convore.json/groups/dramatica/the-dinner-game-storyform-analysis/messages.json

[{"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316227232.0994229, "message": "Need to go put the kids to bed... I'll bbl.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2147413}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316197570.9187319, "message": "Isn't having his wife walk out on him a repercussion of being a jerk?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144488}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316190526.0385709, "message": "A couple people wanted to revisit this film and try a crack at finding the storyform for it. As always, we start the bidding at 4 throughlines...anyone have thoughts on the Overall Story?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2143512}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316193010.7734671, "message": "Jim, thanks for hosting.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2143810}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316193618.1926789, "message": "I'm waiting for someone else to open the bidding.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2143926}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316195624.424165, "message": "I think the OS is finding the wife.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144217}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316194615.2695639, "message": "I'll see your 4 throughlines and raise you... Oh wait... Well, for OS, everyone seems to be dealing with perceptions.  It's hard to look at it from a bird's eye view and say THIS is what's going on, though.  Part of me wants to say they're all impacted by this quest for an idiot... Without Francois, Christine wouldn't have left and there wouldn't be any interactions with any other characters other than Dr. Sorbier.  \n\nSo, in some facet or another, they're all dealing with the disruption Francois brings about by his presence.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144062}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316194982.8148639, "message": "I'm going to stop you right here and ask that we just talk about what the four throughlines are without making any assessment about what might be underlying them.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144100}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316195437.407403, "message": "defining an idiot, or at least that's what I came away with.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144161}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316196575.337491, "message": "I had toyed with the idea of \"a bad back\" being one of the throughlines, which would include the doctor, but that seems to fade into nothing after a while.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144354}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316196667.2703719, "message": "So her behavior itself would most likely continue had Christine not left.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144369}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316197407.0214751, "message": "I'm playing devil's advocate here because if getting/locating the wife is the OS, what's the MC throughline?  Getting the wife seems personal to Pierre - I'm not sure why LeBlanc helps (that's a strange web there); the IC, Francois, to me seems to be trying to overcome loneliness... and the SS between him and Pierre is how to deal with people leaving you.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144465}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316195482.983022, "message": "I think it's \"getting the wife back\".", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144176}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316196290.5095279, "message": "What do you think the other 3 are?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144313}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316195163.0479119, "message": "Fair enough, the OS asks what is an idiot.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144124}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316195173.558557, "message": "I think the four throughlines are:\n* Dealing with the wife walking out\n* Being forced to rely on an idiot\n* Being elite\n* Being an idiot\n\nThose last two throughlines are terribly thought out.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144127}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316195387.290561, "message": "how about just the os first - what is everyone concerned with", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144151}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316196837.252938, "message": "Besides, she plays a direct part in the wife staying away because the idiot mistakes the two of them.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144389}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316196360.2155001, "message": "Do Marlene and Dr. Sorbier have anything to do with this as an OS throughline, though?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144323}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316196608.8957219, "message": "Marlene's also his mistress, so chances are she comes over on a regular basis when Christine isn't around, no?  Her \"leaving\" presents another opportunity to come over - she definitely wants that relationship to go to the next level.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144361}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316195607.3364379, "message": "I think there is a substantial about of back-story/lead up to the story beginning. The \"elites\" are setting up the dinner game, which offends the wife, and she walks out. After that point, every move is to find her.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144211}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316195739.9870551, "message": "semantics. I agree.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144249}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316195649.6940989, "message": "I said, \"getting the wife back\" but I really meant \"finding/locating her.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144223}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316196737.0347509, "message": "But it's only when Christine leaves that she gets upset that he isn't more welcoming to her. She should be promoted.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144372}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316196505.411361, "message": "Dr. Sorbier I haven't figured out.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144343}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316196489.4865, "message": "Marlene comes over because the wife is missing and she wants to comfort the husband and move in (so yes). It's part of dealing the wife being gone.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144341}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316196897.044982, "message": "Dr. Sorbier, btw, I think is part of the SS -- he cannot heal Pierre, which is why Pierre has to rely on Pignon.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144400}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316197627.805028, "message": "Yes.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144497}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316199805.318521, "message": "But, if we look at the dr. as a role played by Francois later, then it suffices.  Is that acceptable?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144773}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316197095.4756839, "message": "Agreed.  But, Marlene doesn't come over because Christine has left... Christine could have left and nothing would have happened had Francois not called Marlene.  So Francois is the reason Marlene is introduced... if I remember correctly.  Just trying to clarify this in my head.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144428}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316197213.9963839, "message": "Yes. I'm thinking along with you... he never would have called had the wife not left, she never would have come had the wife not left... (She would have come later, the next week?, but not then... and that would have removed her from the movie.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144447}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316197653.9355299, "message": "Perhaps it's more atoning for being a jerk?  Locating her isn't going to resolve his issue, correct?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144508}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316199624.8601699, "message": "Good point.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144754}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316197442.933254, "message": "I don't see it that way at all.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144472}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316197482.816499, "message": "I think Pierre's throughline has to do with \"repercussions of being a jerk.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144478}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316197707.8167861, "message": "The obstacles he has to overcome to find the wife have nothing to do with being a jerk. That's why I think \"locating her\" is the OS and not \"dealing with being a jerk.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144519}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316197794.2557409, "message": "Gotta run to pick up the nephew from school...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144536}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316198329.9187851, "message": "false alarm, got two blocks and got a call that I don't have to...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144624}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316199144.2751341, "message": "She's not concerned about locating her, just her location.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144717}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316198943.7549689, "message": "So everyone is concerned with finding the wife?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144697}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316199075.6295669, "message": "I don't think the Dr. is... and Marlene would just as soon have her stay away, which is still being concerned with it (negatively) though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144708}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316198800.2457359, "message": "Ok, I'll buy that - the OS is locating her and the MC is repercussion of being a jerk?  Sorry for the slow response, my mind is trying to solve a problem by looking at it from every angle, lol.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144671}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316198842.667666, "message": "That's why we're here.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144677}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316198848.0731781, "message": "We're all doing that.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144680}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316199014.253849, "message": "Maybe it's broadened to \"The wife walking out\" because that includes the mistress better. And the Goal is more like \"locating the wife.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144703}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316199165.145139, "message": "right.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144719}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316200394.163137, "message": "True, but we can't necessarily assume because it's set in a foreign country - that may be more the norm elsewhere.  Or, his coming over is a result of Pierre's inability to move well.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144835}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316199864.844521, "message": "It's kind of a cheat, but it's not if strictly looking at it as roles played.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144778}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316200007.1775811, "message": "Oh, I don't think so.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144792}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316201628.3227761, "message": "But if any name would have worked, there's a hole in the argument. That's all I'm saying.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144966}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316201694.2783041, "message": "right", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144975}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316199388.447324, "message": "The Dr. leaves before Pierre receives the voice mail where Christine tells him she may not be coming back, so his involvement is limited to before that point.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144730}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316199877.7404599, "message": "I don't understand.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144780}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316200512.8026049, "message": "Here's where we find out that Jim thinks we're way off, anyway.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144849}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316200918.8956039, "message": "I don't think it links him any more than finding the name of a doctor in a phone book.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144897}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316201201.3703201, "message": "Essentially, his function in the OS is served by having his \"persona\" used to locate Christine.  Could Francois have picked up a phone book and used any name?  Sure...  I know, I'm reaching here, lol... but it's really no different than using the name Rollo Tomosi in LA Confidential, is it?  It serves a point to overcome an obstacle.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144922}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316199920.3256681, "message": "Francois pretends to be the Dr. Later on in an effort to reach Christine.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144784}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316200043.9420271, "message": "But, I think the doctor might be something more like a representation of his status: that a doctor comes to his house.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144798}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316200495.7445221, "message": "I'm extrapolating from his other riches, for sure.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144847}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316200751.37286, "message": "I still don't understand what you are trying to do, btw.