convore.json/groups/django-community/does-the-rails-community-tend-to-push-testing-more/messages.json

[{"user_id": 4156, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297662605.5898011, "user_id": 960}, {"date_created": 1297736750.377187, "user_id": 4391}], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297654759.757432, "message": "From where I stand, Django's testing culture is \"you really should test, and we'll try to make it easy for you to do it correctly\", whereas Rails' is more \"you don't have tests? GTFO\"", "group_id": 81, "id": 95997}, {"user_id": 9307, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297654872.316695, "message": "Maybe Rails emphasizes testing more because they're so fond of monkeypatching magic.  Or maybe the causality runs the other direction?", "group_id": 81, "id": 96004}, {"user_id": 4219, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297655007.787782, "message": "i think its just how the culture is with rails....in my humble opinion :)", "group_id": 81, "id": 96016}, {"user_id": 9307, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297655016.9074681, "message": "@alex I'm a fan of nose but haven't tried py.test.  What am I missing?", "group_id": 81, "id": 96018}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297727617.7937491, "user_id": 230}], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297654517.954576, "message": "I'd say so. Not only are their testing tools stronger in general (which is both a cause and effect IMO) but they do seem to just have more of a testing culture, judging by blog entries / the average project / books / etc", "group_id": 81, "id": 95967}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297655027.2350221, "message": "@alex I think you're still missing the point of the question ;)", "group_id": 81, "id": 96020}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297654567.8813939, "message": "dunno I think Python has some really strong testing communities, pypy, twisted, django", "group_id": 81, "id": 95975}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297654657.9597709, "message": "@alex The question was not \"does Python have a strong testing ethos\", though.", "group_id": 81, "id": 95991}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297654574.116014, "message": "at least internally all are strong testers", "group_id": 81, "id": 95977}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297654899.140532, "message": "@btubbs That's probably *a* factor but I'm not sure if it's the primary one", "group_id": 81, "id": 96008}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297654931.2881961, "message": "Use py.test, that is all :)", "group_id": 81, "id": 96011}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297655039.6846721, "message": "/me wonders if @garybernhardt has made it on here yet", "group_id": 81, "id": 96021}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297654873.4604089, "message": "And I'd still definitely argue that toolwise Rails comes out on top, it feels like they have more strongly active test libraries than we do.", "group_id": 81, "id": 96005}, {"user_id": 9307, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297655200.510339, "user_id": 4156}, {"date_created": 1297662002.1850009, "user_id": 275}, {"date_created": 1297690738.20766, "user_id": 7179}, {"date_created": 1297695869.5026529, "user_id": 209}, {"date_created": 1297713670.307961, "user_id": 7381}], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297655120.6270571, "message": "/me thinks convore needs /me-style formatting", "group_id": 81, "id": 96028}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297662871.20837, "message": "@alex Spoken by someone who's never done it I presume?  BDD when used for high level stuff gives you amazing docs.", "group_id": 81, "id": 96466}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297662585.5085101, "message": "@alex You can't claim that Django has a strong testing community.  A bunch of blog posts about how to extend TestClient is one thing, still having less than 70% test coverage (last I checked at least) in the core is another.  (/me takes off troll hat, but only kinda)", "group_id": 81, "id": 96413}, {"user_id": 1, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297693772.4761219, "user_id": 4156}, {"date_created": 1297695896.4416821, "user_id": 209}, {"date_created": 1297715204.38271, "user_id": 3705}], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297662683.0536671, "message": "I would say that the Python community tends to value documentation over testing, and that the Ruby community tends to value testing over documentation.", "group_id": 81, "id": 96424}, {"user_id": 1, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297662711.540261, "message": "Just look at the sheer proliferation of relatively popular testing tools in Ruby", "group_id": 81, "id": 96435}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297674069.2269061, "user_id": 141}, {"date_created": 1297693803.6370821, "user_id": 4156}], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297662997.1551161, "message": "doctests == lazy man's docs and tests and fails at both :-)", "group_id": 81, "id": 96491}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297662634.3251481, "message": "@tswicegood we didn't always have this culture, a ton of hte untested code predates django even having a test suite", "group_id": 81, "id": 96421}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297662855.3398919, "user_id": 1}], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297662849.7826591, "message": "also BDD is retarded", "group_id": 81, "id": 96461}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297663372.56077, "message": "Yup - they have a limited purpose, but they have a purpose.  Cucumber and such are the same way.  I can't imagine writing full unit tests in them, but they're extremely useful for those stages before code has actually been written.", "group_id": 81, "id": 96608}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297662688.4451389, "message": "@bitprophet +1 one better tools.  Just look at the internals of some of the BDD libraries in Python if you need to verify that.  