open-source/brainstorming-how-to-foster-a-design-community-in-open-source/messages.json

[{"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300880650.3732021, "message": "Some background: I was recently appointed to Django's core development team as a design lead/advocate, with a wide mandate to kick ass and take names.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416318}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300880974.076864, "message": "your thoughts on how best to foster involvement of people from the design sphere", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416350}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300880728.2753689, "message": "One of my high-level goals is figuring out how to attract designers to Django, and (evil cackle) generally foster more design involvement in Open Source.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416322}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300880941.891645, "message": "What I'm after:", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416347}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300881051.628155, "message": "I'm (mis)using the term \"design\" to refer to a wide spectrum of people whose contributions are not code; this includes usability, UX, UI, IA, and yes, visual designers too.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416355}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300880800.494395, "message": "As a designer/developer hybrid, I hate the false dichotomy between code and pixels, and constantly evangelize the idea that people on both sides of the aisle can learn the fundamentals of the other discipline.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416333}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300881103.9906919, "message": "Django benefits from the fact that frontend developers already come into contact with it, so it's not something completely foreign.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416360}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300881219.3081081, "message": "There's already a culture of good documentation, and there's good awareness of the value of non-code contributions (doc contributions are highly prized commodities.)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416364}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300881316.229002, "message": "So really, what processes (and tools) have you used which have proven effective? Strategies? I'm open to anything, and would like Django to be a shining example of designer/developer collaboration.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416370}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300883643.6644349, "message": "so, at the moment, I'm working on what I'm calling a Social Architecture Initiative for Drupal, code name Prairie (http://groups.drupal.org/prairie-initiative)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416666}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884272.354578, "message": "so, even if you do start encouraging people to think about design early in the process,  you need to make sure that there are designers who are willing and able to answer the call (and that there's a way to actually get the call out)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416728}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884299.352133, "message": "yes, but getting that critical mass is the problem. see above re: attrition rate.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416732}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884430.2898879, "message": "well, having looked at both of those options for Drupal, the direction I'm taking is to try to reshape some of the exisitng tools.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416741}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884552.0218511, "message": "and using separate venues would mean a harder time setting that tone again.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416755}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300883500.6543491, "message": "here are my current thoughts based on experience with the Drupal community (Roy, who is also here, will have a useful perspective on this too):", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416646}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300883592.2844939, "message": "in Drupal-land at the moment I'm trying to spread a meme of not trying to attract designers, but rather to get our attrition rate under control.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416659}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300883706.5963359, "message": "this will benefit the entire community (hopefully) but making it a more friendly, effective place to contribute - but one of the side effects I'm hoping to achieve is to specifically make it a better place to contribute as a non-coder.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416671}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884222.34096, "message": "yes, but I don't think it's intended disrepectfully - mostly they don't know how to make use of us", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416716}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884230.5625291, "message": "also we can be hard to get hold of when they want us", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416719}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884370.016906, "message": "or whether to provide separate venues for their contributions", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416738}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300883654.582629, "message": "I'll have to lurk for a bit, going into a meeting", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416667}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300883539.2255931, "message": "you can go crazy trying to attract designers (and I use that term loosely too) to an open source community but if the environment is not designer friendly, you won't keep them", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416654}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300883615.8581519, "message": "we've had plenty of good designers come in, try to help, and run screaming from the pain the community and Drupal's way of working has inflicted.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416661}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300883792.7341709, "message": "Oh hai! Reading up.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416683}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300883671.8204589, "message": "but yeah, hi. and I'll be back with some thoughts", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416668}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300883759.6759181, "message": "yoroy - *waves*", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416678}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300883972.1993859, "message": "@leisa: it sounds like it's not just a tools thing, but trying to shift perception of value inherent in non-code contributions?", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416692}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300883994.2763281, "message": "e.g. the drupal community is at worst hostile, at best indifferent?", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416695}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884053.7568381, "message": "Assuming best intent, it's quite often just that the way that designers and developers approach problem solving is quite different... and we don't often have an appreciation for the way each others brains work", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416699}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884089.336884, "message": "the drupal community is full of awesome people who don't want to proliferate bad design or bad user experience - I think most people are sold on the *idea* of good design UX (again, may be being optimistic)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416703}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884091.4943011, "message": "Yep, apologies. Meant 'hostile' in a professional sense, no bad intent implied.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416704}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884111.664088, "message": "but as to how that actually plays out - what doing design involves - that's foreign territory for most.