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convore.json/groups/dramatica/back-to-the-future/messages.json
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Kenneth Reitz add958b068 shuffle things around a bit
2012-02-21 01:15:00 -05:00

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[{"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311120543.2068651, "message": "good story to analyze? anyone interested in discussing?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1676756}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311124322.9101281, "message": "a movie I actually own! I'm not sure I'd add much to the conversation, but I'm always up for learning :)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1677211}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311134354.8649881, "message": "I would love to, but I'm going to have to sit this one out.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1678482}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311182363.8003409, "message": "I'd like to participate. Do you discuss movies here on Convore or what? I'm a newbie.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1682656}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311223991.6346769, "message": "Always willing to lurk and interject when appropriate. Im wondering if it will have anything to do with The Future :)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1687264}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311269896.6840079, "message": "My suggestion is to pick a date so we can all watch the movie, and then just start an analysis.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1691139}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311284429.5161581, "message": "i can probably get started w an analysis sometime mid-late next week if people want to try to rewatch the movie before then", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1692867}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311426972.2373259, "message": "Yes. I think the goal of Back to the future is getting back to the future.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1705627}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311426564.6592519, "message": "OK, What is the story about? Getting Marty back to his proper time?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1705607}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311429713.4703801, "message": "ha ha Marty is the main character. :o)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1705732}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311429758.9214489, "message": "Doc Brown impact?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1705738}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311430621.3074729, "message": "oops. I just jumped in without reading all the posts. you are waiting till next week. sorry. is that called jumping the shark.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1705790}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311429788.993263, "message": "Overall story is Activity", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1705741}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311430046.1606879, "message": "Success or failure would be a good debate. He gets his parents back together but not things are different. It could be a failure with a consequence of Changing Ones Nature (which feels good)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1705758}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311430500.871012, "message": "Marty's resolve. I would argue steadfast. He has dreams for his future although held back by his fears and his goal to get back to his time and still have his family (and himself) in tact. He only grows in his resolve in everything turning out well for everyone he loves.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1705787}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311437352.3016119, "message": "I think it's called jumping the gun.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1706053}, {"user_id": 30287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311457176.654783, "message": "I'm going to speculate that there are two stories in this movie, one with Marty as protagonist getting his parents together, and one with Doc as protagonist getting Marty back to the future. But I could be wrong.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1707103}, {"user_id": 30951, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311510336.038528, "message": "Personally would never have gone with the two story approach on this film, because the goals of each character are too mixed. Marty can't achieve his goal unless doc does his, and Doc's is pointless if Marty doesn't get parents together.\n\nI'd go with both Doc's as IC, Marty as MC and protagonist, Biff as antagonist (he gets in the way of Marty's parents getting together, although at the same time he is the reason they get together............).\n\nTime is also an antagonist to some extent..........", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1709642}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311528951.897964, "message": "I think this film is going to have some strong Requirements or Prerequisites. That's how I see the goals relating.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1710552}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311535547.042542, "message": "Doc is pretty strong as the Guardian archetype.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1710892}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311555370.08885, "message": "Did we already establish the four throughlines?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1712330}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311556431.4822259, "message": "Well... officially, we're waiting until mid-week to really begin the analysis.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1712428}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311560758.6670489, "message": "Doc may be a leap-of-faith change character. He tapes the note back together and reads it which prevents his death in the 80's. Before that he is strongly apposed to doing anything which may upset the timeline.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1712800}, {"user_id": 30287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311558859.374732, "message": "I withdraw my previous theory about two stories, on account of its stupidity. \n\nContinuing on the theme of stupidity, though, I'm too stupid to detect any kind of change in either Marty or Doc, so I'm not sure how you'll work out the whole MC/IC problem/solution thing. They both seem relatively steadfast to me, and their relationship doesn't really grow or change from how it begins. I'm curious to see the discussion.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1712655}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311562271.175132, "message": "Looks like I'd better hurry up and watch the movie...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1712927}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311568664.119066, "message": "@Bee You've never seen it?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713523}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311568773.6350391, "message": "@MikeDerk Yeah, just not in a long time. And I have a terrible \"movie memory\"--it's quite pathetic. No, really.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713528}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311631161.502321, "message": "Changing one's nature could be the Requirements; they need to change Marty's father.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1718944}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311645272.3174119, "message": "I'm enjoying seeing everyone's speculation, and am curious to see how the storyform works out.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1720026}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916729.483783, "message": "how do we know he remains steadfast?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745013}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916153.7451739, "message": "pick one", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744905}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311917377.4275501, "message": "it is good and it is better. Thanks", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745110}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311906851.57026, "message": "Can we start yet? Can we start yet? can we start yet? :o)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744094}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311908907.268636, "message": "OS Throughline: Obtaining?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744216}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311907374.5066509, "message": "@krantz Can we start?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744129}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311910563.6020551, "message": "go for it guys, i started reading the script but prob won't finish/get to watch until saturday, will join then :-/", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744349}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311912648.011832, "message": "The Overall story is about getting Marty back to his time without changing anything.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744599}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311912265.0770991, "message": "I'm going to lurk. But I'm going to reiterate @jimhull : \n\nThe best way to start is to state the four throughlines -- just the story. Not even the domains (although that always creeps in). Once those are agreed on, things move more smoothly.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744547}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311914492.6658981, "message": "So if:\nOS: Situation -- Progress\nMC: Manipulation -- Playing a Role\n\nIC would be: Activity -- Doing", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744732}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311914760.1633861, "message": "I think the OS doesn't get resolved since in the end something's changing with regards to Marty's future children. So the OS, I think, is all about How things Are changing (progress).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744762}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915091.49826, "message": "If the IC is Doc Brown then I will argue Fixed Attitude. We must fix the timeline and \"get you back to the future!\" Which would put Marty into Situation. He is stuck in the past", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744791}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311912823.7121749, "message": "I was thinking that the Impact Character was Doc Brown but I could be convinced it is Marty's parents.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744613}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311912753.5803449, "message": "Maybe I should say \"teen-age time traveler\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744609}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311913439.3739531, "message": "So they're dealing with a situation of How Things Are Changing?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744649}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311912527.1678851, "message": "Oh yeah, lol. I propose Activity as the OS throughline. Though it could also be Situation. Hmmm...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744586}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311914661.4189091, "message": "Is that the OS or the MC?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744745}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311914610.9378209, "message": "Marty travels to the time his parents were supposed to fall in love, and instead he takes the role of his father being the love of his mother's life.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744740}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915162.112865, "message": "You should really avoid thinking of concerns until you have all the four domains figured out. Otherwise you can argue for anything because you're only arguing part of the story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744797}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915472.5658669, "message": "I do consider Action forces Decision in this story, this could confuse things with regards to throughlines.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744835}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915521.040484, "message": "I will defer to Jim and say no domain yet just the story is about getting Marty back to the future.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744837}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915551.0690711, "message": "What is the relationship about? Is that a good question or is that jumping ahead?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744838}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915698.333307, "message": "Sweet - thanks - yes I love that movie", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744854}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915769.9062729, "message": "Doc I guess. His constant warnings against hooking up with his own mother?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744861}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915786.2740359, "message": "ok - so Doc is an option. Anyone else?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744863}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311914526.870878, "message": "But what is going on? What actually happens in the movie?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744734}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311914878.482682, "message": "But what is the OS?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744774}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915923.21841, "message": "ooh, can we add Einie? j/k", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744879}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916001.3108799, "message": "ha! so what about the Relationship Throughline? Whoever likes Doc as the IC - what would be the relationship between Marty and Doc?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744887}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915309.9554291, "message": "Nice. So you also think the OS is Situation?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744816}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915384.7685659, "message": "It's easier to think of throughline as the source of their predicaments, should we isolate just throughlines without mixing it with Concern. I tend to go to concern + throughline. Armando's fault. :D", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744828}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311914718.786279, "message": "Then what are the other 3 throughlines?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744753}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311914948.024111, "message": "Or is this the MC/IC realm only?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744778}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311914998.1163599, "message": "true.