convore.json/groups/dramatica/solution-of-control/messages.json

[{"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572904.8060679, "message": "You mean their domains, right, Jim? Not their status as MC/IC?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713825}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311573140.233954, "message": "of course, if your MC HAS to be a Situation character then you might have to change something else", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713840}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572986.0681069, "message": "This is what I screwed up when I responded to Jim's question earlier about how Uncontrolled showed up in the story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713829}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311538663.8994269, "message": "I have an MC whose solution is Control. (She's a change character, and the OS Solution is also control.)\n\nI've also imagined that she likes being in Control -- she's most comfortable when she's in control.\n\nThe thing that leaps to mind here is: if she's already always striving to be in control, can she have Control as a Solution?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1711108}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311538770.397408, "message": "What I'm wondering specifically is this: Nobody ever really has control. We want it, but it's always an illusion. So, could her solution actually be \"try to have less control\"? \n\nI think that's a restating of \"give up the illusion of Control\", btw.\n\nI want to make sure that I'm not trying to solve \"Uncontrolled\" with ... \"uncontrolled.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1711117}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311539394.1423321, "message": "This is an area I would like to learn more about.  Often in the Dramatica Users Group podcast I have hear Chris say (and I have to be careful here because often what I think I hear isn't quite right) ...I often hear him say something about the goal of obtaining could be about losing. My question is, once you take the opposite side there how does that effect the rest of the issues and elements, etc.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1711144}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311539652.546855, "message": "So if a solution is control which is no control does that automatically make the problem not enough un-control?  And then do you need to take the opposite of the sympton and response?  like an algebra problem where anything you do to one side you have to do to the other side of the equation?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1711163}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311543486.925024, "message": "I think it depends on whether one defines an outcome of success or failure as control doesn't have to be an illusion.  \n\nMost concerns dealing with control will stem from insecurities and fear.  Anyone cleaning to, asserting, or pursuing to control in this light will (most likely) end up with an outcome of failure because it is an illusion.  Beth in Ordinary People is a good example of this.\n\nWhere control is a positive outcome is when a person ultimately realizes the only control they have is how they respond to events outside of themselves.   This may result in an outcome of failure, but lead to a personal triumph where the character realizes the illusion but gains a greater understanding of themselves.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1711460}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311543813.088753, "message": "That being said, perhaps while control seems to be the problem - it's really perception with a solution of actuality?  A character perceives having more control over external things so they won't have to react (i.e. if person A would just do this instead of that, I wouldn't have to...).  \n\nBut in actuality, they realize they cannot control somebody else, only how they respond themselves to a situation (i.e., instead of trying to control person A to do this instead of that, they instead try to influence them by getting them to realize potential outcomes and their impacts).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1711491}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311555233.357276, "message": "How does her problem of Uncontrolled show up in your story?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1712316}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570164.9517169, "message": "ha!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713620}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311568611.24281, "message": "The problem of uncontrolled shows up like this: \nShe (theMC) believes she's got things laid out. \"I persisted, I got the job interview I wanted, I'm on my way, etc.\" But -- life interferes. Car tires blow out. Buses run late. Other candidates also show up. \n\nThat kind of thing. She gets blindsided.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713517}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311569820.7696021, "message": "I'm crossing from an old draft to a new outline, so there are some weird vestiges. This may be one of them.\n\nBut, yes, that's her personal problem for now. I would describe it as \"a poor sense of how the world works.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713597}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570318.828135, "message": "I might need to look at my storyform again, and see how I chose things down at the element level.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713634}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570542.387403, "message": "its on the 4th disk", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713650}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570569.1954019, "message": "can we stick to the topic please? Some of us (and by us, I mean me) are trying to learn something here!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713653}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570524.053489, "message": "Ooooh... does that have the track of me getting reemed in a story meeting?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713649}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571040.833585, "message": "I think I see a general problem with my writing -- I define MCs by what goes on around them.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713682}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311569311.3862441, "message": "That's her personal problem?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713568}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570082.4937601, "message": "I'm still decompressing from the Con, but that seems more extra-personal to me than personal.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713612}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570917.251312, "message": "Something about that seems off to me. It doesn't seem personal. Especially if she is a Change character.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713675}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570189.8686271, "message": "Scrap that.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713625}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570323.226754, "message": "haha!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713635}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571245.0747881, "message": "Classic. I think you should use that one.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713703}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571275.9860661, "message": "Let me ask an OS question that might clear things up.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713706}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571320.5234051, "message": "OS: Physics/Obtaining/Self-interest\n\nProblem could be: Avoidance/Pursuit/Control/Uncontrolled", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713710}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571362.9209659, "message": "We know that... I'll call them Prisoners... are escaping, and they have to be caught.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713712}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570133.1089129, "message": "Paraphasing Jim... \"blah blah blah blah I went to COMICON!!! blah blah blah.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713617}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570185.0913701, "message": "It's not like he's actually rubbing it in, Mike.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713622}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570384.4707291, "message": "Yeah, cause I could maybe see that as a Consider problem or maybe Proaction, but not really Uncontrolled - Uncontrolled isn't really her issue", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713640}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570467.645798, "message": "Hold on, I've got to load up my Convention-only 4-CD Complete X-Files Soundtrack...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713643}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570554.5471261, "message": "Sweet.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713652}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571078.7817731, "message": "yeah, like I could see your story as an Order problem, or maybe Inertia", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713683}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571239.015238, "message": "ha! sure", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713702}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572537.0477941, "message": "Lack of Pursuing the source of escape as problem?