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416707}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884144.576474, "message": "re: hostile - have learned to try to neutralise language as much as possible and veer on the positive side in order to minimise personal attacks ;)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416708}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884165.399344, "message": "Is it just the old chestnut of developers thinking design is a coat of paint which gets applied at the end?", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416710}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884196.653656, "message": "so, part of what I'm going to try to do when it comes to redesigning our collaboration tools is to try to create a space for the design to happen that people are constantly reminded of whenever they're starting a new project/trying to crack an existing problem", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416713}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884211.7225959, "message": "Interesting.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416714}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884308.779006, "message": "We deal with timezones and critical personalities being offline \"right now\" already, and it seems to work well enoguh.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416733}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300885877.8882411, "message": "and this: http://www.disambiguity.com/drupalcommunity-model-for-design/", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416970}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300885901.5923171, "message": "not sure how well that maps to Django - might be useful tho", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416979}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884271.3509271, "message": "I suspect that this is something that would be solved above a critical mass of design contributors", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416727}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884318.6967051, "message": "(regarding code)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416734}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884355.1265841, "message": "well, not sure what it's like in Django land, but in Drupal that would be true if you knew who to call on for something.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416735}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884487.932878, "message": "Right. I also don't want to send the message that there's really that much of a difference", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416747}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884493.1781631, "message": "forcing them to use the existing tools is only a short term solution tho", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416749}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884519.254509, "message": "exactly - the more I explore the problems that designers experience in Drupal-land, the more developers sing out saying that they have exactly the same problems.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416750}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884526.1583481, "message": "django has a strict-but-good contribution policy that has set the right tone in terms of caution, responsibility, quality", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416752}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884527.700506, "message": "we have much more in common than we have in difference", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416753}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884731.8321609, "message": "There's one visible component, which is the admin", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416767}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884862.5739441, "message": "the rest is far less well-defined, and cuts across large parts of django", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416789}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300885995.895447, "message": "@leisa: fantastic. Thank you!", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416992}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884355.2559021, "message": "One of the things that I've been wrestling with is deciding whether or not to try and shoehorn the design community I want to attract into django's existing tools", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416736}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884445.40976, "message": "there's definitely a place for separation - a place for designers to talk about design things", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416743}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300886224.881608, "message": "Sweet, applied.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417024}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884385.130863, "message": "as far as design goes, there are really only 2-3 people who have managed to stay in the community for long enough for the developers to know that they even exist (waves to yoroy again)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416739}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884471.396102, "message": "but working with the developers is actually incredibly important so separation can be a dangerous path to go down", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416744}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884641.6195531, "message": "my pleasure - it's something I think about a lot. And have done for the past couple of years.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416760}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884575.1044779, "message": "Aside: it's a rare pleasure to have this discussion -- thank you for taking the time.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416757}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884939.1870601, "message": "Are there more of these sorts of examples in drupal? What I'm (haltingly) getting at is a list of areas where I can point designers to and say: your help is needed here.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416808}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884946.4298339, "message": "your *ongoing* help is needed here.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416811}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884707.085109, "message": "So, switching gears a little bit:", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416764}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884718.863729, "message": "another area that I've been pondering is \"what do designers do in Django\"", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416766}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884753.1824939, "message": "but there are lots of non-visual aspects", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416771}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884759.494688, "message": "for example, django's template language", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416775}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884785.9390299, "message": "Wilson Miner was one of the founding team, and his presence at the start led to a sensible separation of concerns", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416780}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884794.2145541, "message": "and django's lovely template language", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416781}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884846.9910469, "message": "The admin is only so much \"stuff\" that can be contributed to", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416787}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884878.501467, "message": "basically, \"making sure django is attuned to the operational needs of frontend developers\"", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416790}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300886244.263449, "message": "253 members? Where are they all hiding in real life?", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417029}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300885403.0840721, "message": "@leisa: the project prairie stuff looks lovely, mining it for ideas :)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416877}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300884822.1108789, "message": "all aspects that make working with django a pleasure for frontend designers, and mitigate the headaches caused by backend/frontend stepping-on-toes.