They're all a mess.", "group_id": 81, "id": 96430}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297662885.9485099, "message": "@alex But BDD != unit tests the same way doctests != unit tests", "group_id": 81, "id": 96469}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297662935.1031201, "message": "and doctests != docs", "group_id": 81, "id": 96474}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297662736.337827, "message": "@alex Yup - and I've submitted patches (minor, but still changes) to that old code and it was accepted w/o me writing unit tests for it.  In a Ruby project, they would have said \"that's nice, but where's the tests?\"", "group_id": 81, "id": 96438}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297662778.960201, "message": "@ericflo +1 on that.  I like docs and all, I think they're extremely important, but I really like code that I can verify does what its supposed to.", "group_id": 81, "id": 96444}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297662813.1861789, "message": "grumble, sadness about patches without tests", "group_id": 81, "id": 96451}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297662967.8453441, "message": "Actually, that's a good analogy.  BDD (a la Cucumber, not RSpec) is about higher level explanations of what the code is supposed to do.  Unit testing is about testing discrete chunks of code to verify they work as expected.", "group_id": 81, "id": 96485}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297663062.8499091, "message": "doctess are ok at being examples in documentation that happen to be executable", "group_id": 81, "id": 96513}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297663044.372607, "user_id": 1}, {"date_created": 1297663051.9639721, "user_id": 7}], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297663010.790323, "message": "Common ground!  doctests  != anything extremely useful :-)", "group_id": 81, "id": 96494}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297663037.9816251, "message": ":)", "group_id": 81, "id": 96503}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297663064.072608, "message": "nothing more", "group_id": 81, "id": 96515}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297663005.4125869, "message": "and they're bad at both", "group_id": 81, "id": 96493}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297663468.368062, "message": "See I don't see why \"Give I have entered 50 into the calculator\" is better than \"c = Calculator();\\nc.push(50)\"", "group_id": 81, "id": 96621}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297673219.7560129, "message": "BDD is exactly the same as TDD but with different labels/names for the right thing.", "group_id": 81, "id": 97188}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297674117.635905, "user_id": 141}, {"date_created": 1297715328.5088589, "user_id": 3705}], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297673310.8107629, "message": "However you don't need special tools for this. In xUnit just name your test method: \"test_should_...\" and pretend there is no \"test_\" prefix :)", "group_id": 81, "id": 97202}, {"user_id": 1782, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297674118.646636, "message": "Use freshen for BDD in Python, just a cucumber clone. I am looking for something like rspec tho.", "group_id": 81, "id": 97280}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297673261.4596701, "message": "I like BDD for this because it makes things much more obvious when you 1. read the test 2. search for the bit you need to test next 3. how to split up your testcases", "group_id": 81, "id": 97197}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297695459.2037621, "message": "@tswicegood You've gotten a patch into Django without tests? In the last couple years? I'll believe it when I see the changeset.", "group_id": 81, "id": 100272}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297710765.2929609, "message": "I'm not saying I never add tests while refactoring, but this case really is trivial", "group_id": 81, "id": 103489}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297710536.259011, "message": "@alex So you could never add tests when refactoring?  That's kind of a naive way of looking at TDD.  It's one that's common, but misguided.  In this case it's about being able to make sure that the tests continue to pass.", "group_id": 81, "id": 103447}, {"user_id": 1126, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297710977.8627591, "message": "well having \"working\" code always tends to cloud your judgement when writing tests", "group_id": 81, "id": 103536}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297710235.97698, "message": "Yeah - it was 2008 or 2009.  Doesn't look like I reported it (can't find it on Trac that way), but I submitted a fix.  It was literally a one or two line change, but I went looking for test cases around the code and there where none and I didn't want to write them myself.  Maybe things have changed since then...", "group_id": 81, "id": 103397}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297710376.626946, "message": "http://code.djangoproject.com/changeset/10223", "group_id": 81, "id": 103421}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297710444.064024, "message": "I don't see how you could ask for tests.  the TDD mantra is to start with a failing test, how do you test working code?", "group_id": 81, "id": 103434}, {"user_id": 1126, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297711000.481092, "message": "you'll end up testing for edge cases you already fixed, and forget/neglect others", "group_id": 81, "id": 103541}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297710353.5689039, "message": "They haven't changed radically since 2008, but yeah we are just a little better about testing since then", "group_id": 81, "id": 103413}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297710394.0431161, "message": "Like I said, it was trivial, but still...  I would have asked for tests to show it continued working before accepting it.", "group_id": 81, "id": 103427}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297712787.2425561, "message": "I've seen a couple cases in the last few months where patches were submitted for currently-untested code, and in every case the answer was \"Ok, so write some tests.\"", "group_id": 81, "id": 103978}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297731201.165477, "user_id": 141}], "topic_id": 5098, "date_created": 1297712753.148829, "message": "@tswicegood Ok, I believe it :-) I don't think that patch would go in today without tests.", "group_id": 81, "id": 103973}]