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144882}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316201304.0094111, "message": "Rollo Tomasi was the only name that would have worked. It was a \"code word\" that only those two men would understand because it was a secret.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144939}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316201475.705559, "message": "Right, I understand that - the point being it's just a device to move the story forward.  Why does Francois use the Doctor's name?  It advances the plot, that's all, really.  So the name \"serves\" the plot in that sense... otherwise, I don't see how we can link the Dr.'s function to the OS argument.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144955}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316204279.848846, "message": "So what do you think the story goal is?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145227}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316199948.970062, "message": "When she's in the hospital.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144787}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316200702.0895729, "message": "@jimhull - is that a cheat if we look at characters as functions and have one adopt another's persona as in Tootsie?  That's how I'm trying to link the Dr. to the OS, not so much as a character, but as a function - the whole issue of perception will come up later - but he \"assumes\" that function to deceive in order to locate Christine.  Is that acceptable, or is that \"nope, can't do that unless it's Jekyll and Hyde\"?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144872}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316200860.1927309, "message": "I'm trying to link the \"role\" of the Dr., his function within the story, to the OS argument of finding Christine.  Francois calls the hospital and pretends to be Dr. Sorbier, using his name to locate her and be transferred to her.  In that light, I would think it include his function, not necessarily his character, in the OS of finding/locating Christine.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144894}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316201226.4678609, "message": "@JBarker, I don't know, that seems like too much work, particularly for the OS", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144925}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316201681.6537969, "message": "true, but we can only go by how the story is presented - we can't make assumptions otherwise and reinterpret with what ifs... correct?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144973}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316201705.028934, "message": "Also, the doctor is there to demonstrate to the audience that Pierre must stay in the house. (that, and the pain). And, I would say that Pignon going to the journal to find the phone number and calling \"hissister\" instead is more to your point.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144976}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316202862.5531051, "message": "Define what an idiot is.  All the things that happen help to establish that.  The whole idea of the contest, which becomes non-existent, is to find the best idiot - Pierre thinks he's got one, but the idiot ends up making an idiot out of him.  In the end, the behavior that Pierre thought was justification for Francois being an idiot turns out to have different meaning altogether:  Pierre had a false perception of how to define an idiot ultimately realizes he's the biggest one for it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145085}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316201764.280266, "message": "The planner, not the journal.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144982}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316203774.5489049, "message": "I'm looking at what he reacts to.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145175}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316201809.401598, "message": "Anyway, the doctor is the only reason Pignon goes to the phone.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2144991}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316202472.0520821, "message": "Let me just throw out there my original justification for being an idiot as the OS.  Every character is concerned with \"being an idiot\" at some point or another, whether it's for themselves or someone else.  \n\nPierre thinks Francois is an idiot.  In the end, he learns he's the real idiot.  \n\nFrancois plays the idiot and is perceived as one. \n\nLeBlanc laughs at Pierre's situation (complications), making Pierre feel like an idiot because of the idiot.\n\nChristine leaves Pierre because of the idiot dinner (or so we can assume). \n \nCheval laughs at the situation until he realizes he's the idiot - the guy he's auditing is sleeping with his wife. \n\nDr. Sorbier says something to the effect of \"I hope I never get invited to one of your dinners, I might have the wrong notion\".\n\nThe character at the beginning who is chosen for the dinner, his friend says \"Why would somebody be interested in an idiot like you?\".  \n\nThe only one I can't connect to this off the top of my head is Marlene, though it's sort of implied Pierre thinks she's an idiot.  \n\nEven Francois calls the guy who took his wife an idiot.  \n\nEveryone, in some way or another, is perceived, or perceives someone, as being an idiot.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145053}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316202663.5721631, "message": "What would the Goal be?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145067}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316205486.914602, "message": "What do you think the other throughlines are?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145326}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316213788.829385, "message": "Jim?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146104}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316203052.9773209, "message": "But no one is trying to define an idiot.\n\nI think what you point out is the author's intent. It's the irony that makes the movie fun. Having everyone at some point be an idiot seems like the setting, or the theme, maybe.\n\nBut, setting a murder mystery at a clown convention doesn't make 'being the clown' the OS. It doesn't matter that everyone is a clown. That's just how things were portrayed. The OS would still be about solving the murder.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145100}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316203499.819397, "message": "I'll flip that around, too. In \"Contagion\" the movie is about the continued fallout of an epidemic. In that way, it seems like your argument.\n\nBut people react to it, it changes, spreads... \n\n\"What is an idiot\" doesn't change or motivate people over the course of the movie. Cheval doesn't react to \"now I look like an idiot.\" He reacts to his wife's affair.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145149}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316203744.8444021, "message": "Well no, nobody is actively trying to define what an idiot is.  I guess a better way of looking at it is what problem is the story trying to address?  To me, it's perception.  That's getting way ahead in the conversation, though.  \n\nI would say Cheval reacts by telling Pierre he's going to come back and audit him...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145173}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316203807.0210099, "message": "What the story is trying to address is important, but it's something (I find) that never gets talked about!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145180}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316204291.8757019, "message": "To locate the wife.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145231}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316203970.3230281, "message": "A guy gives a lecture on astrophysics. He comes off like an idiot. His goal (teach) is not the goal of the story (make us laugh at this idiot). Even his obstacles (he forgot to pay the electricity bill) don't have to point us to the point of the moive (an obstacle could be \"the audience gets shifty because they think he is an idiot).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145199}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316204356.7687581, "message": "Why does Pignon stay? Why does he pretend to be a producer? Why do they call the tax auditor? Why do they cook for the tax auditor? All to find the wife.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145238}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316204603.4557159, "message": "Oh, I agree with finding the wife... it's just the doctor is the hang up that I've been trying to rationalize around.  Should we ask for the judge's ruling, lol?  Jim?   This is my first time going through this with everyone, so I don't know how literal we are with having all the characters in the OS.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145263}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316204753.332469, "message": "The doctor might be part of the \"jerk\" throughline. He did bring ugly girls to dinner in college.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145280}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316205160.113709, "message": "Good call, that justifies the behavior from some outside himself.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145302}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316204420.6408639, "message": "What you said. But I don't think it's relevant to this conversation. Yet, anyway.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145243}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316204388.698149, "message": "Ooops, I knew that.  I meant, what do you think the story is trying to address?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145241}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316206858.8374901, "message": "I don't have any issues with the MC \"jerk\" throughline.  The IC with Francois as being the compassion-filled, good intentioned idiot.  The SS is the relationship between them, Pierre being a bossy jerk to people to achieve things he wants, whereas Francois has empathy and compassion.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145464}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316207012.538861, "message": "Weigh in when you can.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145486}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316207612.0727091, "message": "I'll be back in a few...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145543}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316207001.7065179, "message": "I'm still catching up...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145485}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316206987.0231509, "message": "Sounds good to me!  Anybody else have any opinions?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145482}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316206931.485038, "message": "We're on the same page, then.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145475}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316209232.9425061, "message": "I think I'm good with those throughlines", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2145660}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316217381.992018, "message": "I wasn't able to get back on via the iphone app...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146420}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316218055.473418, "message": "I'm on it right now...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146468}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316219096.340673, "message": "helper/and...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146539}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316218237.4130321, "message": "I think mine was an OS issue. I had to restart. But in general, it often times out.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146480}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316218436.043469, "message": "sry big meetings today - so consensus is os - finding the wife, mc - Pierre, ic - Francois, ss - ?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146498}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316219010.925338, "message": "@JBarker but what kind of relationship do they have? not their argument but how would you classify it? lovers? siblings? teacher/student?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146528}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316219208.9037969, "message": "trying to think of a good word to summarize Pierre", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146556}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316218506.617425, "message": "I'm gonna rewatch it again this weekend, but for some reason the os doesn't sound quite right to me...its enough to go on for now though", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146504}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316218585.394402, "message": "ss the relationship between the two, Pierre's bossy jerk approach to Francois compassionate, empathetic.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146507}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316218616.6217289, "message": "@jimhull np.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146512}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316219507.9252541, "message": "dictatorial, perhaps.  Domineering and subservient.  Inferior and subordinate.  Along those lines.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146583}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316219627.81481, "message": "Ooops, superior and inferior.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146588}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316221854.064002, "message": "I'm starting to be convinced that  @JBarker is on to something, and that \"who is an idiot\" is closer to the OS than anything else we've been talking about.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146790}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316221975.076695, "message": "I feel the need to watch it again.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146800}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316222369.3833621, "message": "my thing with analysis and writing is I always work backwards, so starting up front at the beginning is pretty difficult.  If I can locate the solutions first, then I can identify the problem easier (or so I think, lol).  If I can't identify the problem, the solution is that much harder to grasp.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146840}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316225804.285393, "message": "And certainly Pierre is marked by a sense of overbearing pride.