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416785}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300886196.255286, "message": "open source designers linked in group (in case the link doesn't work)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417019}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300886079.937808, "message": "If you think of anybody else you'd like to pull into the discussion, this convore group is at our disposal", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417004}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300885861.089674, "message": "some thoughts I captured earlier: http://www.disambiguity.com/5-ux-initiatives-for-drupal8/", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416965}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300886174.117456, "message": "I think Dees suggested a few other good people on Twitter", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417015}, {"user_id": 2707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300886185.739022, "message": "also, this is an under-utilised resource: http://www.linkedin.com/groups?mostPopular=&gid=3324850", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417017}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300886027.7168491, "message": "OK, you've given me plenty to chew on, and I'm out of reasonably intelligent questions.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 416997}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300886125.1308701, "message": "It might not be such a bad idea for designers who are doing open source to share their experiences.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417012}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300889914.7363529, "message": "If I understand correctly Django doesn't force any markup on you for the front-end?", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417641}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300889933.1591151, "message": "Drupal does and there's a log of ongoing effort needed from designers to get that under control", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417642}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300890186.435133, "message": "Damn you autocorrect. Frypan = drupal", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417652}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300889605.5845029, "message": "Ok, some thoughts without reading the backscroll:", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417607}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300889633.208791, "message": "- Insist on sketching, wireframes, mockups before code (prevent implementing solutions for non-existing problems)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417614}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300889639.9199059, "message": "- Focus attention and input on particular problem set(s) for a given period: \"I want your ideas on how we can improve the signup/login workflow\"", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417616}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300890282.3650701, "message": "right", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417662}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300889619.1089139, "message": "- Usability testing: its the best resource for getting *data* to back up design decisions", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417612}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300889627.3895841, "message": "- Experiment with time-boxing community input: problem definition > ideas > synthesize > execute", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417613}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300889612.4621551, "message": "- Education: showing that design *has* a process (that it is not a taste thing)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417609}, {"user_id": 24091, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300889316.666888, "message": "Have invited Thorsten from Ubuntu community. I know he has been thinking about this a lot", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417582}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300889649.207267, "message": "Now I go read up\u2026 :)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417619}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300890158.336695, "message": "Conceptually, frypan is something one would build with a framework like django. Django offers reusable bits to ease rendering of content for a given http request, but that's it.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417651}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300890224.4417901, "message": "ha!", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417655}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300890248.1335051, "message": "The only area where that statement doesn't hold true is in the admin, which is distributed w django.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417658}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300889887.584728, "message": "Yeah, there is only so much you can design for in the admin UI", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417639}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300890298.1142631, "message": "priorities! :) very good", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417664}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300890282.651439, "message": "I'm out and about with my little one, so I'll have to read up a bit later", "group_id": 7471, "id": 417663}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300894391.034821, "message": "Remove redundant descriptions, edge case documentation and other non-task focus cruft", "group_id": 7471, "id": 418275}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300894362.0980279, "message": "I'm trying to get people to focus on their interface texts too. Much to be designed there as well.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 418269}, {"user_id": 24201, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300904071.601124, "message": "see http://blog.lydiapintscher.de/2010/10/03/designed-not-to-scale/", "group_id": 7471, "id": 419377}, {"user_id": 24201, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300904019.5505681, "message": "@idan, in fedora we have a combo of a design bounty system and outreach at designer-centric events / in designer-centric forums to recruit", "group_id": 7471, "id": 419367}, {"user_id": 24201, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300909725.0978119, "message": "but they blow it out of proportion, you need to do your hw and figure out the right devs to talk to", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420138}, {"user_id": 24201, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300909609.5494239, "message": "yeh i dont see oss devs having any issues with prioritizing design work, although ive seen designers take completely the wrong tact in trying to get it worked on", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420128}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910184.691397, "message": "Well, education works both ways -- in the same way that I wouldn't expect a designer to just \"throw something together\"...", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420176}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910239.0590341, "message": "@mairin holy moly, 12 page paper of awesome.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420181}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910279.941431, "message": "I am drowning in awesome reading.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420185}, {"user_id": 24224, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910194.556133, "message": "My experience is that neither works. often, you have to slowly build up trust and need to get a feel for how the developers see the needs of the project", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420178}, {"user_id": 24224, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910283.3425851, "message": "so, getting to know each other and finding a balance between what is to be designed and what can be implemented are crucial", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420186}, {"user_id": 1797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910954.2635369, "message": "Though, the admin UX is kinda hard to navigate \u2013\u00a0there are no tiers or groups, which gets a bit unwieldly on a large project. But to answer the question... I think asking specific questions and focusing on UX problems is what gets us designers all excited to help.