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744786}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915791.7988751, "message": "instinctively I went with Doc but his parents have a big impact on him. seeing them as people with hopes and dreams.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744865}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915812.3673749, "message": "ok, so Doc, Parents, anyone else?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744867}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916094.191371, "message": "what kind of a relationship do they have? are they married? best friends? estranged brothers?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744896}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311914679.8420479, "message": "MC if we take Marty as the MC.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744747}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311914924.7125361, "message": "Everyone is constantly having problems stemming from How the time line is changing.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744776}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311914947.692904, "message": "I would totally avoid thinking of concerns until the throughlines are figured out. Just a thought.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744777}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311914953.0612631, "message": "You're getting caught up in how to classify it in Dram without actually nailing it down.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744781}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915209.40294, "message": "Good point. But him being stuck in the past is feels more involved with the overall story doesn't it?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744802}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915250.9626629, "message": "I'm guessing the title might have something to do with it...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744805}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915271.1537769, "message": "Titles could be misleading. :D", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744808}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915321.4063251, "message": "I want to say Overall story is Activity but is everyone concerned ...oops, there is that concern word", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744820}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915344.3362181, "message": "Not even thinking of Domains yet - just saying that the Overall Story has something to do with getting someone back to the future.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744824}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915409.9550991, "message": "Aha, so Activity for both of you then.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744829}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915281.011833, "message": "Not this one", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744811}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915370.1819971, "message": "I want to say the overall story is about the activity of getting teen time traveler back to the future", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744827}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915677.4442019, "message": "Marty?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744850}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915678.554203, "message": "@ jimhull I have listened to all (almost) the podcast and I admire your insight, Jim. (gush) especially on \" how to train your dragon\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744851}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915895.2959869, "message": "Yeah, I agree.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744877}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915963.681242, "message": "\"Get used to those bars, kid\" -- never waste a line!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744885}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916167.836545, "message": "Friends", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744908}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916302.820801, "message": "I am going to stick with Doc but that is a wierd one. Parent and son /friends", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744936}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916388.6428471, "message": "Aren't they like \"the same\" having troubles with that bully guy?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744951}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916449.244261, "message": "i was gonna say between doc and marty as friends, and marty and george as father/son, which one seems to be the actual -heart- of the story", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744962}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916516.095278, "message": "oh, yeah. Biff. Funny guy.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744975}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916567.114975, "message": "ok...so onto Resolve...anyone?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744984}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915565.549279, "message": "Yeah, I didn't say anything about activity. Typically in the User Group Meetings we try and figure out what the throughlines actually are, then work on the dynamics and *then* do the domains and throughlines...makes things waaay easier", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744840}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915784.188247, "message": "I should watch this movie again. Darn. :D", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744862}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915939.8082459, "message": "Uncle Joey", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744881}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311917352.1868689, "message": "True. This is my first time, and very stimulating.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745107}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916555.0599229, "message": "i would agree, I think Doc plays a big part in the Overall Story but I'm not sure he actually carries an emotional argument with Marty", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744983}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915607.7847171, "message": "and yes I would agree the story is about getting Marty back to the future", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744843}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915858.944587, "message": "As a kid.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744874}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916137.4403989, "message": "Mentor / student ?? friends", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744903}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311917175.9543281, "message": "@sam_potter yeah but thats more about dad, not so much personal, ok - lets pause till tomorrow night?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745084}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915626.2557311, "message": "Main Character?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744845}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915855.2227459, "message": "His dad.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744871}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915857.0037749, "message": "Biff is just an obstacle.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744872}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915881.2042651, "message": "If I had to pick one parent it would be his Dad", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744875}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916194.8454709, "message": "ok, so whoever likes the Parents as a group, what is the relationship with Marty and them?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744912}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915696.679985, "message": "Yes, Marty", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744853}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915716.020232, "message": "I think everyone will agree it's Marty... right?! :) OK, so what about Impact Character?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744855}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916063.6086869, "message": "His parents are part of his goal but Doc and he argue about Marty's path.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744894}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916280.5922999, "message": "what about Marty and Dad, what's the Relationship there?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744931}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916517.1115589, "message": "Marty's story with Doc is kind of a book end subplot so I would say the heart of the story is father/son", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744976}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311917131.6514349, "message": "In the beginning he is frustrated with his father when he sees him letting Old Biff take advantage of him. He throughout grows in his resolve as he coaches his young father to stand up to Biff.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745075}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916586.3869381, "message": "@Kristoffer totally", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744988}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915804.145484, "message": "Oh yeah, right.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744866}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311915897.3609991, "message": "so far we have Doc, Parents, George (Dad)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744878}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916023.016351, "message": "ha.! Argument for Doc. He has a relationship with Doc from beginning to end and is with him most of the time.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744888}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916034.130409, "message": "but how would you describe it?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744889}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916272.042172, "message": "I still do, but my brain fails me.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744929}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916362.665282, "message": "right, so marty and dad have a father/son relationship", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744945}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916381.2576909, "message": "right", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744949}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916414.4043159, "message": "nice pull...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744955}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916256.7911861, "message": "lol does that mean no one likes the Parents anymore?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744922}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916359.982363, "message": "Mcfly", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744943}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916499.653038, "message": "for the record the bully guy was Biff", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744971}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916575.762465, "message": "Doc could just be the Guardian?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744985}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916619.3910639, "message": "agree. Resolve for Marty is steadfast.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744995}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916352.025202, "message": "his dad was this shy guy right?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744941}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916800.8961329, "message": "yeah, lol.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745029}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916861.4231181, "message": "His resolve is to stand up for your self", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745037}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311917283.864851, "message": "This is fun guys. It's almost as good as taking a vacation to California just to participate in DUG.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745101}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916793.4440241, "message": "@Kristoffer LOL you might want to watch the film again", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745026}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916974.2857981, "message": "everybody cool with Steadfast as the Resolve? usually its good to have some proof of it, but I'm too sleepy to come up with a concrete example, anyone?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745052}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916432.614152, "message": "the old ' we are alike, you and I' good argument for Dad", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744958}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311917554.349406, "message": "yeah, you guys are great. :)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745136}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916744.859617, "message": "assuming that's true...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745014}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311917058.9935629, "message": "i want to say yes but must... load... vcr...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745062}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311917124.8944981, "message": "its something to do with playing guitar the way he wants I think...anyways if everyone is cool, what about Approach?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745073}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916749.2548959, "message": "So his father (supposedly IC) changes.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745015}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916686.5340309, "message": "he sees his father as weak and wants him to stand up to Biff.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745007}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916809.469996, "message": "Through all his relationships he really wants the people he loves to be OK and he fights for that till the end", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745032}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311917321.7610309, "message": "Okay, I'll catch up with you guys later.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745102}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311916777.087466, "message": "I can't remember this. Did his father like punch biff somewhere?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745023}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311917133.2255759, "message": "Why don't we stop and continue later. it is 12:30 here", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745076}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311917151.251087, "message": "I would love that.