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2147265}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316222249.6457989, "message": "really what led me to believe that was Pierre's epiphany that he's the true idiot, stating that Francois and he would still go to the dinner, but Pierre would be Francois guest.  That's the main character having a self-revelation and the moment would serve as the OS/IC/MC/SS all being resolved in one instance - assuming that's the OS, that is.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2146827}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316224713.4326949, "message": "Here's a question: does Pierre at any point seemingly give up on finding Christine?  I can't recall off the top of my head, but I do recall a number of instances where he's sending Francois to the door and I'm trying to recall if that's in apparent defeat (as in, I'm just going to go to bed).  Francois, however, keeps insisting or finding ways to continue the plight.  Am I recollecting that correctly in terms of Pierre facing something of a temporary defeat?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2147096}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316225388.296097, "message": "The first time, Pierre tells Francois, \"She'll be back. Now go home, and good night!\" Don't know about the other instances though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2147198}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316225709.5966799, "message": "Ok, that plays into the perception problem.  I'm trying to think of other ways of defining their relationship.  Arrogance vs. humility/meekness/servility/modesty/self-consious/etc.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2147254}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316226826.7670281, "message": "He's definitely reluctant to accept Francois' help... that seems to be where he accepts defeat.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2147354}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316227276.8169551, "message": "the IC, Francois, is about having humility to achieve goals - he's put in a position where he has to root for the other soccer team in order to have Cheval come over and assist.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2147422}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316227589.8295441, "message": "which would put the MC throughline at having Pierre dealing with having his wife walk out on him.  That's the problem we experience in *this* particular story with the MC and what we're invested in seeing is how Pierre would resolve this with his unique problem of being arrogant.  \n\nDoes that make sense?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2147501}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316227075.4437251, "message": "Right, essentially because he's arrogant and a) doesn't think he needs Francois help and b) she'll come back.  So the SS is more or less Pierre learning to swallow his pride and be humble in an effort to win his wife's affection back.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2147397}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316228278.450593, "message": "Pierre doesn't believe anything bad can happen to him, that is why he believes his wife will be back.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2147619}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316228389.8798981, "message": "Right, that's part of the arrogance.  His arrogance is also displayed via his tax evasion and believing he'll never get caught.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2147637}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316228681.9731791, "message": "And following the wife, he originally thinks she's with LeBlanc... Then Meneaux's because that's what LeBlanc believes - that she's been wooed by him... but Meneaux's really with Cheval's wife.  By the end of it, I can't remember if it's revealed where Christine actually was?  Either way, that all plays into the perception being the crucial element later on down the road.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2147679}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316229208.088238, "message": "It's late here on the other coast, catch everyone later.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2147720}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316230103.399473, "message": "If you can I'd avoid talking specific elements till we get down the road.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2147835}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316233268.0770359, "message": "The reason being that its generally easier to find a storyform that fits the story rather than a story that fits the storyform.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2148039}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316234633.636739, "message": "SS: Puppetmaster & faulty puppet.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2148099}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316235295.2938349, "message": "But I think Francois manipulates Pierre just as much.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2148143}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316235408.557126, "message": "Really?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2148151}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316235412.930203, "message": "I really meant it more like Pierre cannot do the work -- he has to have Pignon do it for him. Pignon is like his tool.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2148153}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316235488.8232999, "message": "Yeah, okay, that makes sense.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2148166}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316238159.34393, "message": "So many posts lost...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2148298}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316238485.0214579, "message": "I've come to think that the OS is \"letting the idiot make a fool of himself.\" \n\nPignon makes a fool of himself on the train. This gets him offered up to Pierre, where he continues this. Meanwhile, the doctor tells a similar story and the wife reacts negatively to the dinner as a whole.\n\nPierre -- the Elitist, rather, does little to make the fool do foolish things. The fool takes care of that on his own, but the Elitist is required to use him because of circumstances.\n\nIn the end, we see that the Elitist has been making a fool of himself too.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2148315}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316238646.3446031, "message": "Then we have these as potential throughlines:\nLocating the wife\nCome-uppance for being arrogant", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2148322}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316238708.800916, "message": "We are one short.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2148328}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316261882.8650031, "message": "It's interesting you brought up the train scene at the beginning.  When I first watched this, I honestly did not see him as being an idiot.  His actions on the train were deliberate in an attempt to strike up a conversation, to which he kept going on and on.  I was actually disappointed with the movie early on, but enjoyed it more as it went along - but even more so on the second viewing.  \n\nI just didn't personally perceive his hobby to be all that idiot-worthy, thinking to myself, gosh, maybe these people should get to know some of the people I know instead.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2149368}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316262328.8754139, "message": "\"letting the idiot make a fool of himself\" I think pretty much applies to everyone - we know LeBlanc laughs at Pierre.  We have the doctor relating his experience and not wanting to be invited to dinner.  Cheval laughs at Pierre's circumstance, but ultimately finds he's the victim of said circumstance - arguably becoming the one to be laughed at.  And I can't recall specific dialogue, but as I said earlier, I think it's safe to presume Pierre thinks Marlene's a fool for believing he would ever leave Christine for her; she's just a fling.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2149392}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316267994.0111511, "message": "I think the IC as Francois is about \"having a meaningful relationship\" or something to that effect.  w", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2149757}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316268199.004595, "message": "These models are really a very clever symbol with dual purposes:  they're the initial reason why he's perceived as an idiot - what kind of person would make a model of the Eiffel Tower with 300,000+ matches?  An idiot!  Or so it would seem...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2149766}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316268471.166193, "message": "But when it's revealed what these models really symbolize, his loneliness, we can see on what scale Francois must have been suffering.  This, to me, explains why he initiates the train scene, why he agrees to come over to meet Pierre, and ultimately why he won't leave the man alone.  He both realizes what it's like to be alone and has empathy for Pierre's situation, but he himself is in need of some interaction/camaraderie human connection... so much so he'll go to great lengths to obtain this.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2149775}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316268096.72278, "message": "oops.  When we look at his character from start to finish, we see a single man who starts the film seemingly desperate/craving for attention and/or human interaction.  He initiates the whole incident on the train as an excuse to talk about his works of art.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2149765}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316289802.163203, "message": "Thanks.  Can't celebrate too much though because they still owe me for another win and the IRS is involved with that one.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2151626}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316279050.7614319, "message": "its probably enough to simply identify the four throughlines rather than go into too much detail with them, i think we have the mc, ic, and ss defined and the os is...kinda sorta there. if everyone is cool with what we have for now we could move on to mc resolve...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2150724}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316279582.4776859, "message": "Sure.\n\nI think MC Resolve is steadfast. I see no changes, first of all, and the things I identify him with (the matchsticks, the desire to help, his goofy and unshakeable enthusiam) all stay the same.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2150771}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316281354.433058, "message": "I had mc as change because I interpreted Pierre being the mc.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2150841}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316282849.1063881, "message": "Oh, whoops. Yes, Pierre changes.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2150959}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316283817.18806, "message": "MC = change, agreed.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2151053}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316284002.0309501, "message": "Just to clarify, I think Pierre is the MC but I went ahead and talked only about the IC a few posts ago. \n\nLooks like someone will be taking me to dinner soon.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2151065}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316284147.288691, "message": "Oh, and about the beginning of the movie, it had never occurred to me that Pignon was anything less than an idiot on the train. I still think he is. But, how his idiocy is expressed in wholly different from the train to everything else.\n\nIn the beginning, he's uber-enthusiastic and socially unaware. In the apartment, he's incapable of carrying out or understanding a plan. (The movie does make it clear in the beginning that \"love of an esoteric hobby\" = idiot before we meet Pignon, but it doesn't explain why said love means you are also a fool in general. It has never bothered me, and probably never will, but it's interesting.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2151084}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316285163.5802751, "message": "Okay, so then what's next?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2151193}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316287786.6394379, "message": "How does Pierre change?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2151423}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316288350.2896841, "message": "he goes from being arrogant, know it all bossy to having empathy.  One way specifically is he constantly tells Francois what to do and how to do it (follow the script!).  At the moment of crisis, he backs off as Francois makes the phone call to the hospital.  Afterward, he admits he's the idiot.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2151464}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316288397.0034311, "message": "OT: it's nice to finally receive $$ from a screenplay contest I won.  Yippee!!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2151468}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316289640.7936659, "message": "Congratulations.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2151601}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316290204.686975, "message": "You put a lien on their house?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2151675}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316300752.636097, "message": "Pierre is driven by external things. He wants the good wine, the art, the clothes. He takes his friend's wife. That seems more do-er to me.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152760}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316300860.144294, "message": "He certainly has charisma and influence.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152770}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316290249.1596839, "message": "I think Pierre changes by seeing Pignon as someone who has feelings that can get hurt. Prior to the phone call to the wife and the story about why he builds matchstick models, Pignon is a plaything.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2151684}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316290878.1743, "message": "@JBarker Congrats.