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420250}, {"user_id": 24224, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300909774.701581, "message": "Hi! Like Ivanka, said, I've been thinking alot about design and open-source. Much of that culminated in http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2011/03/10/design-boost/", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420140}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910909.7373321, "message": "@idan: what does impedance mean?", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420244}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300909086.0963061, "message": "This is sheer serendipity: http://smarterware.org/7550/designers-women-and-hostility-in-open-source", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420088}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911095.018043, "message": "@bryan good point.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420269}, {"user_id": 24224, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300909871.5993249, "message": "With a background in industrial design, i was lucky to get into open-source via collaborating with a developer (sometimes 2), so getting experience in small scale", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420149}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911245.774097, "message": "@idan: the dev/design match isn't working on a big scale yet within Drupal, but it is starting to work pretty well within the hard core.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420286}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911646.136739, "message": "for 2: www.d7ux.org was the communications hub", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420360}, {"user_id": 24201, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300909699.1039851, "message": "i could see how someone would take gina and vitorio's stance on that though", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420133}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910780.7184131, "message": "OK, brain mostly resynced.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420220}, {"user_id": 177, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911150.9490471, "message": "@idan: I love the community initiative ideas, so much so that I would love to see a \"django open source project needs a designer\" site, that would serve as both a place for us to go to be able to help as well as a trophy of successful pairings (like you and DJDT).", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420277}, {"user_id": 177, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911218.611413, "message": "@idan: Once that is fostered, I think a lot more designers would be more comfortable with tackling things like the (OMG EPIC) admin as they'd know \"the language\" and \"the process\" a bit better.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420283}, {"user_id": 177, "stars": [{"date_created": 1300912341.78897, "user_id": 205}], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911430.1459579, "message": "@idan: I think we need to start in the community where it's worked already, like with DJDT and RTFD. Foster a community where design is welcome and needed, then start applying that to core Django.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420327}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911476.6933861, "message": "@kaseykelly your comments are not unnoticed -- as a frontend developer working with django, I'm very curious to hear your take", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420330}, {"user_id": 177, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911539.154484, "message": "@idan: Well, then we would have already won.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420339}, {"user_id": 24201, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300909956.5322621, "message": "i wrote a 12 page paper last year on the topic lol http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/contributing-to-free-open-source-software-as-a-designer/", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420160}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911129.7259779, "message": "yup. lack of shared vocabulary is an issue", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420275}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911735.563786, "message": "Though Leisa is still involved as you noticed", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420369}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911775.3837399, "message": "@bryan very much want & thanks!", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420373}, {"user_id": 177, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911578.619591, "message": "Exactly.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420346}, {"user_id": 177, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911588.176837, "message": "I guess that's what I was trying to say. xD", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420347}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [{"date_created": 1300912369.471148, "user_id": 205}], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911539.600744, "message": "DjDT and RTFD are both great examples of the kinds of contributions I want to encourage", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420340}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911604.9427941, "message": "s/kind of/exactly.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420353}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911811.599525, "message": "@yoroy sorry to be clueless, but I don't actually know your role in drupal yet :)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420375}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911265.4522519, "message": "@yoroy can you share some numbers of people?", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420289}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911324.2080259, "message": "@bryan I'm torn between wanting to set up a dedicated \"Django Designers\" resource vs trying to integrate designers into the existing fora/tools", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420297}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911327.6782129, "message": "(read: trac)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420298}, {"user_id": 177, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911354.918262, "message": "Well, I think it needs to be more than that.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420303}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911355.4536929, "message": "@yoroy there are > 100 *core* devs on drupal?", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420304}, {"user_id": 24224, "stars": [{"date_created": 1300911401.6076789, "user_id": 133}], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911389.998122, "message": "@idan if separated, make it about the activity, not the role. design is for everyone", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420319}, {"user_id": 177, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911757.315304, "message": "@idan: I have to take off, but you know where to find me. :) I'd love to talk more about how we can get this \"matchmaking service\" to work as a good first step towards getting people in and interested.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420370}, {"user_id": 24224, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910103.847389, "message": "I've seen many people coming in on some channel or list, either asking what they could work on in the most open way, or having some mockups, with some expectation that there are developers just waiting to implement them.