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745078}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311917177.3544531, "message": "Yes Guitar. He has fears of not being good enough and doesn't stand up to the school to play his music his way", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745085}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311917338.727469, "message": "yes thanks for letting me run the show...it seems to work way better if there is some moderator steering it, hope i wasn't too bossy...just doing my best chris impersonation", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1745105}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311943111.952183, "message": "U r hereby 'Ville-ified'. jk", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1746887}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311947334.5701661, "message": "Not banned, but jumping ahead without having first solidified the context (the upper levels) invites all kinds of inaccuracies and circular conversation.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1747387}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311962329.8835959, "message": "Would he be a do-er because he said, \"I can't wear that (marty's description of the suit and tie)\". He finds it hard to \"adapt\" and doesn't really show evidence that he's working things out internally.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1749638}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311960283.3032811, "message": "okay, just seen the film. Not sure if only Marty's concerned about this, but he's somewhat satisfied that they've become a better family in the end. Somehow at the start of the movie, at dinner, Marty's mother points to the past being the source of their present predicaments (poor family and relationship). It happens that when Marty's dad gets confidence, \"if you put your mind into it you can accomplish everything\" everything became better.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1749374}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311960407.489188, "message": "This goes for Marty's guitar thing when he talks to jeniffer after the failed audition in school.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1749406}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311960661.7351871, "message": "Somehow, Marty's concerned more about his family's emotional state or something. Not sure if this is when Marty is seen in the OS or his MC concern.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1749438}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311960365.9326861, "message": "Marty's insecurities and his dad's are similar, \"What if she refuse, I can't take that kind of rejection!\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1749394}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311960526.748868, "message": "So, yeah, Marty remained steadfast all throughout the story, while his dad changes and thanks Marty for \"good advice\".", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1749415}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311961220.320395, "message": "sounds to me more like the OS - keeping the family intact and all that, but I'm glad you checked the film out! Next would be the MC Approach -- don't know if people want to wait till later or maybe just step in throughout the day...I'm open to either", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1749510}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311962435.7047, "message": "He could be a do-er forced to deal with internal things?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1749655}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311961979.3817871, "message": "I can't get a handle on this one. On one hand Marty can't really force things but must let things unravel to the desired result, but on the other he affects things by his words and actions. TBH, I'm confused atm.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1749609}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311962355.3181701, "message": "His dad does this though. Work things out internally.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1749642}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312060420.7765679, "message": "time lock or option lock? This one should be easy", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755955}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311966314.0373271, "message": "Marty is a doer because he continually attempts to warn doc about the future. Despite his fears( or because of his fears) he runs away from Biff to save himself. He turns a scooter into a skateboard etc.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1750193}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312060476.0224929, "message": "Timelock :D", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755957}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311965735.9226241, "message": "I may change my vote and say the OS is about family", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1750108}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311965955.6133859, "message": "As Chris would say, \" be careful not to confuse the protagonist's role in the OS with the MC in his personal story.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1750128}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311965652.3158231, "message": "Do-er. He acts to save his dad from being hit by the car. He acts to influence his father to pursue Gus mother \"I am Darth Vader from the planet Vulcan\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1750098}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312009749.2891941, "message": "Ok - so Do-er it is. Mental Sex (or Problem-Solving Style)?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1753586}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311967212.9676771, "message": "I think Marty warning Doc is part of the OS.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1750281}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311967366.3063829, "message": "Have we pinned down Marty's throughline? I think it's \"He's in the past\" and all of his troubles come from that: if he weren't there, his mom wouldn't have a crush on him. His future (in the photo) wouldn't be getting erased. Nobody would make fun of his vest.\n\nHow he deals with those problems is how we decide if he's a do-er, or be-er.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1750296}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311970543.2672639, "message": "@Kristoffer I don't think \"not adapting\" could classify him as a do-er. The lack of one doesn't necessarily imply the other. What is he personally dealing with that no one else is and how would that transfer to another story?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1750729}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311970450.4624951, "message": "Yes Marty is stuck in a situation and George is sure he's not good enough (an unchanging fear that he cannot accomplishing hopes an dreams)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1750723}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311971129.8824251, "message": "If the overall story is getting Marty back to the future the the personal story is saving his family? If that is the case he is very actively getting his mom and dad to 'hook up'", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1750792}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312016089.822825, "message": "He masks himself as Darth Vader to make his dad go and ask his mom to the dance.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1753816}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311975466.177057, "message": "Marty definitely has an issue with people calling him a chicken, and I think the reason is quite obvious too: he has daddy issues. He doesn't want to turn out like his father. I'd say his personal throughline is \"being the son of a total wuss\"; a Situation, that is. \"No McFly ever amounted to anything in the history of Hill Valley!\" In a way, quite similar to Luke Skywalker.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1751199}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311976480.504765, "message": "Marty has ridonkulous skateboard skills.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1751289}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311979576.4839661, "message": "so how does he approach being called a chicken or a wuss?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1751556}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311992057.412885, "message": "I agree Do-er.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1752606}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311992296.0306571, "message": "Part 1, biff didn't call mcFly chicken yet.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1752641}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311995914.6088431, "message": "Does anyone have an argument for Marty as a be-er? (not that that's a good argument for do-er)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1752976}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312001283.8774171, "message": "No examples for do-er?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1753241}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312002837.144541, "message": "He trips biff in the cafeteria?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1753305}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312003065.785145, "message": "His definition for \"standing up for yourself\" is more external/physical, which caught his mother's attention. \"He's an absolute dream!\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1753313}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312002999.6951561, "message": "His plan during the dance where his dad would come to rescue while he'd \"pretend\" to rape-ish his mom; Carrying the punching bag and rather be a fighter;", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1753310}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312003460.8931329, "message": "Take Jeniffer to the lake; Goes physical against biff instead of talking;", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1753336}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312003870.354548, "message": "I mean How does Marty deal with his personal problems?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1753359}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312004066.1118381, "message": "He plays the guitar.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1753369}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312003356.681911, "message": "Marty does prefer to deal with his problems physically.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1753326}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312003765.6290109, "message": "How does personal problems? Is that the question that would that would bring the more effective answer?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1753353}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312007439.1702819, "message": "I think it's more of a mode of being. Like, how he is when dealing with everything.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1753508}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312153687.0938749, "message": "No, no way. that would be really painfully boring if they were the exact same!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1761425}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312015825.8655579, "message": "He gives a letter to Doc about getting shot in the future; He had an idea he could just go back 10 minutes before the shooting; He thinks if his dad saves his mother from him, she would then fall in love with dad; Logical?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1753804}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312016086.0325799, "message": "He tends to want to affect a cause to create an effect?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1753815}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312153701.1203649, "message": "Good point.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1761430}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1311914099.376441, "message": "@sam_potter What do you think the IC throughline would be?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1744690}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312037939.8951631, "message": "When Marty realizes he and his brother and sister are going to disappear from existence, he surmises that he has got to get his mother and father to kiss on the dance floor at the Enchantment under the Sea dance. Does he set up one cause after the other to create that effect or does set up a series of events to bring about the desired effect.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1754665}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312040668.531533, "message": "Nice. So Linear all around? Ok what about Story Driver?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1754847}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312041121.2037749, "message": "Doc bumps his head then the idea of the flux capacitor?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1754894}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312039602.2292621, "message": "Marty definitely problem solves in a linear style. \"I guess she felt sorry for him because her dad hit him with the car...(realizing) ...hit me with the car.\" realizes problem and then finds the solution (all-be-it guided by Doc) -\" Of course, the Enchantment Under the Sea dance. They are suppose to go to this. That's where they kiss for the first time.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1754756}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312040072.3229051, "message": "I agree.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1754771}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312040545.0137639, "message": "lol. Yeah, I took that as a sign of his logical ps-style as well. How could he have done it if he had been intuitive?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1754831}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312056862.545331, "message": "we should probably focus on the one question now - kind of hard to follow if its all over the place", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755765}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312040441.7104681, "message": "George, \" I am not taking Loraine to that dance and not you nor anyone else on this planet is going to make me change my mind.\" So Marty thinks, 'George is really into Science Fiction which will help me create the effect I desire.' Thus he appears to George in the night saying verily, \"I am Darth Vader from the planet Vulcan. If thou dust not ask Loraine to the dance I will smiteth your brain and cause it to melt utterly.\" (ok, i took some liberties.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1754807}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312041068.720022, "message": "Does that mean Action forces Decision?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1754884}, {"user_id": 10814, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312041040.3295231, "message": "DeLorian, of course! ;)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1754879}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312042484.465734, "message": "Nice one Chris. I didn't notice you sneaked that one in there.