\nYeah, I see Pierre as changing at the point of the phone call to Christine--from seeing Francois solely as an idiot, to seeing him as a person.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2151765}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316292568.0448151, "message": "Also, Pierre gets a dose of how someone else perceives him via the phone call.  It's like he has a reality check by hearing himself reduced and realizes it's actually accomplishing something.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2151945}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316299015.313241, "message": "If his approach is to always do something, perhaps, but he's too \"bossy\", wanting to be in control by directing them to do things.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152583}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316295302.464725, "message": "did you skip over growth?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152228}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316295665.265101, "message": "At least in terms of this story because Pierre isn't capable of physically doing anything.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152281}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316303075.411952, "message": "I've been MIA (wedding tomorrow) but I think be-er, male", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153057}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316295238.1418829, "message": "Excellent. MC Resolve: Change. How about MC Approach?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152221}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316295344.1177909, "message": "Growth (I find) is so nuanced that it's difficult to rely on at this stage.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152236}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316295583.664341, "message": "I would say be-er for approach.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152273}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316297774.0348649, "message": "I say Male, but I can't really figure out the MC Throughline to point to examples.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152463}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316298820.5055089, "message": "I would say that \"not being able to do anything physically\" might qualify as a do-er??", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152549}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316299192.3341739, "message": "He's constantly telling the doctor what to do or how to do it.  Same with Francois.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152598}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316298314.6851261, "message": "We usually skip Growth because it can sometimes feel like it could go either way. Approach is either doer or beer, but you need examples.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152506}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316300501.09358, "message": "He needs an idiot -- he tells a friend. He needs to test the idiot -- he brings him over. But this feels like the OS, not the MC Throughline.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152735}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316298777.300066, "message": "God, I'm out to lunch. I was sitting here thinking, \"Male/Female is Problem Solving Style\" yet here I am typing it out...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152539}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316299234.4340439, "message": "The thing is, Pierre never apologizes (until the very end) for who he is. He doesn't ever hide, which makes it tough for me to see him as a be-er.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152602}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316299376.2963769, "message": "But a be-er approach is mental, correct?  Pierre doesn't strike me, in all his arrogance and social stature, as being one to get his hands dirty.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152619}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316299778.143023, "message": "What's his first approach after hearing Christine's message?  Isn't it to be manipulative?  To call LeBlanc in disguise?  If so, he's not physically doing anything about the problem, rather he's using a more mental approach to locate her via deception.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152652}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301465.6760211, "message": "Here's a moment: he hides his art to appear poorer. Is that do-er or be-er?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152847}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301484.0360019, "message": "I think it's be-er because it makes him appear to be a different, poorer, man to the auditor.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152851}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316300918.1122749, "message": "I know.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152775}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301682.946177, "message": "Looks like Be-er, right? Now Mike, we can do Problem Solving Style ;)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152874}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301803.229249, "message": "Love to.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152881}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316300896.174576, "message": "that's a be-er.  \"If a Do-er is seen as active physically, a Be-er should be seen as active mentally. While the Do-er jumps in and tackles the problem by physical maneuverings, the Be-er jumps in and tackles the problem with mental deliberations.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152774}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316300711.869889, "message": "Being a Be-er is changing who you are to get things done. I'm curious if Pignon is a be-er because he adopts a hobby in order to counter his heartache.\n\nThinking along those lines, if his motivation is to make friends to fill that hole, then he is adopting attitudes and behaviors that he thinks the other people will like.\n\nAlso, he takes insults to heart... he internalizes them. When he screws up, he hides in the corner. (Internalization). When he runs into the wife in the hallway, he puts on the mask of a good friend in the know.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152756}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316300802.6460271, "message": "From the book, which best describes Pierre:   Some would rather adapt their environment to themselves through action, others would rather adapt their environment to themselves through strength of character, charisma, and influence.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152764}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316300941.4357691, "message": "That's more like, \"I know\" (shrug). \"Why the hell can't I figure this out?\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152776}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301028.7210419, "message": "Haha.  I know, too.  Well, that's why when I think of do-er, I can't see him physically jumping to do something to resolve the problem.  He can't go over to LeBlanc's, but instead, they concoct this scheme to have Francois call (why Pierre can't call, I don't recall).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152779}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301057.9878969, "message": "LeBlanc will know his voice.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152781}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301109.6702659, "message": "Again, we're supposed to be talking about just his personal throughline.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152784}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301232.6911471, "message": "right, didn't we agree the MC throughline is locating the wife/getting her back?  That's the problem that's personal to Pierre.  The OS being either who's an idiot or letting the idiot play the part of the idiot.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152792}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301319.554987, "message": "But everyone is pitching in to help get the wife back.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152797}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301813.558161, "message": "Optionlock.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152883}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301816.9380009, "message": "hahaha.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152884}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316302025.6827121, "message": "Agreed.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152919}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301228.6098461, "message": "Right, but there's a lot of mental deliberation on how to go about making the phone call, correct?  Call and pretend you're a movie producer, from france... no, belgium, or whatever...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152791}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301332.9184871, "message": "I think Pierre's problem has to do with being a jerk who drove his wife away.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152803}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301359.9675391, "message": "He has to face up to his sins vis-a-vis LeBlanc. He has to admit to Pignon about being a fool.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152812}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301375.6179521, "message": "Pignon tries to say, \"he's a changed man inside.\" on the phone.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152819}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316302866.2721081, "message": "I'm also going to go for Optionlock when we get there. If the goal is about discovering who the real idiot is, then every move they make is a place where an \"option\" comes into play.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153026}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301560.274122, "message": "I would agree with be-er there because it's \"mental\".  He's trying to change a perception.  He's not doing anything to actually change his reality.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152857}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301962.987437, "message": "Pignon on the other hand tries to get people interested in his work. Which is sort of like working on their motivations... Female.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152893}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316303252.530184, "message": "The wedding shouldn't be a problem. You can get Convore on your phone.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153080}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316301874.762692, "message": "Male. He has very deliberate plans. Call him, do this. Say you need to get a hold of the co-author, where is she?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2152887}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316304279.6359169, "message": "Nevertheless, I'm going to say (because I'm running off soon) that the OS Goal is \"to make a fool out of Pignon\" which is a failure. But because Pignon immediately answers the phone when the wife calls back from the hospital, I'm going to say that it's judgment \"Bad\" -- wife doesn't come back, admitting this guy was ok was a mistake, I'm going to get audited...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153178}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316303715.921942, "message": "Brutal.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153124}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316303344.53564, "message": "I'm stuck in the car for an hour now. And no, Mike, I'm not driving.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153091}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316303649.9890511, "message": "Okay, I killed the conversation, so I'm gonna ask what comes next?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153120}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316303803.0027139, "message": "I think we're headed for Judgment and Outcome.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153129}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316303993.6600389, "message": "What did we decide the MC& OS throughlines were?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153143}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316304634.051203, "message": "I agree...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153206}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316304055.6043971, "message": "Or I should say, did we nail them down?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153150}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316304271.5196769, "message": "No.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153177}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316304387.6990449, "message": "I think judgment bad for the same reasons.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153181}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316304541.722229, "message": "The thing that is hanging me up about the OS Goal is that the only thing I feel like people are pursuing is the wife.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153199}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316304880.029129, "message": "I wouldn't think of it as pursuing... but rather what is everybody concerned with.  Not everyone is concerned or pursuing to make a fool of Pignon.  It's certainly not Francois intent.  The Doctor doesn't.  I don't think Marlene does, either.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153228}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316305158.690527, "message": "For instance, in The Sixth Sense, the OS is what's wrong with Cole?  Everybody is impacted by Cole's behavior, but not everybody is pursuing a resolution to it (the kids who taunt him/his teacher/etc.)  It's the objective, bird's eye view of things as they happen, not the motivations/justifications which are more personal.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153285}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316305988.7017851, "message": "The Protagonist has to be pursuing the goal.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153374}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316305755.8915241, "message": "I'll check in again later...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153357}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316308263.3287671, "message": "@mikederk, right and the protagonist also drives the story.  I'd have to watch the movie again, but I'm wanting to say Francois is the protagonist - just not the MC.  