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420171}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910636.6641281, "message": "/me dug up this link: http://www.pilpi.net/software/moodle/2010/09/30/masters-thesis-about-moodle-and-open-source-usability/", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420207}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910636.897897, "message": "Quickly reading back up to figure out where I left off", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420208}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910734.2392371, "message": "yes @ \"often, you have to slowly build up trust and need to get a feel for how the developers see the needs of the project\"", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420217}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911270.260896, "message": "The ux team is just too small", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420290}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911298.2632899, "message": "heh. about 1 ux designer for every 100 developers maybe?", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420295}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911365.8409331, "message": "there's basically 2 ux designers who are in the know and are known and will be asked for feedback", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420308}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911412.141397, "message": "@idan: \u00b11000 people contributed to Drupal 7. But with the typical long tail", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420325}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911428.7560461, "message": "top 30 doing 50% of the work", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420326}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911473.225059, "message": "And for D7, both me and @bojhan are in that top 30 of contributors", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420329}, {"user_id": 1797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911667.8737521, "message": "@idan yeah, sorry for veering off", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420362}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911883.640408, "message": "I basically bootstrapped ux team in Drupal", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420388}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910974.6706331, "message": "Yep, me fail.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420253}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911032.81919, "message": "@yoroy \"impedance mismatch\" is an idiom used in software indicating that two things aren't operating the same way", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420265}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911490.9351981, "message": "@kaseykelly I think I'll spin off another convore topic here for that.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420332}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911878.8124969, "message": "Gotcha.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420387}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910620.985621, "message": "hi idan", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420205}, {"user_id": 1797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910787.09848, "message": "I'm a django designer, who's definitely a designer first and a frontend dev second. I love the templating language, and the layered structure of building a DJ site", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420221}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910538.5670111, "message": "@yoroy, welcome back.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420200}, {"user_id": 177, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910997.805228, "message": "@idan: I tried to skim at best since I'm a little pressed for time, but my \"recommendation\" would be to \"start small.\"", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420257}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911275.8545179, "message": "how many core devs, how many designers", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420292}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910918.031532, "message": "@yoroy it's not exactly comparable to django, in the sense that drupal requires actual direct design contributions on a much larger scale", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420245}, {"user_id": 209, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910931.9396119, "message": "It's an electrical engineering term... probably not a good analogy for a designer conversation", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420247}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911065.083261, "message": "\"not on the same wavelength\" would be a better way of putting it.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420266}, {"user_id": 24224, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911236.198396, "message": "one way to start small could be to see if you can pair a new designer with an already established developer. after one or a few such pioneers ...", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420285}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911409.9324789, "message": "@thorwil excellent point.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420323}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910667.4837661, "message": "though I'm not good at thesis-reading so not sure of the value :)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420211}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910868.742923, "message": "@yoroy from the little I've been able to read so far about drupal and design, it sounds like there's some impedance mismatch between the developers and the designers, and integrating the two communities hasn't really worked well so far.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420236}, {"user_id": 24224, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911018.3658719, "message": "@idan it won't be easy, but I think ideally, we would get where designers and developers are all thought of as systematic problem solvers, designers not afraid of technicalities and developers realizing that they can't help it, but must be designers of a kind, too", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420261}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911630.959969, "message": "@idan: Mark Boulton and Leisa were hired to 1. redesign drupal.org. 2. redesign Drupal, the software.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420357}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300910943.1166589, "message": "ah, the one on the back of speakers :)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420249}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911387.154146, "message": "I remember Mark Boulton being involved, but I don't know to what degree...", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420317}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911520.655118, "message": "@bryan the thing is, I'm not sure how much there is to be done in \"core django\" per se", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420335}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911542.463382, "message": "There's quite a lot more themers/front-enders/visual designers around. But for pure visual, there's actually little to work on for the core product.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420341}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [{"date_created": 1300911580.5458159, "user_id": 177}], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911569.060029, "message": "e.g. matchmaking services. \"Go forth and beautify/improve\"", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420345}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911599.116349, "message": "It's kind of how I got where I am now.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420348}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911710.2698369, "message": "bojhan and I helped them translate their ideas into the community and continued the work when their paid time was up and they had to let go.