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1754955}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312042557.214992, "message": "Is the book end when lightning strikes the tower?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1754962}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312042363.584455, "message": "I would say Action drives decisions in this story. If Marty hadn't accidentally triggered the time machine while running from the Lybians there would have been no story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1754946}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312042403.6818781, "message": "Bumping of the head. Good one.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1754949}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312045959.1576719, "message": "aha!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755133}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312046080.9699199, "message": "I think it's interesting that George's role is that he has to restore the balance of the past. He has to change the mom internal state (her motivation) to get her to fall in love. None of it is totally conscious -- it's Marty's plan with Doc -- but he's in a very Holistic role.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755144}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312048067.6785779, "message": "By the way, strutcure wise, should the 50's and 80's parents be concidered as different characters?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755240}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312047884.6494, "message": "Concerning the Story Driver, what do you guys think is the Inciting incident? Marty accidentally triggering the time machine happens quite late in the story. I think it's more likely to be the first act turn.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755227}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312051300.6308429, "message": "Marty's story starts in the battle of the bands audition. The overall story, I would argue, starts in the 2nd scene where principal skinner lays out the facts that no McFly has ever amounted to anything in 'history of hill valley'. Marty: \"Well, history is about to change.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755420}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312051144.052845, "message": "Well the first incident is the clocks being 25 minutes slow which causes him to be late for school. 2nd incident is his band is too loud which makes the all adult committee reject his band. (it wasn't an accident they played like that. The band chose to play the way they did). 3rd incident: Biff wrecks his dad's car. 4th: Doc calls and asks Marty to meet him in the middle of the night at Twin Pines mall. 5th: Doc gets shot.... I don't know if any of this is helping.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755408}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312051146.3577411, "message": "@MikeDerk Marty's mom admitted that she already had feelings for George. It was Kalvin (Marty) that got in the way of that. It was only when she kissed Marty that her infatuation with Marty was dispelled, and thus immediately brought her back to potentially \"sealing the deal\" with the kiss.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755409}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312051488.6170499, "message": "I'm rooting for when Marty travels into the past as the Inciting Incident. That is if you are referring to the Inciting Incident as in with Syd's definition of it in his diagram.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755431}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312053559.0569551, "message": "@sam_potter \"Well, history is about to change.\" At least strong foreshadowing", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755541}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312055710.783952, "message": "Not yet", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755681}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312055439.9409621, "message": "What seems to turn everything upside down is when Marty pushes George out of the way and gets hit by a car.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755663}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312056678.7797911, "message": "Anybody want to consider Doc getting his head bumped in 1950 as the first Action?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755748}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312056811.9025519, "message": "@Kristoffer I don't think the SS Throughline can be Fixed Attitude because Marty's personal throughline is almost certainly Situation.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755755}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312056212.0535841, "message": "by the way, since we've nailed down our MC being Marty and IC being George (dad), which do you think the MC/IC realm is Fixed Attitude or Manner of Thinking?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755715}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312055577.6597199, "message": "So, so far, did we complete the 12 essential questions?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755670}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312055908.3909271, "message": "Okay, I'll be back later when Jim gets back moderating. Must rest a bit. :)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755698}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312057863.190918, "message": "Are we trying to figure out the Inciting Incident?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755815}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312057264.02461, "message": "yeah - i would definitely say Action - and while i like Doc bumping his head in the 1950s as a possible Inciting Incident, I would tend to think that that is backstory", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755792}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312058243.8908989, "message": "An interesting thing to think of -- when does the Overall Story come to an end? What's the Concluding Event (Action)?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755833}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312057997.262392, "message": "Action or Decision driver with examples", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755824}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312059795.1446221, "message": "If getting Marty back to the future is the Goal of the story then the final action that ensures success is Doc sliding down the wire to fix the connection.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755913}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312059862.1751299, "message": "the lightning strike coinciding with the time machine hitting its mark at the precise moment.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755918}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312059773.964159, "message": "I know someone thought the action of Marty accidentally activating the time travel was too far into the story but I am going with that as the action that starts the OS and concluding action is the lightning striking the tower at the end.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755912}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312059942.6910019, "message": "@sam_potter I changed my opinion. You are right. It is the Inciting Incident of the OS.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755924}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312061028.3633139, "message": "precisely 10:04 next Saturday night!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755995}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312060185.398432, "message": "@Ville ...and so I remove your Ville-ified status.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755942}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312060741.70099, "message": "About the story driver: what about Marty DECIDING to travel ten minutes early in order to save Doc?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755968}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312060310.281193, "message": "i'm out for a couple of hours - if you guys want to move on to the next feel free, there's still something I want to say about the Drivers and the OS but it will have to wait. I wouldn't do anything more than the Limit, Outcome and Judgment though. (the last one should be fairly easy!)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1755949}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312061144.4668131, "message": "is that decision @Ville to go back 10 minutes early driven by docs action of tearing up his note? is that part of a subplot?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756002}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312072033.8334091, "message": "It is a timelock because the lightning strikes a precisely 10:04 next Saturday night.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756704}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312065425.556695, "message": "But was Martys decision out of nowhere or did something precede it?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756234}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312067655.7120459, "message": "outcome = success, limit = timelock, judgement...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756399}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312069302.124686, "message": "he changes the clock in order to get back in time to warn Doc", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756511}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312068194.400816, "message": "im not entirely sold that the OS goal is getting Marty back to the future. could it have something to do with fixing the family? getting his parents together?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756436}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312067925.1148691, "message": "If limit = timelock that implies that \"getting back to the future\" isn't the OS Goal. Why does he change the clock to get back early?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756412}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312067953.5174029, "message": "Marty starts off haunted by the fear of turning out like his father. He's worried he has no future. Through the story he helps George realize the value of self-confidence, and is able to return to the future. But w/ Doc's return at the end he is still worried about his future, right? So judgement = bad?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756414}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312068120.8811059, "message": "the only way he can get back is if he gets to the clock tower by the time the lightning strikes. he has to get his parents together before that happens.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756427}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312068062.750819, "message": "@MikeDerk not sure how those questions are connected?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756424}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312069214.417882, "message": "nvm, i changed my mind. i do think the OS goal is getting Marty back to the future... but i may echo @sam_potter's earlier thoughts of it being getting him back to the future without changing anything.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756509}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312069349.1817329, "message": "i'm not sure i'm right about too many things either, par for the course here :) big TY to jim for helping/moderating/just existing", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756516}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312068939.163105, "message": "Well, why does he change the clock in the car to come back early? (I'm not sure I'm right about anything, btw. I just have an itch.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756490}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312069420.0822129, "message": "to be a wee bit more precise, he changes the clock so he can arrive in the future early enough to warn Doc the Libyans are coming to kill him", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756521}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312070726.5540781, "message": "Could warning doc be the goal?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756621}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312072139.0630109, "message": "The goal is to get back to the future with out changing anything which ends in failure and a consequence of changing ones nature. I know we are not there yet but that is why it feels like success. The exact goal is not achieved. Marty changing the clock has to do with a subplot not the timelock ending with the lightning strike.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756708}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312092805.6777029, "message": "The Midpoint would be when Marty bests Biff in the town center - cementing his mom's affection for him.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757782}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312071179.560276, "message": "I don't think so. If warning Doc is the story goal then wouldn't it have to lie in Marty's throughline/be that throughline's concern? Also, there aren't really any requirements or consequences related to warning Doc, but there are some strong ones related to getting Marty back to le future...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756648}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312072154.774178, "message": "(sam leaves to go buy a lotter ticket)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756709}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312072329.5329771, "message": "gl sam. if you win i hope you continue posting here, and give us all some money.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756720}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312073667.220243, "message": "If the goal is to get back to the future without changing anything, then Doc would be the protagonist and Marty antagonist. I don't think that's the case. I think Marty is the protagonist (Marty: Doc. You gotta help me get back to the future. Doc: Go away spaceboy!) and the goal is to simply get back to the future without the \"without changing anything\" part. I think the \"don't change anything\"-argument Marty has with BOTH Doc and George is the subjective story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756783}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312074301.736892, "message": "@krantz Spot on.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756801}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097021.8635571, "message": "So, if Marty is the Protagonist.... hmm...