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713790}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570587.1717629, "message": "lol", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713655}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571701.8095689, "message": "but they wouldn't think of pursuit as the problem would they? they would think that these guys are free and need to be locked up, but the pursuit is only making things worse. Only when they avoid them do they finally solve the goal (or something like that). The MC example works fine.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713733}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572816.2768371, "message": "Besides take the title character and make her the IC.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713819}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572846.915915, "message": "Uh... I have totally screwed the pooch.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713821}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311570725.631793, "message": "Storyform is booting.\n\nI guess what I thought I was going for is something along the lines of \"She's trying to go down a life path that she's planned out, but cannot -- life throws too many curveballs. So, the solution is to take control of what's right in front of you and make the best of it.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713664}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571014.7059009, "message": "Yeah, I see where you're going. \"uncontrolled\" would be more like \"she shoots her mouth off\".", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713681}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571443.095072, "message": "\"Prisoners\" are escaping, and have to be caught.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713717}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571490.935113, "message": "They spend their time Pursuing them -- does that mean it can't be the problem? Being that nobody is aware of their Problem, only their Symptom?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713720}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572073.576237, "message": "They spend the first chunk of the story thinking that the solution is to put them back, and then realize the better solution is to figure out how they are escaping and put a stop to that.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713754}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571093.4928589, "message": "She misses the job interview because she goes and helps a puppy, unable to control her urges.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713684}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571102.8935039, "message": "or Expectation", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713685}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571114.620517, "message": "ok - well that works for Uncontrolled", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713686}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571130.7130311, "message": "No can do. OS is Physics/Obtaining.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713689}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571193.9294231, "message": "Her unbridled passion for ComicCon attendees makes her race across a highway in order to just see one up close, and she's hit by a car.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713696}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571673.1037841, "message": "Hmmm... I seem to have finally formulated a thought in my head.\n\nWe say that MCs aren't aware of their Problem. Is that also true for the OS story? It can't be -- Sarah Conner knew she was being Pursued by the Terminator.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713732}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572028.7799461, "message": "Is the solution to put them back, or to solve how/why they were escaping in the first place?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713751}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571613.0112889, "message": "Because if it's the Problem, then it will also be the MC Problem -- as in, \"She's pursuing a life she cannot have.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713731}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311571953.933161, "message": "See, okay, that's where I was coming from. They only solve the goal when these guys are caught and the lousy prison security is fixed -- when more control is put into place.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713745}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572005.4024739, "message": "sounds like the two throughlines don't mix quite right yet", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713748}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572009.933367, "message": "This forces Uncontrolled as the problem all around.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713749}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572788.4523511, "message": "Just flop the MC and IC", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713816}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572697.5142469, "message": "I think so.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713811}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572756.154186, "message": "That leaves a Symptom of Control, and a Response of Uncontrolled.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713814}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311573099.9372759, "message": "with problem of Pursuit, symptom of Control you have a Stop character, if you flop them and make her a Start character then you can get the Problem of Pursuit and Symptom of Uncontrolled which sounded more like the story you were telling", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713835}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311573897.16746, "message": "For example, I don't expect someone with a Fixed Attitude of \"I hate Spiders\" to suddenly pick that up ten pages into a story. They usually show up with it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713881}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572677.8112271, "message": "That sounds good.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713810}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572946.301841, "message": "Well, she's pretty much got a Situation as a problem. I don't see a way around that.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713828}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311574480.9210451, "message": "I'm going to go reconceive the storyform...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713923}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572614.187609, "message": "Then Avoidance as \"preventing them from escaping\"?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713800}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311572799.9142749, "message": "What does that do?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713818}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311574149.904495, "message": "i gotta go sleepy, nite all", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713898}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311574207.5525529, "message": "I hope your new Lost pillow is comfortable.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713902}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311573393.1415091, "message": "But, I think I forgot that when I was storyforming. BECAUSE... her situation doesn't start until ten pages into the story. I think that threw me off.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713861}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311574083.304673, "message": "I did just realize that she doesn't have to be a Change character. I was conflating two things -- one OS, one MC.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713892}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311573361.513073, "message": "She has to be a Situation character.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713859}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311573709.2537401, "message": "how did it throw you off?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713869}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311574015.251112, "message": "ahh, okay.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713887}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311574491.6295471, "message": "okay, I'm over on +", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1713924}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311596065.1321771, "message": "Ha!  Never mind what I said - I was thinking purely psychological and didn't even think about the dram definition which is different.  Guess it would help to do a one-a-day with each elements as I hadn't stumbled across \"uncontrolled\" yet (the word itself just sounds like it's struggling to be called something else).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1714878}, {"user_id": 10814, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311613303.1419721, "message": "Sorry, I forgot the \"?\" at the end of that last sentence.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1716597}, {"user_id": 10814, "stars": [], "topic_id": 42577, "date_created": 1311613278.5010641, "message": "When looking at the OS problem, it is not so much what the characters see as a problem so much as what is REALLY causing the problem.\n\nKeep in mind that ALL of Dramatica's questions ask about what happens, not what could, should, would, or appears to happen.  \n\nThe OS Problem asks, \"What is the source of conflict in the Overall Story throughline?\"  Translated in to non-Dramatica-speak, \"What causes conflict between all the characters, in one way or another and to varying degrees, when looking objectively at the efforts to achieve the story goal in the \"big picture\" part of the story.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 1716593}]