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420366}, {"user_id": 1797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911789.0044999, "message": "on it. thanks :)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420374}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913371.203737, "message": "When you work with a \"designer\" (must break this down, actually, into the right profession)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420616}, {"user_id": 209, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913995.5222399, "message": "so \"yes, the analogy fits\"", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420756}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300914520.0635531, "message": "@idan it's huge and deep and chaotic but, yeah :)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420881}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911759.800946, "message": "@kaseykelly check out the other topic I just started", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420371}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300912568.782558, "message": "@ericholscher did they contact you?", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420471}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911847.442241, "message": "@idan: UX maintainer for D7, kind of like you'll be doing for Django", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420383}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913033.9196999, "message": "BUT", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420550}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913281.857744, "message": "with an emphasis on learning what the other's profession is about", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420606}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913466.485271, "message": "We're really trying to promote happy marriages here through a bit of education", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420629}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913591.4852259, "message": "Django has a few \"obvious\" things", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420642}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913618.0336881, "message": "but they are few, and it won't be feasible to have more than a handful of actual contributors", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420649}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913671.942591, "message": "Yes and no.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420671}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913743.1558061, "message": "And in reality, my goal isn't necessarily to have lots of designers contributing to django core", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420696}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913818.350184, "message": "I want to avoid that outcome.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420713}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300914103.4290769, "message": "Right.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420775}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300914149.8004251, "message": "that's what I mean by matchmaking outside of core: I want people writing useful things to get help.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420787}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300911973.960032, "message": "I'll have to get bojhan in here as well, we're a team of 2", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420398}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300912115.775676, "message": "Leisa did a good write up on the Drupal agenda for the next release cycle: http://www.disambiguity.com/5-ux-initiatives-for-drupal8/", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420403}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300912955.945051, "message": "First, it has PR benefits (\"look, new site dedicated to design\")", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420530}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [{"date_created": 1300913013.5719781, "user_id": 205}], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300912992.6707611, "message": "Second, while I'm mostly blind to this by now, trac and the mailinglists are a scary, scary place for nondevelopers", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420538}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913132.6533811, "message": "I like the idea of making the site about the activity, not the profession", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420574}, {"user_id": 205, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300912445.7930701, "message": "(for those who don't know, RTFD = http://readthedocs.org/) -- Speaking as the maintainer of that site, we've been really lucky in that we've actually attracted 3 different designers. I think having a very obvious front-facing design focus has helped (the site is about documentation, which is themable)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420452}, {"user_id": 205, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300912676.2958419, "message": "When we created the site, the designer was a friend, then we had another who showed up randomly in IRC, and the third was a friend of a friend at a Python sprint in PDX looking for something to help with", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420489}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913153.889992, "message": "design activities: very good to focus on that", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420578}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913855.591536, "message": "So, Drupal has modules (extensions), how's that for Django? Are there plugins or the like that have UI components?", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420720}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300912853.569355, "message": "OK, based on stuff that we've talked about so far, starting to come up with a plan of action. @yoroy (and others), opinions welcome:", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420514}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913015.2939789, "message": "We need to provide a softer landing for them.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420544}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913019.940428, "message": "yes and yes :)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420547}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913037.585777, "message": "Give people a place they can (make their) own", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420551}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913153.4399059, "message": "So to that end, content:", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420577}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913181.6365869, "message": "gotta learn how to make the good ones", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420584}, {"user_id": 205, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300912540.5748971, "message": "We also started with a good design to start with, so other designers were signaled that it is a place where they are appreciated and needed, I think", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420464}, {"user_id": 205, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300912860.555243, "message": "As a data point, the other 2 projects being worked on at the sprint were Fabric and Pypy, which have no real design needs. So if we didn't have something for him to do, we could have easily lost another designer interested in OSS.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420515}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913066.656064, "message": "I like the approach of making it open to developers as well. In the end the goal is matchmaking, both on a personal level and on a project level", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420555}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300912932.2759171, "message": "First -- as much as I don't like the idea of segregating developers and designers by having a separate \"address\" (literal and metaphorical) for design & django, I think a new location's merits outweighs the drawbacks", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420526}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913070.529166, "message": "e.g. work together on a thing", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420557}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913080.671334, "message": "or just get to know each other so when you need each other down the road...", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420561}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913168.6505051, "message": "developers make design decisions *all the time*", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420581}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913199.138783, "message": "right.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420588}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913329.642894, "message": "tests and documentation etc etc.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420613}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913413.9461601, "message": "they're going to be concerned with audience, with use-cases, with legibility, with intended usage scenarios, etc", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420621}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913541.4936409, "message": "I think defining some things to work on up front would help.