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757976}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312074224.1819201, "message": "Doc is def the archetypal guardian. He is conscience (it is bad to change the past!) and help (helps Marty get back to the future). In that line alone \"Doc, you gotta help me get back to the future\" we see their roles on display", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756799}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312074869.675667, "message": "The Outcome is Success. Marty gets back to his own time. The fact that he changed a couple of things for the better doesn't make it a failure. Basically, the message of this masterpiece is that you should take action and affect your own future. This story kicks ass!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756830}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312075268.9939561, "message": "I love it too. (when we are done I would like to talk about what they chose for biff at the end) To play devils advocate (cause I aint got the answer) if the Overall Story is something that all the major players are involved with or at least have an opinion about, how can the OS concern be about getting Marty back to the future if he and Doc are the only two who know about it?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756855}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312075861.9135971, "message": "@sam_potter I've been wondering the same thing. Could it be that the OS Througline is Manipulation? Maybe the OS is \"dysfunctional family that needs fixing\". I like that idea a lot.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1756890}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312080720.924428, "message": "I guess I like the \"get Marty back to his time without changing the future is that it concerns everyone even though Loraine and George don't know why they are each other's destiny they still have an opinion about it or a stake in the outcome.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757190}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312086060.552089, "message": "Dysfunctional Family. I like that being Marty's personal goal, since everyone else seem to either not be aware of it change from so-so to okay, or would rather not have it change at all (doc). \n\nMarty particularly took personal satisfaction upon seeing his family ending up better than before.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757482}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312092787.4738569, "message": "The First Act Turn would therefore be the moment Marty pushes the DeLorean to 90 mph.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757779}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312092335.513798, "message": "The Inciting Incident is the event that, if never played, there would be no story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757759}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312092179.375138, "message": "The problem with having the Goal be to get Marty \"back to the future\" is that getting him back doesn't resolve everything. It's a step in the right direction, but it is not truly what is at stake in the story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757750}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312092505.5218861, "message": "Marty is there for the jump back in time, it's the event that starts the \"fun and games\" of the movie, and thus must be the actual \"inciting\" event. The problem is, there is something that happens previously, that if it never had happened, would have precluded the need for Marty to jump back in time.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757766}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312092683.941793, "message": "The Inciting Event of \"Back to the Future\" happens when Doc screws over the Libyans. Substituting pinball machine parts for plutonium effectively starts the inequity of the story and guarantees the subsequent act turns.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757770}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312092816.301131, "message": "it felt that way.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757784}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312092430.3168719, "message": "Many people, especially story gurus from the past, erroneously see the First Act Turn as the Inciting Incident. This occurs because quite often those same people tie a story's act turns with the central character -- one they also confusingly always blend into a Main Character/Protagonist hybrid. Thankfully, Dramatica shows us a different, more accurate way to look at the workings within a story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757763}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312092822.79318, "message": "The Second Act Turn would be when George finally stands up to Biff and knocks him out.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757786}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312092920.2393949, "message": "The Concluding Event, or Action, would not be Marty returning to the future because the inequity started by Doc's initial cheating of the Libyans is still in effect. Instead, the Concluding Event is when Doc cheats once again and tapes the letter from Marty back together.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757797}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312092975.5710411, "message": "This resolves the story's problems and brings everything back to equilibrium...an equilibrium weighted to one side, but resolution in the sense of story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757801}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312093210.527566, "message": "The film certainly feels like a Triumph (Success/Good) and this final sequence certainly fulfills the second half of that meaningful ending.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757816}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312093094.5313771, "message": "The sequence with Marty at home, with his brother and sister rich and successful, his mom and dad happy and well-adjusted, and Biff out waxing the Beemer works more as a denouement or proof of the Story's Judgment. Marty has resolved his angst associated with being a McFly.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757814}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312093329.2879829, "message": "The question then becomes, what is the Success? What is it that Marty as Protagonist and Doc as Guardian are trying to bring back to an equitable position? Being able to confidently describe this will cement the notion of Story Outcome AND help define the Story's Limit -- which may not be as easy as it first appears.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757821}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312096793.891679, "message": "The story shows success being Marty and his kin restored into existence.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757964}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312096528.542275, "message": "Doing? Mom and Dad hooking up or as doc said, \"Mate\" or is that just the prerequisite?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757954}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312096886.5541711, "message": "I think Marty and his kin restored into existence is close, but there is still that messiness with Doc left - so that really can't be the actual Successful Outcome", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757970}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312096721.068485, "message": "In your question, \"what is the Success?\" I mean.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757962}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097468.320678, "message": "what was the climactic scene again?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1758000}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097716.003659, "message": "\"The key is inside the trunk with Marty\";", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1758014}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312096649.7010541, "message": "I think innermost desires is just a Dividend. Oh, yeah, I'm trying to figure out things by process of elimination. I wanted to nail down what the Goal really is as per your question.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757958}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097312.9040401, "message": "Marty had a week of time, and that's the only window he's got to set things right with his mom and dad;", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757994}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097606.5316579, "message": "true.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1758007}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097962.1941249, "message": "Nice. My vote goes to Option Lock.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1758023}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312096572.7629421, "message": "I would hold off on Concerns - we still haven't done Throughlines yet and nailing down what the Successful Outcome is and the Story Limit tied to it will help determine what the Domains are.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757955}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312096683.7203209, "message": "or were you aiming for the problem/solution?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757961}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312096835.843961, "message": "The problem with jumping ahead and thinking of other non-essential elements of story (like Dividend or Prerequisites) is that it resembles splicing DNA without a microscope. It becomes a guessing game that, trust me, leads to a catacomb of rabbit holes.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757968}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097054.0723121, "message": "The issue now is the Limit.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757979}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097029.304966, "message": "Doc's screwing over the Libyans sets off a chain of events. His \"cheating\" by taping back together the pieces of the letter resolves it. But what does it resolve? Perhaps we can hold off until we get to the Concerns for this. Knowing that it is a Success is probably enough for now.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757977}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097386.2048249, "message": "I know, I'm listing the locks. :)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757996}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097411.343646, "message": "Is it an option lock or time lock kind of thing.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757997}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097485.353301, "message": "Was it during the lightning?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1758002}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097801.1615391, "message": "Lack of options seem to be creating time or burning time, imo.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1758017}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097813.570261, "message": "That's good - one more last thought before heading off to sleepy time, and it's a favorite of mine -- in an Optionlock story the characters will feel like they're running out of time, likewise in a Timelock story the characters will feel like they're running out of options.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1758018}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097238.0822141, "message": "They didn't have any other alternative to get marty back into the future, only the lightning strike; the car not starting before the lightning strike; time of the lightning strike is set, and it happens only at that precise time...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757986}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097361.7117529, "message": "But we've already established that setting things right with his mom and dad was not the concluding event.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757995}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097438.4382169, "message": "Yes - the question is, what brings about the climax of the story - Time or Options?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1757998}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097590.2764189, "message": "It could be, but the limit will be felt throughout the whole story, not just the last half (or third depending on your point-of-view)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1758006}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312097679.317518, "message": "Another Option lock argument: \"The band's guitarist cuts his hand, so marty have no choice but to spend time and play with the band\";", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1758011}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312131255.283417, "message": "I was really pushing for timelock because we rarely get to analyze a timelock story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1759306}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312131451.0384729, "message": "@jimhull & how can we word the OS so that it includes everybody. That is why I was saying\"get Marty Back to 1985 without upsetting the space-time continuum.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1759330}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312131119.87396, "message": "@jimhull r u saying then that this is a decision driven story because Doc decided to screw over the Libyans? That to me is back story. It happens before the movie starts, but if u r saying this is an Action driven story because the Libyans show up and kill Doc, I would agree with that.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1759289}, {"user_id": 10814, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312132371.4954519, "message": "@sam_potter To be more 'objective,' I would phrase that, \"Get the time traveling kid back to 1985 before his presence in the past permanently disrupts the space-time continuum,\" or something to that effect. It is best NOT to use proper names when describing the OS, ESPECIALLY the names of the MC or IC. It can muddle the interpretation of the description to see more like one of the other throughlines.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1759398}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312134667.276293, "message": "Oh I would definitely call it an Action story. The problem with saying the Goal is to get Marty back is that when he returns there is still Docs death to deal with. If it is to get him back without upsetting the time space continuum then the story would be a Failure which I'm pretty sure it's not. Doc and Marty cheated time, which I think is an important part of the structure. It's what makes the film so much fun.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1759595}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312135151.436852, "message": "And yeah I keep oscillating back and forth between Docs death and pushing the car to 90 as being that first act turn. It might be that the work together as one driver, but if you take into consideration what is really going on (objective story), Marty only thinks Doc is dead. His misunderstanding only perpetuates the misunderstandings created by Docs bomb of pinball parts. Pushing it to 90 really shifts the context.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1759631}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312135834.7957931, "message": "@krantz The reason I asked about why Marty changes the time in the DeLorean is because it's a clue that the story isn't over when he gets back to 1988.