He's the one driving all the complications.  Perhaps the OS is simply, being an idiot.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153595}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316307709.6182821, "message": "Decision.  They decide on thing, i.e. making the phone call, before they actually take the action.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153559}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316307281.578064, "message": "ok, so problem-solving-style: Linear (Male) - I know there was discussion about Optionlock, Outcome and Judgment, but what about the Story Driver - Action or Decision?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153514}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316309880.556628, "message": "@JBarker haha. Maybe so. \n\nClearly, we need to figure out this OS.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153754}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316309815.690186, "message": "Action. The Act of picking up the phone cements the end of the movie. The act of spilling the art on the train alerts the guy to Pignon. Opening the \"bathroom\" door leads to the discovery of the art. Calling the lovenest leads to the discovery of the affair. Christine walking out leads to the pursuit of her.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153751}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316310368.9925039, "message": "the chicken/egg thing with decision/action always gets me.  Because I can see what @mikederk is saying, but being the psych guy I am, I'm almost always going with decision before action.  So to me, Francois picking up the phone is an action done with intent, meaning he's made a decision to take action.  If the action has a purpose, then it had to have been decided on prior -- which is actually contrary Francois behaviors throughout the film - he takes actions without really making decisions (decisions at least with forethought to consequences).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153812}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316310864.941294, "message": "I know if it's action that starts it, then action needs to finish it - I'm just trying to define the two specific \"points\" in dramatica terminology.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153860}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316310752.7917371, "message": "I forget in dramatica-land, the action/decision is tied to the inciting incident and the moment of crisis?  Or how would that be stated correctly?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153851}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316311097.596453, "message": "Anyway, I *think* I got that somewhat right, so here's what I was thinking:  tjere", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2153884}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316312410.8786671, "message": "Yeah, that's a totally new foreign language: tjere.  I was thinking perhaps defining the inciting incident(s) would help clarify/define the throughlines - I feel there's actually two: the OS story starts with Francois on the train and the MC's problem starts with receiving the message.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2154000}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316324227.5853159, "message": "1. They force the next things; or, 2. They influence the next things. For example: it was common in Mexico a couple of decades ago (and maybe still?) for the politicians to say things like, \"We hate American companies coming in to our country. We've decided to tax them 100%.\" But, then on the sly, they would kiss America's butt. Their action (kissing butt) affected how American companies felt about Mexico. If their action had been something like seizing production plants, American companies would have felt differently. The different actions would have forced different outcomes, feelings, actions, decisions, etc.\nMikeDerk about a minute ago starstar reply delete\n\nFor a decision, think about D-day. The armed forces decided where they were going to land in Europe. This set off a cascade of planning. The decision to invade and where and when to invade dictated certain actions. Had the decisions been different (\"we're going to parachute into Berlin\") everything after that point would have been different.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2154899}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316324225.152401, "message": "So many more lost posts!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2154898}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316447660.1645181, "message": "So where were we?  Did we make a decision on action or decision, or do we need to take action on that?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2165507}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316448630.870894, "message": "I'm hoping my explanation made sense to you. If it did, does it change your mind?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2165874}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316453272.3300371, "message": "I think the last thing turns Pierre's judgment to \"Bad.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166584}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451920.046381, "message": "I'm still celebrating a Steelers win/Ravens loss...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166399}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316450821.6752861, "message": "It's not the gentlemen's life, nor Francois, that gets turned upside down.  Stepping outside of dramatica for a second, Truby would define the Inciting Incident as being the moment the answer to a desire - in this case, finding an idiot to bring to dinner - ends up putting the story from the frying pan and into the fire.  It ends up being the worst thing that causes all sorts of problems.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166240}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451346.3911309, "message": "truby's definition of the inciting incident (first story driver) is not the same as Dramatica's", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166306}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451360.662256, "message": "I think that inciting incidents are good to talk about, generally, but I think we should be careful when doing a breakdown. They aren't quite the same thing.\n\nThat said, I think that Pignon arriving at the house might be the second incident of the driver.\n\nLet's look at the opening of the movie. The opening scenes, as I recall are: \nBoomerang guy \nBank teller in bar \nBoomerang guy again \nPierre talking to the gentleman (about his father! Ruthless.) \nTrain... Pignon spills are and talks. \nGolf injury. \nGentleman offers Pignon up to Pierre. \nPierre calls.\nPignon decides on a tie. \nWife leaves Pierre. \nChiro comes. They talk about the dinner and college exploits.\nPignon comes. \n\nIt's just so late in the movie to be looked at as the first driver.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166310}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451832.439126, "message": "on the train, with Francois.  Action.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166380}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452159.7854259, "message": "Ugh.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166431}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316450139.6839149, "message": "I'm re-reading some notes here...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166148}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316450454.587625, "message": "Ok, I'm looking at the inciting incident as it relates to the action/decision.  I think you went with action as it related to the spilling of the photos.  But... I'm sort of looking at that action as being isolated - meaning, if Francois spilled the photos to anyone else, the story wouldn't have happened.  I'm thinking what drives it is the gentlemen making the decision - and I forget exactly what it is - to pass Francois along to Pierre?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166198}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316450571.391587, "message": "That being the decision to have Pierre \"audition\" for the dinner is countered by Pierre deciding that he ultimately is the idiot.  Everything else that I can think of off the top of my head between is decision then action; the decision to make the phone calls, plot them out, etc., then take action.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166219}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451608.488682, "message": "@jimhull I realize that, but at the same time, unless I'm missing something, I don't see where dramatica defines an inciting incident.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166344}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451673.639107, "message": "They have a different concept: the driver.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166354}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316450657.323669, "message": "In that regard, the inciting incident, the event that upsets the whole \"world\", is Francois being introduced to Pierre.  He ends up being more than he bargained for.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166227}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316450574.926805, "message": "I think, yes, sort of. The gentleman couldn't have made that decision had Pignon not spilled the artwork. I think that's the relevant point.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166220}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316450893.593075, "message": "Just like in Tootsie, Michael's desire to raise $8,000 to produce his own play because nobody will hire him, leads him to what appears to be the answer:  get a job as an \"actress\".  Of course, that's where all the complications come in.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166249}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451652.9539289, "message": "There is no inciting incident in Dramatica.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166350}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452597.185384, "message": "I would agree, the SS dominates the movie.  That's why, on the other board, I mentioned to Jim that the original goal in these types of movies, becomes almost obsolete.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166499}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451299.303427, "message": "can you see what? are you losing posts mike?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166300}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451747.4525859, "message": "Look at it this way: An inciting incident implies \"something goes awry to set off the story.\"\n\nBut in Dramatica, in a change MC at any rate, there is already something awry -- his problem element. So an inciting incident just isn't nuanced enough for us nerds anymore.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166367}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452395.4246049, "message": "Could it be that Pierre needing Pignon to perform for him is \"Pursue\" in some way or another?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166468}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452688.706198, "message": "To step outside of Dramatica for one more second... lots of \"Fun and Games\" in this movie.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166513}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451008.003515, "message": "Ugh. Can you see this?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166265}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451228.966614, "message": "I'm going to plow ahead.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166293}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452019.013561, "message": "ok, so Action driven, Optionlock - what was everyone's take on Outcome?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166410}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451283.098572, "message": "Sure, let's see where it goes.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166297}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451685.0925651, "message": "but usually when people talk about inciting incident they are referring to the first instance of the story driver", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166355}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452080.0942321, "message": "Depends on what we define the OS as, lol.  I don't know if we've really come to a conclusion and were still kicking it around.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166420}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452341.7604129, "message": "I'm not drifting. I just don't get it!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166462}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452515.253324, "message": "Yes, he wants an idiot.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166484}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452629.0820479, "message": "\"Consider\" is also the Protagonist trait. Can we use that somehow?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166505}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451887.6557951, "message": "That's where my last post the other day left off.  I picked back up here thinking ahead... my bad.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166391}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452282.7437861, "message": "Somewhere after that, we started drifting, it seems, back to finding the wife.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166455}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452741.0763719, "message": "So, at any rate, the movie ends in Failure, because the real idiot turns out to be Pierre. Or does it... because Pignon screws up right at the end, proving himself to be unflinchingly stupid.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166522}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451567.2052591, "message": "Yes, I'm losing posts and not getting your posts. I may relocate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166340}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451608.8934741, "message": "The gentleman cannot make his decision to share Pignon if Pignon doesn't spill the art first. In that small exchange, the driver is \"Action.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166345}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316454879.146569, "message": "Maybe this is a prejudice story. The heat of the night", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166854}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316453229.822247, "message": "I think Francois last action is sort of the denouement; it certainly doesn't exemplify any change on his part - it just re-iterates to the audience what we've already come to know.  