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420637}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913628.599468, "message": "forms, the admin", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420653}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913675.8757811, "message": "The admin, yes", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420673}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913214.4191201, "message": "So two major content types so far:", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420591}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913220.3891461, "message": "Education and Matchmaking", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420592}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913320.002203, "message": "and practical things -- when you work with a developer, they're going to be concerned with code review and commits and branches and all this version control stuff.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420612}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913448.907876, "message": "This is really just setting the stage for the other half of the site, which is matchmaking", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420627}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913482.595304, "message": "so people can group up and be happy working with each other", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420632}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913513.6280539, "message": "And make the process of finding what to work on easy, so the barrier to entry isn't high", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420635}, {"user_id": 209, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913979.3162811, "message": "@yoroy there are reusable apps (facebook registration), and sort of \"finished projects\" (read the docs)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420753}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300914037.21626, "message": "help people pick their battles etc. large enough to matter, small enough to win", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420764}, {"user_id": 209, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300914148.780072, "message": "Yeah, neither are drupal modules usually", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420786}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913239.677134, "message": "Education: the rudiments of design for developers, and the rudiments of development for designers", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420598}, {"user_id": 24224, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913789.3153579, "message": "thoughts like that are why i like to set up a hierarchy of goals", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420706}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913415.353816, "message": "when you work with a designer, they will tend to think horizontally, not care about implementation details and (ideally) generate multiple ideas before picking the one to develop further\u2026", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420622}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913582.5992069, "message": "Agreed.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420640}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913660.0250239, "message": "those sound like very large things?", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420666}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913706.953059, "message": "but I can't imagine working on it with more than 2-3 designers", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420684}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300914128.440562, "message": "These reusable apps are not part of django itself", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420784}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913609.9089119, "message": "Try to work on X, Y or Z and you can be sure I, (idan) will review it and help you move further on it", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420647}, {"user_id": 205, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300914264.6164351, "message": "I'd love to be one of your use cases for the design site :)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420817}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300914382.3241341, "message": "@ericholscher as one of django's most visible apps, RTFD is an obvious place to point people.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420842}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300914428.4188199, "message": "@yoroy perusing d7ux.org for ideas to, erm, appropriate.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420851}, {"user_id": 24201, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300914253.557847, "message": "thorwil - that's totally the wrong expectation :)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420814}, {"user_id": 1797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913711.7271061, "message": "sometimes just the process of putting together a design brief is really helpful for direction. What's the real problem you want a designer to solve? Then you'll get several people to chew on ideas, some will offer ideas, and a smaller percentage will help *do*", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420686}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913751.4465489, "message": "I want django as an ecosystem to flourish", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420699}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913792.9781799, "message": "If I make it about contributing to django, 50 designers will show up at my door, 40 of them will have nothing to do, and I've wasted 40 people-worths of good energy", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420708}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913923.9806449, "message": "I kind of made my name in the community by helping out designing a ui for a popular module. Only then did I dare venture into core development :)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420738}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300913759.0675249, "message": "yep", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420702}, {"user_id": 24201, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300914298.359556, "message": "@idan LOL i'm glad it could help", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420828}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300914115.6123071, "message": "The analogy sort-of fits", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420780}, {"user_id": 205, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300914251.2681229, "message": "We have a couple of really good design problems on RTD at the moment, actually", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420813}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300914215.4510591, "message": "There's not actually a ton of \"thinking\" work inside django; once a plan is in place for revamping the admin, then there's a decent amount of work that just needs doing", "group_id": 7471, "id": 420802}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300917579.2367671, "message": "OK -- thanks for your feedback, @yoroy", "group_id": 7471, "id": 421290}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300917591.813288, "message": "have been furiously taking notes and such", "group_id": 7471, "id": 421292}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300918569.2220969, "message": "@idan, it's nice to talk about this, we aren't many (yet) :-)", "group_id": 7471, "id": 421355}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300918595.4533479, "message": "@yoroy definitely!", "group_id": 7471, "id": 421360}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300918619.4498241, "message": "Feeling pretty lucky to have found some others to talk to & learn from.", "group_id": 7471, "id": 421366}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300918981.2563281, "message": "@yoroy what are you on twitter?", "group_id": 7471, "id": 421385}, {"user_id": 24051, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300919054.5310421, "message": "@idan : @royscholten is me", "group_id": 7471, "id": 421388}, {"user_id": 133, "stars": [], "topic_id": 14674, "date_created": 1300919478.084249, "message": "ok, summary of links and stuff so far: https://gist.github.com/884171", "group_id": 7471, "id": 421412}]