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1759689}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312136230.37779, "message": "@jimhull Do you think saving the eccentrict inventor and getting the time traveling kid back to the future can be squeezed into the same Storyform with all the other stuff going on in the story?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1759727}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312137174.3247681, "message": "@jimhull I may be playing Captain Queeg trying to recreate the triumph (and fun) of \"How to Train Your Dragon\" where a failure story turned out to be a feel good ending. @Chris_Huntley Thank you for reminding me. (thank you for never tiring of teaching and guiding. It is truly a gift.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1759783}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312137733.0979509, "message": "@sam_potter I am guilty of this too. You really have to approach every story as if it is new. You can't bring understandings of previous stories into the mix because then you're coloring your appreciation of a story with what's in your head rather than what is in the Author's.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1759824}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312137788.097106, "message": "Dragon was bittersweet, BTTF is an all out triumph.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1759827}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312137608.144572, "message": "@Ville yes. I really think they all fit within the same objective story. I think the problem is one of the characters actually points to the camera and states something that could be construed as the Goal. I don't think the goal is explicitly stated in dialogue, but their motivation to make things right is working towards something.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1759820}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312140450.035058, "message": "@jimhull What about marty's comment \"Yeah, well, history's gonna change.\"? Could that actually be the goal -- changing the way people view the past or something to that effect? I would actually hazard a guess, that the first act in the OS is either Past or Memories. At the dinner table, Lorraine talks about how she met George; Mr. Strickland tells Marty that his father was a slacker; Doc can't believe it's been thirty years since he invented time travel.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1760059}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312140586.2475009, "message": "@Ville Have we decided that the OS is Activity? Because then we can't have Past or Memories.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1760066}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312142719.6568241, "message": "I think the OS encompasses the situation in the whole town. That's all I can come up with right now.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1760215}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312141387.505017, "message": "@MikeDerk Yes, but we might have been horribly wrong. I think there's a good deal of evidence to support the argument that the OS is Situation. And I don't think placing Marty's Throughline in Activity is such a bad idea either.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1760131}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312141677.334101, "message": "And just to catch everyone up so far we have Steadfast, Do-er, Linear, Action, Success, Good", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1760152}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312141628.7418931, "message": "Still want to hold off on the concerns. If everyone is OK with Success I'm also willing to leave the Limit open for now. How about Throughlines? What are the arguments for each of them? Make sure you don't just argue one. Argue them together like one complete package.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1760150}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312142406.6301341, "message": "I'll wait until we have the throughlines down.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1760198}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312141949.0932729, "message": "Can I throw in my argument for Optionlock?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1760160}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312144644.4252069, "message": "*Everyone is stuck with lives they aren't happy with. They let life happen to them in the past and now their present situation is regrettable. *George/Marty relationship deals with their fixed attitudes of fear of the unknown. Fear of rejection. Marty's other relationships have fixed attitude concerns as well. He wants to help Doc but Doc won't budge on his attitude toward knowing too much about your future. Marty's relationship with his mother has problems because she is boy crazy and right now he is her dream pie. *Marty's throughline is Activity. He is a do-er through and through. He is Gathering Information about his parents, He is understanding his mother and father more and more. He is actively engaged in trying to achieve saving his family and Doc by doing things like convincing his dad to ask his mom to the dance. standing up to Biff to keep him from spoiling his attempts toward achieving his ends. *George. George is walking around in life with a \"Manipulate ME! sign on his back. He cannot stand up to anyone. Biff wrecks George's car and manipulates George so that it is George's fault,... to write his reports and do his homework. Marty manipulates him to ask Loraine out, etc.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1760374}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312145558.7817309, "message": "@jimhull OK, I have been thinking that way lately do to my reasoning that they may change Main vs. Impact throughline to the Relationship Throughline and that was do to Main vs. Impact being about main Characgter's Relationships --or I thought I heard that or read that --my personal problem throughline is manner of thinking -- it's a process thing for me. ;0)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1760457}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312144894.3244469, "message": "@sam_potter Nice!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1760394}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312145614.827786, "message": "I think Doc is an Impact Character too.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1760467}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312145152.6593771, "message": "Martys fixed relationships with other people shouldn't fit into an argument for the Relationship Throughline, but good job arguing all four at once.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1760417}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312151260.7547369, "message": "@sam_potter the possible change to Relationship Throughline is to emphasize the point that that particular throughline is about the relationship between the Main and Impact character. In this case, that relationship is father/son.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1761083}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312151169.5881629, "message": "@Ville we already established that Doc wasn't the Impact Character earlier. Going back and changing it right now would really upheave things.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1761065}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312152113.8560929, "message": "Ok, so we have one for OS-Situation, MC-Activity, IC-Maniuplation, and RS-Attitude -- anyone else care to hazard a guess?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1761202}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312152949.5629461, "message": "@jimhull Why cant there be two Impact Characters? I'm not saying we should completely switch the IC. The reason I feel Doc is an IC too is that he tapes the letter back together thus affecting his own future -- the same way that George takes comman of his future by hooking up with Loraine. They both change in a very similar manner. They both take a chance. How does Doc's decision to tape the letter fit in the OS?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1761328}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312153150.522289, "message": "It resolves the OS and brings the Successful Outcome. If you can I would re-read up above all the discussion surrounding the Impact Character and why doc is no longer a candidate. The heart of the story is not between Marty and Doc - it's between Marty and Dad. Doc is a Guardian in the OS.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1761356}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312153598.216507, "message": "Ok. That clears it up. Just wondering: if there are multiple Impact Characters in a story, do they need to share the exact same OS character elements?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1761417}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312160600.156738, "message": "with Marty as a Do-er, another possible combination would be OS-Activity, MC-Situation, IC-Attitude and RS-Manipulation. Anyone think that's the setup?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1762060}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312162517.8454909, "message": "*Everyone is involved in the activity of finding their destiny, understanding their destiny, doing things which will bring them toward achieving their destiny. Loraine to obtain her dream boy, George to achieve his goal of being a science fiction writer, Marty to get back to his proper destiny, and Doc gets to help others obtain their destinies and understands he will invent the time machine in 30 years.* Marty is stuck in the past and needs to get back to his own time. *George problems come from his fixed attitude that he is a slacker and fears of not being good enough, fears of rejection. He is afraid to use his impulsive responses. *George and Marty have a relationship of Manipulation. Marty has to constantly manipulate George to get him to conceive an idea re: Loraine, develop a plan to woo her, play a role as a hero and eventually change his nature. \nJust as an exercise.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1762202}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312167670.9487181, "message": "Pretty good for an exercise! So does anyone have any comments on these two different looks?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1762565}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312172186.2479341, "message": "oops! let me revise that most recent OS-Activity...The mom/teenager to obtain her dream boy, the dad/teenager to achieve his goal of being a science fiction writer, the teen/time-traveler to get back to his proper destiny, and the scientist to help others obtain their destinies, etc. etc....", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1762867}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312185004.0144651, "message": "The latest article on my site skips ahead in a big big way! Was kinda hoping we would get through the rest today, but I guess some people would rather spend their Sundays with family and friends instead of seriously analyzing a story's thematics...:) I would suggest not reading the article until after we've come to a conclusion here. I'm more interested in hearing what other people have to say about the film's thematics rather than simply cribbing my interpretation.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1764188}, {"user_id": 38869, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312188942.3141689, "message": "yup", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1764395}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312184854.850445, "message": "Yeah see, to me having the OS in Activity seems to describe more the kinds of problems going on within the story. At first, i thought for sure it was going to be in Situation, with either the Concern or Benchmark of the Future. But when you try and fit the other throughlines in there it really doesn't follow through. Besides, the whole relationship between Marty and Dad is a classic Psychology relationship where a \"mentor\" works to change the \"menthe's\" way of thinking. Marty is certainly in Situation -- not only the boy out of time, but more important -- he's a McFly - always has been, always will be. Making something of himself is a major concern to him. And George is a classic sap who doesn't think he is worthy of Loraine's love.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1764169}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312184922.610944, "message": "In addition, if the OS was in Situation, I could see how it could maybe be a Timelock, but if you look at the story as a whole, there are a dwindling number of ways that they can make things right again - or perhaps the options could simply be the pieces they have to put back together - with the warning to Doc being the final one. Not completely opposed to it being a Timelock, I just think the argument for Optionlock is stronger.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1764174}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312184711.3440311, "message": "Convore stinks - it wasn't registering any of my posts over the past couple of hours - it was like i was talking to myself (which I do anyways)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1764161}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312184752.5919621, "message": "Let's try this again --", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1764166}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312185054.8658371, "message": "So does that sound good to everyone - OS-Activity, MC-Situation, IC-Attitude, RS-Manipulation? If so, we could take arguments for Concerns. Again, if you could argue all four at one it will make things easier (and your argument more convincing, after all - that's what Dramatica is all about)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1764206}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312198449.091764, "message": "Well, with the overall story in Situation I will argue the Concern of the Future - Marty Concern of Obtaining - George Concern of Changing ones Nature - RS of Innermost desires. \nwith OS in Activity the I/C George through line seems weakest in Fixed attitude.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1764951}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312204510.23926, "message": "I pondered this in bed last night and realized that it's only Marty who's stuck. He's stuck being a McFly in a small town that doesn't regard McFlies very highly. It's what the townspeople DO that's causing troubles. Previously I hazarded a guess that the first act of the OS was Past. But that's not the case. It's the first act of the MC Throughline. For some reason I thought that it was the OS because everyone was talking about the past. But then I rememebered that the MC Throughline isn't about looking AT the main character; it's about looking FROM the main character's perspective. So, in short: YES, Jim. I agree 100%.