What's important is Pierre's realization.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166575}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451640.984364, "message": "The movie also ends with a clear Action -- picking up the phone. If Pignon had merely decided to pick up the phone, no mistake would have been made.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166349}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452267.8288901, "message": "@MikeDerk This is what you said at the top of this thread\"  \n\n\"I've come to think that the OS is \"letting the idiot make a fool of himself.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166454}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452723.1969099, "message": "in terms of the OS?  Pierre re-considers what an idiot is.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166519}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451746.0729351, "message": "the thing that \"starts\" the story - most other gurus/paradigms always connect the first story driver to a blend of the protagonist/mc - tying it to a \"desire\" etc.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166365}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451772.5857029, "message": "Ok, lost my train of thought from where we left off... I had mentioned there being two inciting incidents... \n\nSo, yes - I agree.  Had I been following my train of thought from then, that would be where the 1st driver is.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166370}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451786.2442191, "message": "Where?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166371}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452100.879108, "message": "We're coming up on an uglyness. Outcome.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166422}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452479.237649, "message": "Absolutely, in my opinion.  He's initially has a goal of pursuing the ultimate idiot candidate for dinner, correct?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166476}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452564.5804231, "message": "Yes.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166493}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452903.6604619, "message": "Good question to ponder with the ending.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166548}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316451927.7455161, "message": "I'm good with that. Especially because in the middle of the movie, other actions seem to precipitate movement: calling the wrong woman, the car accident, even the tax audit of the lovemonster makes him sleep with the auditor's wife...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166400}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452107.981411, "message": "ah, ok - kick around", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166426}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452191.034133, "message": "To reiterate where we were the last time this came up: if the OS has to do with \"letting people look like idiots\" or whatever... who is the Protagonist Pursuing that?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166436}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452233.3269529, "message": "Pursuit seems to be mostly about locating the wife. However, my gut tells me that this is the SS Throughline.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166449}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452527.781522, "message": "He even tries to make an attempt to make it to the dinner, but can't because of his back. Then he says they'll go next week.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166487}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452631.018378, "message": "It's more or less the \"excuse\" to get the heart of the story, the real conflict, rolling.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166506}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452491.4836249, "message": "Pierre invites Pignon into his house. Let's call that \"pursue\"? But then what? How is an OS actively pursued? \n\nPerhaps the SS dominates the movie so thoroughly that the OS is demoted for the second half.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166479}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316453697.675215, "message": "The last bit where he calls him an idiot... I can see that; it's just... awkward.  It's funny though, because it's demonstrative of him being an idiot, really, for the same reasons Francois is.  Once one becomes self-aware of their behavior and continue to do act certain ways, which Pierre demonstrates, it more or less puts them in that category of never being able to learn.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166667}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316453867.1072431, "message": "We often state goals with action terminology which leads us into the action class. 'to find', 'to get'.  How about the goal 'to understand what an idiot is.'  still action, 'ha' or \"to conceive an idea of who the biggest idiot is.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166695}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316452778.6754949, "message": "He doesn't spend the movie re-considering. Just the very end of the movie, after his change. So does that count as \"re-consider\"? I wouldn't think so.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166528}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316455136.9458289, "message": "Yes it is.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166878}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316453976.1561151, "message": "I just caught up so I am going to throw a monkey wrench in.  It is clear to me that Francois is manipulating the situation and drops the picture of his matchstick model on purpose.  He has decided to drop it hoping to strike up a conversation so he can talk about his passion.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166711}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316453040.0980511, "message": "If it's simply anything regarding defining an idiot or who's the idiot, I'd think it would be success, actually.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166558}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316454504.190789, "message": "I've dropped posts again... ugh.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166801}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316454527.553086, "message": "For the OS, I usually try to stick with it as what is everyone concerned with.  Otherwise, getting too particular ends up removing characters from it when it should encompass more or less everyone - or at least that's how I read into it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166806}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316455124.051651, "message": "sorry.  it's not fare to jump in like that, throwing wrenches in.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166876}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316453242.073616, "message": "But they don't set out to do that, exactly. It's more like \"we observe these guys and let them be idiots.\" Then Pierre realizes that he's been the idiot for doubting this guy. The goal of making fun of Pignon fails.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166578}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316453400.3549211, "message": "What emotional reaction do you have to the end of the movie?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166615}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316454575.1843259, "message": "It's the same list for people who have Concerns.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166814}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316454852.5363691, "message": "Is \"Hole in the Heart\" a stop character or a start character?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166851}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316454717.81849, "message": "I would agree with that, it makes sense, yes.  I haven't actually thought that far ahead, but from here, I don't see why it wouldn't work.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166831}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316455366.2197261, "message": "So did @jimhull get a chance to watch it again this weekend, and if so, any thoughts on the OS?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166910}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316454406.3704619, "message": "along the do-er be-er line.  If a person were a quadriplegic could he not still be a do-er? I think I heard Chris say once that you classify a character as a do-er or a be-er based on their natural inclinations not just within the story.  So could Pierre be a do-er who is out of his element do to his injured back?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166790}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316454526.2631121, "message": "I skipped ahead in my analysis a bit. So, I'm cheating and being risky. Nevertheless, do you all see the Goal as: \nThe Future \nObtaining \nChanging One's Nature \nInnermost Desires?\n", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166805}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316454541.332489, "message": "If this turns out to be a bad idea, we I can retract the question.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166808}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316454807.847605, "message": "My read has always been that they are trying to Obtain the wife. Probably in the SS.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166842}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316454896.9363461, "message": "Start.  Chip on the shoulder is stop.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166856}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316454948.625313, "message": "Okay. I'm so frustrated with the OS that I'm skipping around. If anyone has OS thoughts, I'll respond, though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166862}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316455698.4834981, "message": "I've got to head for a bit.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166935}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316455782.0016291, "message": "no sry - the earliest i can is tomorrow night, from what i remember the os was about \"the dinner game\". Personally i think it would be worth it to keep discussing the OS and the Goal before going too much further - figuring out what it actually is before going too far into the thematics (structure)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2166938}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316457845.9705801, "message": "Maybe it's just safe to say the OS is incomplete/broken - or, justify the dinner game itself as what concerns everyone because its goal, to find an idiot, impacts everyone in the story, yet remains more or less what Pierre pursues in the OS.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167115}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316459607.6321261, "message": "that sounds very familiar - as i recall it was played down, i will watch it as soon as i can to hopefully help out", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167307}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316459838.8759141, "message": "Yeah, really it's limited to the first few minutes of the story and sprinkled a bit, not rearing its head again until Francois learns about it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167327}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316463999.933234, "message": "I'll check back in on Wednesday.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167795}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316463824.520545, "message": "Wow, I've missed a lot.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167765}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316464130.8525, "message": "To \"find\" the idiot.  Then the story would be over right away.  A \"fight\" as to who is the biggest idiot...maybe.  The \"Action\" centered goal is so American.  It is a GAME.  A comedy of errors.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167817}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316464265.8833511, "message": "I'm caught up, but Wednesday sounds good (assuming Jim finds the chance to watch).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167841}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316464935.8658631, "message": "the answer is resolved when Pierre says they will still go to dinner the following week, but he will be Francois guest instead - implying he's obviously the bigger idiot.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167959}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316464400.7079091, "message": "to some degree, anyway.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167864}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316464546.5695021, "message": "@JBarker  so \"to contemplate what is an idiot\" Isn't that the game. perception.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167894}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316464387.474489, "message": "@sam_potter right, but... as the story goes, \"idiot\" ends up being a matter of perception, no?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167862}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316464441.4466159, "message": "I probably meant comedy of manners.  I better read up on my theory and come back on wednesday.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167871}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316464525.080965, "message": "Who is saying \"find the idiot\"?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167890}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316464580.847409, "message": "@MikeDerk I read it up about 10 entries.  That that was the purpose of the game.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167904}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316464752.6052599, "message": "Oh. Somehow I missed that. Back on Wednesday.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167933}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316464784.2853661, "message": "@sam_potter Yes, that's my original thought.  These guys are out to find who they \"think\" is the biggest idiot and bring them to dinner.  The guy on the train calls Pierre because he thinks he's found one in Francois.