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1765622}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312207620.9226539, "message": "@sam_potter do you mean to say that with the OS in Activity, the IC Throughline of Fixed Attitude seems the weakest? The RS would be in Manipulation.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1766054}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312212521.7070329, "message": "@jimhull yes. I was cryptic on my way to work. It seemed the weakest in my argument for IC in Fixed however concern of innermost desires is very strong.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1767037}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312218734.1122479, "message": "The problem with seeing the Overall Story in Situation is that there really isn't anything _stuck_ that needs to be unstuck. You've got time-jumping, skateboarding, angry Libyans, dancing, making out (well, to be honest -- rape), and playing a killer guitar solo. Everyone experiences troubles arising from process, not a set state.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1767805}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312229233.2752981, "message": "@sam_potter I agree that Innermost Desires works well for George. As far as Fixed Attitude goes, he does seem to be fixated on Loraine, to the point where he'd be willing to spy on her dressing.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1769165}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312234510.6256571, "message": "@Ville ok - can you argue for the other 4 concerns as well? assuming George's Concern is Preconscious, that would mean Marty is Concerned with Progress, everyone is concerned with Doing and the two of them are concerned with Being.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1769972}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312234363.2169199, "message": "But Innermost Desires doesn't come into the picture until the second act. In the first act, George isn't very keen on Loraine. He hardly notices her. In my opinion, Innermost Desires is the Benchmark and Impulsive Responses is the Concern. George's approach to being bullied is to suck it up.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1769954}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312235682.2109201, "message": "\"Being\" could have something to do with playing this father-son role, when in truth Marty is in a situation he can't stand. Marty sort of \"plays along\" at the beginning of the movie. This is pretty evident from the way Marty looks at George at the dinner table. He's utterly disappointed in his father. Something I can totally relate to :D", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1770139}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312236919.4756501, "message": "Progress - Marty auditions for the school dance... But that could be part of the OS.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1770306}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312237285.3234141, "message": "forgot to mention that my issues with Being and Becoming were in reference to the relation between Marty and Dad", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1770339}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312237032.109993, "message": "Progress - Marty dreams of being a rock star and owning a truck. But that could also be the Future right? Progress is a bit harder for me to describe since I never quite grasped what it entails. I always find my self describing future events. Can I ask Luke Skywalker for some help?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1770322}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312237245.085763, "message": "If Marty's Concern was Progress, how things are changing would be a constant concern for him throughout - you know, if mom and dad were maybe doing well, and then they lost the house, or the McFlys were in the process of losing their reputation. I could maybe see this as his concern but you'd have a hard time arguing Doing as the Objective Story Concern. Being, to me, doesn't seem as strong as say Becoming. Marty wants his Dad to change, he doesn't want him to pretend. He wants him to become what he never became.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1770337}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312239044.435065, "message": "Yes. Becoming, Obtaining and the Future certainly do make a lot of sense. But how does Innermost Desires come into play in the first act?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1770469}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312241733.4256051, "message": "sry i haven't been too active, had a whole host of crap pile up... will get caught up/jump in later tonight", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1770697}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312240239.097831, "message": "He doesn't have much of a drive does he in the beginning? Not a whole lot of motivation there (in his interactions with Biff pre-time travel)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1770554}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312241233.813977, "message": "@Ville don't forget that innermost desires also holds fears and George is all about his fears and desires. we see young George he is fully desirous of Loraine in the tree", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1770640}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312241736.512886, "message": "To catch everyone up - we have: Change, Stop, Do-er, Linear, Action, Success, Good. Personally I think the strongest Domain Concern for the OS is Activity/Obtaining. I like Future because Marty is always concerned with making something of himself. Obtaining because you have characters doing whatever they can to achieve - whether its Libyans shooting for plutonium, or Biff grabbing Loraine in the car, etc. Innermost Desires because of George's love for Loraine and his fear of doing anything about it. And finally Becoming - Marty's attempts to manipulate, to change his dad into somebody stronger.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1770698}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312241763.6186061, "message": "ah, ok - we'll wait till you've had a chance to chime in", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1770704}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312247663.4424579, "message": "32 storyforms left", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1771619}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312250856.0416751, "message": "Ah, so we're good with Change, Stop, Do-er, Linear, Action, Success, Good, Activity, Obtaining? If so, how about arguments for Issue. Typically we look at the four elements underneath each issue and see if there is a group of elements that sound like Back to the Future.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1771919}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312251701.596209, "message": "Marty is a change MC? I thought we concluded he was steadfast... what did I miss! :(", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1771971}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312251910.4135001, "message": "noobish question - are the issues always contained within each throughlines' specific concern? or can they be any variation within the throughlines' class?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1771981}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312252010.6628981, "message": "Shoot my mistake, was thinking of my own story I'm writing. Yes, Marty is Steadfast.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1771991}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312252217.971108, "message": "Yes the Issues are always found within the Concern. The only time it won't line up straight down the model is within the Impact Character Throughline and the Relationship Story Throughline. The Elements in those throughlines can sometimes be found under different Issues.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1772009}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312256695.252033, "message": "is there a general way of looking at the question of Issue that can help me better figure it out? i guess what i'm asking is... when thinking about what the Issue is, what are the questions I should be asking about a story? explaining and understanding the issue has been one of the most confusing parts of Dramatica for me so far.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1772319}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312256183.0583301, "message": "I'd go w/ Rationalization as the Subjective Story Issue... but not sure how to best explain it. George is always rationalizing to Marty and this is where the conflict w/ regards to changing George's nature comes from. In 1985 he justifies his meek behavior when Biff wrecks his car. In 1955 he justifies why he doesn't ask Lorraine out or let anyone read his stories... basically he is rationalizing all his decisions before Marty manipulates him into a place where he makes the choice to change.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1772280}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312257125.6633649, "message": "Theme is hard for me to get as well. I generally look to the group of four elements below and see which group feels right. Also I would stick with the OS or MC as those elements line up with the Issue", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1772352}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312258332.4365599, "message": "For MC I am going to argue that Preconception is his concern. He is a McFly and I would argue that in the history of Hill Valley being a McFly means you will never amount to anything. So it is not his preconception necessarily(although he has to overcome his own unwillingness to reevaluate his McFly-ness) that is the issue but everyone else's preconception of him.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1772432}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312258473.9948959, "message": "That one is particularly strong.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1772446}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312258606.493973, "message": "Pursuit, Avoidance, Support and Oppose seem to fit as well, but I don't think Delay works as strongly as Preconception.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1772460}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312258562.464201, "message": "Help, Hinder, Control and Uncontrolled define Marty to a T.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1772455}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312260691.1073899, "message": "for OS I am going to submit Attitude for your approval. The different characters seem to cover the whole gambit of Attitudes. some have a laid back attitude, others forceful, another may sacrifice efficiency for niceties. The issue is not only having the right approach but also the right attitude.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1772687}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312258831.198194, "message": "I looked at delay and it does play in there but preconception is much stronger.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1772492}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312265551.2891519, "message": "Ok, well with Preconception as the MC Issue and Attitude as the OS Issue AND with Marty as Steadfast character that would mean the OS Problem would be either Support or Oppose. Do you have any good examples of where cheerleading or denouncing could be seen as the source of problems for everyone?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1773002}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312295818.968796, "message": "Libyans denounce scientist for tricking them .", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1775260}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312295784.5155151, "message": "Principal denounces slackers perceived or real. School opposes teens band. Mom opposes sons camping trip with girlfriend. Bully denounces dad for car, paperwork, homework, basically anything his fault or not. Bully opposes everyone. .", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1775257}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312296135.3133521, "message": "Eccentric inventor opposes tampering with the natural course of time.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1775312}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312297284.0281119, "message": "@Ville nice one", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1775530}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312302291.6750889, "message": "But are those really the source of troubles in the OS? In other words, if the inventor suddenly supported tampering with the natural course of time would everything be OK? If Biff was suddenly friends with the McFlys would that have resolved their issues?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1776614}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312313161.883317, "message": "Funny, in the final act, Biff becomes like a sidekick full of support for Mr. McFly. (incidentally, that is one of two problems I have with the movie)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1778467}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312312941.356586, "message": "Either, we haven't hit the nail on the head, or the source of the problems is the girlfriend who supports The teen and she is secretly a cheerleader, OR attitude is not the issue. Oppose at least feels like a symptom if not the problem.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1778427}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312326537.4002481, "message": "Attitude would make the RS Issue Obligation which I don't really think works out. Are there any other choices for a quad of elements under Obtaining that might seem right? What about Pursuit, Avoidance, Control and Uncontrolled?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1780001}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312326342.8348949, "message": "Unless beating him was some sort of proof of the OS Outcome of Success.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1779980}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312327902.723326, "message": "I like the girlfriend as the secret antagonist. JK OK. When I looked at Self-interest last night I couldn't see it. I guess I have been called narcissistic too many times so I didn't want the issue to be there, but enough about the movie lets talk about me. --BUT now I am seeing AVOIDANCE as a clear problem. the dad avoiding his demons, avoiding the pretty girl, avoiding rejection, the teen-time traveler avoiding his demons, avoiding rejection, but being called to adventure the issues are forced by the catalyst of approach (no example as yet), The eccentric scientist avoiding the truth about his future with the Libyans, Mom avoiding the truth about her past and then avoiding her destiny because she approaches new dreamboat time-traveler. Biff avoiding the fact that his father didn't love him and he is truly insecure about his masculinity, the principal avoiding the fact that he has no control over the true slackers. etc", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1780134}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312332110.8895509, "message": "Wow! I'm convinced.