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2167939}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316534364.0026829, "message": "The word \"about\" makes a big difference to me. It does not imply concern or story goal. If I interpret this correctly than I argue that the story is about discovering or figuring out who the biggest idiot is. And typical of a French movie it is an unending story or does not cleanly resolve.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2174793}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316534029.6421521, "message": "Listening to 'Collateral' DUG podcast today. Chris asks at the beginning, \"Anybody want to identify what is the overall story about? What's going on?\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2174750}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316540031.1531191, "message": "Over the course of the story, is there a character who's *not* an idiot/considered an idiot at one point or another?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2175280}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316540742.8343821, "message": "No. We are all idiots. Who the biggest idiot is always shifting.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2175325}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316544630.236809, "message": "Yeah, even Marlene (?) couldn't figure out that she was the \"nut\" they were all talking about. But I agree--I'm leaning more toward \"who is the bigger idiot\" as well.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2175864}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316542470.6974859, "message": "I agree.  The goal, to me, appears to be to identify the biggest idiot to bring to dinner.  My very first response was who is the idiot?  But bigger is more accurate because it's subjective.  Everybody in the movie thinks another to be an idiot at some point - even Francois with the guy who took his wife (causing Pierre to pause - you mean there could be a BIGGER idiot?).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2175520}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316560906.327666, "message": "Then he takes Pierre to bed, and runs into the wife in the hallway, I think.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177551}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316557591.1988871, "message": "@sam_potter There is a big difference between asking what the movie is about and asking what the OS Goal is.\n\nThe OS Goal requires a protagonist going after it. \n\n @JBarker That goal cannot be \"to identify the biggest idiot to bring to dinner\". Then the movie is over before it begins. I think in the movie they even talk about voting after the dinner to see who won.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177263}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316560590.8664839, "message": "Now that it's been a week or two since I've seen it, I can't remember: what is it exactly that prevents him from attending the dinner?  Is it his physical condition or does he receive the message?  \n\nBecause at some point, he tells Francois, never mind, I'll take you next week - which to me means IF the OS goal is bringing an idiot, it's still a valid goal.  His going to bed is, I would think, more an outcome of his arrogance (go away, I don't need your help) and more associated with the SS.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177521}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316561233.6979671, "message": "She only calls once, right? I think that's early. Pignon comes, and when he is leaving (\"sorry, next week\") the call comes. Pignon offers to help, and stays.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177584}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316561297.1442289, "message": "I wish I could do the same.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177592}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316558969.2090311, "message": "Simple semantic fix: bring the biggest idiot to dinner.  Pierre plans to take him immediately, makes an attempt, then delays the goal for the following week because of his back and circumstances with Christine.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177372}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316559042.6721539, "message": "Then the movie is a failure halfway through, when he decides to go to bed instead of go to the dinner. An odd place to put a climax.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177378}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316560041.609926, "message": "Let's say (and I think this is supported by the movie, but can't remember) that the elites decide on who the biggest idiot is at the end of dinner.\n\nPierre clearly thinks he's got a winner, which is why he decides to go despite his injury and pain.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177476}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316560725.748091, "message": "Then I think he falls and cannot go, again.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177536}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316560320.1150031, "message": "It gets wrapped up when Pierre decides \"I am the biggest idiot.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177500}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316560857.662971, "message": "And I can't remember specifically what happens next - does he receive the message, or doesn't he have Francois call Christine, but he accidentally dials the mistress instead, having her come over in mistake?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177544}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316561243.9994991, "message": "I'm just trying to narrow down when the decision is made to change the pursuit from attending the dinner to locating Christine.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177586}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316561364.7954121, "message": "Yes, it's not LeBlanc it's the tax guy.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177605}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316561335.43571, "message": "Does someone mention the other guy with the love nest? Maybe LeBlanc?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177602}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316560666.7972939, "message": "His physical condition prevents him from going initially, and I believe he is still willing to go after he learns that his wife has left him. (He believes she's going to come back, after all.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177529}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316560858.2361219, "message": "Yes.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177545}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316560749.1252191, "message": "Right, which is another thing pointing to his arrogance.  If I remember correctly, he makes an attempt to get up and head for the door, but is either physically.... YES!  He falls flat on his back and Francois lands right on top of him.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177538}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316561280.358674, "message": "Ok, hopefully Jim is watching tonight to get a fresh pair of eyes on it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177589}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316560889.274375, "message": "I think he has Pignon call the doctor, but he dials the mistress.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177550}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316561240.9952469, "message": "I have to run.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177585}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316561125.6292701, "message": "That would be right after Pierre realizes he's called the mistress and tells him to send her away.  Francois mistakes Christine for Marlene... does Christine's message come after this (as a result?).  Or was that before - she simply says she may not come home that night, or again... I think Pierre receives that message before - I just can't remember the initial reaction to the message.  Perhaps to do nothing about it and go to the dinner then the fall happens.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177571}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316561417.317987, "message": "Wait, LeBlanc does, I think.  That's how Cheval gets pulled in, via Francois.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177611}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316561727.2257371, "message": "Going over my notes.  When LeBlanc shows up, he says Christine called him and said she's torn and may head to Meneaux's place.  Apparently, he's been wooing her in his love nest.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177644}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316561372.522125, "message": "Cheval.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177608}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316561370.0765049, "message": "auditor", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2177607}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316572035.9265461, "message": "What I see when I watch is a jerk getting hoisted on his own pitard.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2178601}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316570467.8366439, "message": "How pointed is that?  ;o)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2178389}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316570441.220984, "message": "\"The Dinner Game\" is about arriving at the idea of who is an idiot.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2178386}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316572090.6908121, "message": "@MikeDerk Wait! I have to look up pitard.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2178604}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316572057.097775, "message": "@MikeDerk So are you agreeing that the first question should be \" identify what the overall story is about? What's going on?\" or do you think the first question should be \"What is the overall story goal?\"   I must admit that I am having a hard time stating what the movie is about without thinking about throughlines.  It seems our first inclination is to make these statements using action class terms.  To obtain. To find. To get. To understand. To learn. to achieve.  My agenda is to think outside that box and to keep open to the idea that the movie may not resolve", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2178602}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316571157.3659971, "message": "So, what I am trying to do is state what is going on in this movie without going into throughlines.  What is going on is \"idiots are being identified all the way through.\" or \"as the story progresses characters arrive at a new and/or shifting idea as to who is the bigger idiot.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2178483}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316572230.4447141, "message": "Very good.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2178614}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316583966.0192239, "message": "@sam_potter i think you're right to try and identify the throughlines without using the different classes. There can be a tendency (and I'm guilty of this too) to \"jump ahead\" in the storyforming analysis process -- kind of the too-much-knowledge-can-be-a-bad-thing concept. I think determining where the source of problems or inequities in the story is a better approach then \"What the overall story is about?\" because sometimes you can get caught up in what the message of the story is, rather than pulling out structural items that we can later identify within the model.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2179957}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316584159.4865539, "message": "and i finally watched it again...i know @MikeDerk had issues with the OS and the idea that after his wife goes missing, the concept of the dinner game gets dropped (or at one time he did, he may have changed his mind since!). But it seems to me like that all the problems in the story revolve around the effort to bring someone to the dinner up to and including that final phone call.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2179981}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316586964.248358, "message": "@jimhull I came to decide on Action today too, but for a reverso reason. Almost everything Pignon does to find the wife is pretending to be something he's not. Even when he just has to cheer for the other team.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2180255}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316586897.9122739, "message": "@sam_potter I think talking about the movie in very general terms is the first step. I have only been focusing on the goal lately for two reasons.\n1. To see if it's success or failure\n2. To see it it could help us pin down the OS Throughline (sans domain), since that was so vague to us still", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2180248}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316587099.9683299, "message": "This movie seems to be much easier to think of in non-dramatica ways. So much so that I can see why other theories have been born.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2180270}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316586856.011775, "message": "and most definitely Action - running into Pignon on the train, back breaking, discovery that Pignon sent wife away, hospital accident, final blunder by Pignon", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2180244}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316586813.2165539, "message": "I certainly think that the problems all come from the dinner and the effort to bring someone to the dinner -- it's what gets Pignon into the house, and the wife to leave in disgust.\n\nIt's just that after that point, I fail to see a Protagonist emerge who continues to pursue the dinner game.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2180240}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316586964.7021101, "message": "i would agree that its downplayed", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2180256}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316605053.938561, "message": "I was mentioning to Jim last week on the other board the dilemma here, especially with farces.  That primary story goal almost always falls completely off the face of the planet.  In Tootsie, Michael wants to raise $8,000 so he can star and produce Jeff's play.  But he needs a job to do it.  Acquiring the job is what starts all the complications. \n\nWhile the goal is never completely tossed (Michael continues to work), it just becomes more or less inactive because it's marked for the future.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2181353}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316605168.6083009, "message": "In Some Like it Hot, the characters are trying to avoid the mob.  