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1780735}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312335305.9695051, "message": "Also, for later discussion, I think MC Problem is resolved before getting back to 1988.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1781248}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312335190.621408, "message": "Catalyst of approach: movie heats up with space suit. Also, how Marty evades Biff on the skateboard -- not just that he does-- heats up the movie.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1781231}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312341198.8485539, "message": "Interesting...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1781762}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312341330.759871, "message": "OK - so with Steadfast, Stop, Do-er, Linear, Action, Success, Good, Activity, Obtaining, Self-Interest, Avoidance we are down to 2 storyforms. The interesting thing about this particular story is that this is one of those cases where the Limit really doesn't matter. Technically it will affect really deep thematic stuff that the program doesn't reveal, but for our purposes, the story means the same whether it was an Optionlock or a Timelock. For those unfamiliar, this can happen from time to time, particularly in stories where it becomes very difficult to determine whether the story comes to a close because of a lack of options or a lack of time.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1781789}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312341389.2849741, "message": "Personally, because of the whole audience reach issue and because of the widespread popularity of this film I would be inclined to lean more heavily towards Optionlock, though I understand and accept the argument for Timelock.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1781796}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312343024.1729071, "message": "Optionlock for sure. How many ways does he try to warn Doc?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1781937}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312343523.7339649, "message": "Well, let me lay out all of my thoughts:\nHe tries to warn Doc several ways, and Doc says, \"don't tell me!\" But Marty persists, and eventually writes the letter. When that doesn't work (as far as Marty knows) he resets the clock -- the final option.\n\nAlthough, weirdly, he's actually already done it -- he's just found one extra option. I thought there weren't supposed to be extra options!! Oh, wait, that option fails. And there's an infinite amount of failure-prone options.\n\nBUT... he needs to get to Doc before the lightning strike. It must be a timelock! Because that's the last shot he has. Except ... \"I have all the time in the world!\" So, it can't be a timelock. \n\nPerhaps he should have set the clock back 30 minutes... that would have been another option available to him. \n\nAll in all, I think this falls out to Optionlock.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1781980}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312345206.9065759, "message": "He feels fulfilled, and he does nothing else to actively change how his parents will turn out. (Plus, they kiss.) Finding out that they are different is just the proof.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1782089}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312343765.5989079, "message": "ahh - perfect - not a timelock because he has all the time in the world - great call", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1781988}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312344501.4786341, "message": "I'm just curious if it's all solved when he plays guitar at the dance, and it is awesome.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1782036}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312344191.4215651, "message": "Not to be persnickety, but for anyone who hasn't listened to a podcast: \"not a timelock\" isn't sufficient to make it an optionlock.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1782018}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312344385.6280551, "message": "Sweet, so what's your take on Martys problem?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1782032}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312345957.9300661, "message": "Didn't you argue that it was Avoidance?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1782125}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312347751.6004009, "message": "Arg! I had him as change!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1782238}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312345621.2301321, "message": "What does Marty's problem come up as?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1782109}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312347714.039408, "message": "His problem (drive) is Hinder. Not a big fan of people getting in his way.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1782234}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312347890.031857, "message": "Actually, that's really good, because as I was going through the storyform, I wanted Control to play a major part in the movie. And it's his Response, and the Response in the SS.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1782251}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312377326.3390329, "message": "U sold me on option lock. It seems so obvious after u pointed out the line, \"I've got all the time in the world.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1783919}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312381488.897748, "message": "Dramatically amazes me again with this process and how well it all works with the story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1784468}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312381670.577744, "message": "I luv this movie but 2 things bother me. 1: the fading to illustrate the benchmark and Biff there practically a part of the family at the end. I would like to discuss", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1784484}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312381394.910886, "message": "@jimhull can u explain your process? Had u analyzed this before or did u do it with us?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1784457}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312387511.550791, "message": "So in the OS it's self interest/ self preservation. TeenTimeTravelor just wants to stay alive and in order to do that he has to get his parents to fall in love. His family isn't perfect but as long as he can live, he'll take them. Getting them to stop avoiding is a bi- product of accomplishing his goal as protagonist.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1785260}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312387324.2392499, "message": "@MikeDerk \"Absolutely. All a character needs to do is try to solve his goal. We see what they are up to. (Show don't tell... Actions speak louder than words... etc.) That's why I asked about Marty ever implying he wants to fix his family. Did he even try to do it? I think NO. I think fixing his family is all fallout from his other needs, specifically in this case, getting them to fall in love.\" this a good revalation for me Mike", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1785240}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312390972.8314619, "message": "I was pretty confident that the fading photograph illustrated MC Benchmark of Progress. But with our current Storyform the benchmarks are the Past, Understanding, Developing a Plan and Memories. I like Memories, though it's a bit tricky. Basically, Marty learns these new things about his father. In another story with the same Storyform, the father could simply recall the 50's: \"You know, son. I used to write these sci-fi stories...\". Structurally speaking, the kid traveling back in time to listen the teenage version of his father is the same thing. Am I right?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1785636}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312391391.9119279, "message": "I got a general idea of what Marty's issue could be and hoped it would be under Preconception (once a McFly, always a McFly). Knowing that the IC Issue will be in the same spot in the quad under the IC Concern I liked Denial a lot.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1785672}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312391309.462363, "message": "@sam_potter as far as my process - I had no idea what the storyform would be a week ago when we started though I suspected OS-Activity, MC-Situation and so on. Years ago I thought for sure it was OS Situation, but the RS always seemed to be in Psychology to me.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1785667}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312391436.032851, "message": "I then went immediately to Obtaining and looked at the quad of elements. Control and Uncontrolled seemed to nail it and cross-referencing with the MC Issue of Preconception I was super-happy to see Control and Uncontrolled there as well.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1785676}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312391107.0639379, "message": "I think Marty's concern of the Future is measured by his comfortability with his family's Past. His ability to affect the Past and so on.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1785648}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312391541.3775561, "message": "Knowing that Marty was a Steadfast character I knew this connection implied that Control and Uncontrolled would be the Symptom and Response. The only question was determining which was which. I felt like Marty was more driven by Hinder then Help - people get in his way and it really raises the hairs on his neck! Selecting that picked Avoidance for OS and IC Problem and I loved that. The Pursuit Solution works particularly well, especially when you think of them heading to the future in the end.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1785685}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312391629.39815, "message": "Once you get the Concerns down, the trick is getting an overall feeling at first, picking what you \"hope\" the Issues will be and then zeroing in on one particular throughline. If the rest fall into place with your initial \"gut\" feeling then usually thats a good sign that you've got the right one.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1785690}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312394321.0075791, "message": "When I initially thought of Hiccup as the Antagonist and How To Train Your Dragon as a Failure story I thought I was completely nuts, until I went through it and Hiccup's Problem (Driver because he's steadfast) ended up being Protection -- without me choosing it. That cemented my confidence in the concept of it being a Personal Triumph story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1786105}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312395997.32251, "message": "@jimhull this has been a great experience. Thank you and everyone for participating. I still have ideas and questions about this story reeling in my head. Is it safe to read your article now?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1786470}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312396343.1263859, "message": "yeah go for it. i actually thought this was a perfect way to go about doing an online analysis. in the past, unmoderated attempts seem to go everywhere and are really confusing to keep up with. If you guys want to do another one, feel free to ask and I'll help as i can", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1786503}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312395778.8763471, "message": "I guess if changing ones nature is the consequence then Biff is the only one who didn't stop avoiding. I don't mind that he changed but I wish they would have illustrated it differently than making him the McFly sidekick. He tried to rape Loraine for gosh sakes.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1786443}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312397967.6630371, "message": "@Ville so, Marty's benchmark is his past (including before he was born ) then the photo is illustrating the progress of his affect on the past. I like it better now but it doesn't fit in the science of this world. Even if it were based on probabilities then everything that came back with Marty would have disappeared as soon as the Lorain's dad's car hit him & not George (I know I am getting into geek territory here)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1786729}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312421030.652024, "message": "@sam_potter You're not alone. I think it violates the science of the world too -- it just doesn't make any sense. That said, the story *needs* it. (I know you know that.)\n\nI've never been able to come up with a better idea, though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1790100}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312435362.3881681, "message": "@MikeDerk MC benchmark is the PAST, OS Benchmark is UNDERSTANDING, IC benchmark is MEMORIES, and RS benchmark is DEVELOPING A PLAN. In your opinion what is the most important to keep the stakes the highest because isn't that the purpose of the benchmark? or maybe a combination.?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1791157}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312437814.7415409, "message": "I think that answer is story-specific.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1791321}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312438103.0937769, "message": "In BTTF, I think that the storytellers put the focus on the polaroid because we all fear our own mortality and that was the best way to give us a creeping anxiety. \r\n\r\nBut, if we go with what Jim says, that The Past is really \"how well Marty can affect the past\" or \"his comfortability with the Past\" -- none of that actually has to do with the Polaroid.\r\n\r\nThe Past, it now seems to me, is more like \"Interdiction\" in this case. There's more pressure for him to interdict because time is running out.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1791326}, {"user_id": 35369, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312496262.065063, "message": "man I learned a ton doing this too... and have a lot better idea now of where I am weak. thx all, so helpful.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1797567}, {"user_id": 38285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312504728.4326661, "message": "Anyone interested in doing Charlie Kaufman's Adaptation? I had this fixed attitude that Kaufman's work is way too out there to have anything to do with structure. But after giving Adaptation a thought, I feel I have a good argument for all four Throughlines and Concerns.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1798372}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42322, "date_created": 1312647631.8062429, "message": "@Ville I would like to analyze 'Adaptation'", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1810094}]
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