Once they dress up as ladies and board the train, that gets them into all sorts of new complications.  And like Michael, they're \"trapped\" in there predicaments.  They don't feel like they're actively avoiding the goal, but because they're still dressed up, they technically are.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2181358}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316612411.3236511, "message": "Right. I believe this is a matter of emphasis. Authors can choose what parts of the storyform they wish to spend the most time exploring, while downplaying others. The Goal of this story becomes less important as the story progresses, yet it is still there in those closing moments. Even so, the actual problems that occur because of that goal (the OS throughline) are very much present from start to finish. In other words, the Class and Problem levels of the OS are more of interest to the Author rather than the Type level.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2181730}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [{"date_created": 1316622782.5481551, "user_id": 7645}], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316622708.576931, "message": "I was thinking about relating this to something Chris had said here a few months back, how most people look at using the software and obtaining the report it spits out as being the goal, but overlooking the entire process as being something other than the actual outcome (the process forces one to define their story, not necessarily the outcome itself).\n\nIn that regard, I feel like while this may be frustrating on some levels, it's actually quite rewarding in that prior context: I'm learning more by applying, comparing and contrasting ideas, than necessarily finding \"the\" answer.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2182727}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316622812.269897, "message": "Yes!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2182731}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316623751.1583619, "message": "I got a star!  I got a star!  lol.  It's like if I had a goal of obtaining a masters degree or PhD.  The process to obtain those is going to take a lot of time with a lot of hurdles to overcome.  \n\nThere may be times when in the midst of it all, I actually forget that's actually what I'm pursuing (believe me, it happened a lot with my previous job: we were so far removed in an office environment from the activity of building a nuclear repository, that it was easy to forget that's the reason why we were all there.  The day to day activities were so far removed from the whole in the ground out in the desert... but yet that's what we were ALL working toward).  \n\nAnyway, at the end, the masters or PhD diploma/degree ends up being a nice piece of paper to hang on the wall as a symbol of the process one had to endure.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2182802}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316640059.618741, "message": "@JBarker Are you saying that we are all learning a lesson in emphasis?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2183510}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316643477.9728811, "message": "Where does farce land in the Dramatica Genre chart? Or does it have multiple possibilities.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2183890}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316644912.2386651, "message": "@MikeDerk No, not necessarily.  I can't speak for anyone else - I just saw a correlation between the struggle to find \"the\" particular answer vs. the process of learning itself and it reminded me of what Chris had said previously.  For me, personally, the exercise here isn't about finding the storyform so much as it is learning the process - keep in mind, I'm a storyform virgin.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2184124}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316644951.549619, "message": "Is there a genre chart somewhere?  Link?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2184129}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316646112.923358, "message": "It's towards the end of the book.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2184253}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316650900.5072, "message": "Perhaps I have a different version as I didn't find it.  I've got the 4th edition, 2001 pdf version I downloaded from the dramatica site.  I probably should be looking at the actual book (the 10th anniversary edition), correct?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2184829}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316654041.7348471, "message": "Hardcopy still has it's perks.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2185325}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316660809.419162, "message": "The Elements of Structure; GENRE (page 153 Special 10th Anniversary Edition - paperback) the chart is on page 158 (paperback)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2185994}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316661038.294487, "message": "I guess farce covers a wide range of comedy types.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2186016}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316661895.108542, "message": "For anyone who has the Kindle edition, it's around the 33% mark. I wish the Kindle app gave page numbers...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2186093}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316662292.7254381, "message": "Yes, farce is the broadest of broad comedies.  They typically center on mistaken identities, disguises, stereotypes, etc. (La Cage Aux Follies), but use everything including the kitchen sink - nothing is off limits.  They also tend to be fairly absurd.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2186124}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316662436.2507651, "message": "I'll probably grab the kindle edition - $4.99 is hard to beat; just wish it were on iBooks instead (the pages look goofy on the iPhone going from portrait to landscape).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2186133}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316666092.0015571, "message": "Is the source of the OS (the activity of setting up the dinner game) in the same throughline as looking for the wife (activity of looking)?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2186503}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316666010.3004351, "message": "Getting back to the storyforming....", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2186484}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316668619.6669061, "message": "I would think so. Don't forget that the Goal is the final last step - the OS still has all the Requirements and the Prerequisites and Preconditions attached to those Requirements.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2186698}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316671772.6182771, "message": "So, I would now put my throughlines as this:\n1. Spending the evening with an idiot, and letting them work their magic (OS Activity)\n2. Helper/Helpee struggling with \"What's the best way to help?\"\n3. Being a jerk\n4. Being out of your league, or something like that (IC Situation)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2186962}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316672086.161387, "message": "You read my mind. I think Pierre is Situation.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2187002}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316672752.3240299, "message": "But what is Pierre's personal problem? What is it that would go with him into any story?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2187073}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316672035.4744439, "message": "Nah, I really want to say that Pierre is in the situation (injured/stuck in his house), and that Pignon has trouble controlling his impulses.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2186994}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316672991.1538019, "message": "1. OS (Manipulation) Everyone coming up with an idea about who is the jerk or bigger jerk.\n2.Helper/Helpee getting Helpee's wife back.\n3. Arrogant Jerk prejudice about people he considered below him or odiots.\n4. Francois stuck alone.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2187086}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316672921.7697289, "message": "\"The best way to help\" feels more like OS because it isn't so much about their relationship as it is about causing the major objective problem (problem that everyone has to deal with)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2187080}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316672892.0549531, "message": "And then, as far as #2 goes, I feel if anything, the Relationship Throughline is not fully explored in this film. One reason why it feels so incredibly short. The last shot where Pignon is on the phone -- that's RS territory -- and it really doesn't happen until that shot. To me it feels forced because it wasn't properly developed to that point. It's the right beat, it just missed the proceeding 3 beats.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2187077}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316673137.1852331, "message": "1.(revised) OS (Manipulation) Everyone coming up with an idea about who is the idiot or bigger idiot.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2187098}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316676995.427577, "message": "@jimhull He's an arrogant guy who treats people as playthings. That's his personal problem.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2187374}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316676955.6902821, "message": "@sam_potter Jim is arguing that the OS is Activity because all of the problems of the movie begin with the hunt for an idiot (activity) crossing paths with Pignon spilling his art on purpose (another activity).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2187369}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316691848.182946, "message": "I saw the SS as slightly different, it being the \"battle\" over how to deal with your wife walking out which is demonstrative of Pierre's problem (of being an arrogant jerk).  Francois has been there, done that - his experience as such being his motivator.  \n\nHe mentions several times throughout about his own personal personal experiences and uses those as justifications, but Pierre, with his arrogance, can't or refuses to relate because Francois is beneath him: he's an idiot.  \n\nPierre doesn't really pursue Christine at first - it takes both LeBlanc and Francois persuading him to.  I wish I had this to watch again because I'm not sure at what point, if any (perhaps when he realizes Christine has been physically hurt?), that he REALLY feels invested in pursuing it... Francois phone call finally providing that epiphany for him which allows him to finally relate and have empathy.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2188209}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316694617.077457, "message": "I can definitely see the SS in manipulation. They both do a lot of manipulating.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2188416}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316695132.6394229, "message": "Could Pierre's arrogance be a fixed attitude problem and Francois is a warning \"you will be stuck alone like me if you do not change.\"?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2188458}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316698618.1382129, "message": "That sounds good, and actually @JBarker's explanation of their \"battle\" makes me reconsider my previous assertion about the weak RS. That is their argument.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2188745}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316704710.011735, "message": "@sam_potter I like this because those matchstick models symbolize his loneliness.  Without knowing Francois personal history, one obviously has a different perception of them.  In Pierre's case, because of his own fixed attitude problem, his perception is hey, what kind of person spends their time building these things: an idiot.   \n\nBut Francois keeps feeding us (and Pierre) bits and pieces of his own personal backstory, until he pulls the rug out from underneath us (and Pierre) by justifying his behavior - both by making the models and by wanting to help Pierre - giving us (and Pierre) a different perception.  \n\nIn Pierre's case, he only sees a bit of the picture - one piece of a puzzle, if you will - and bases his opinion on that without being able to see the larger picture.  Everything Francois subsequently does only justifies and fortifies his beliefs/perceptions.  \n\nAnd Pierre himself can't see Francois's perspective because he believes him to be an idiot.  Once he hears Francois's perspective communicated to a third party, hearing the motivation, the justifications... that's when he realizes Francois is, in his own way, trying to help him to avoid being someone stuck alone in his home, becoming who fills their idle, lonely time with things or hobbies others may perceive as being stupid.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2189256}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316704811.1422379, "message": "@jimhull just for clarification, are you using RS as... relationship story?  I don't think I've seen \"RS\" before so I just want to make sure I'm on the same page :).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2189270}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316709524.5573771, "message": "We do seem to keep coming around to Pierre being a Be-er.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2189841}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316710885.89762, "message": "Back to storyforming -- I believe we left off on Outcome, or at least, got sidetracked as we decided upon the OS. If the OS does concern itself with The Dinner Game, and perhaps finding the best idiot to bring to it - would you say it ended in Failure or Success?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2189933}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316713071.763859, "message": "As far as finding the best/biggest idiot, I say Success.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2190127}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316710735.992697, "message": "yes - i'm pretty sure Main vs. Impact Throughline is converting to Relationship Story Throughline, abbreviated RS -- which I think is great. I always despised main vs. impact. Personally I think Subjective Story is the best, but I can understand where that can confusing as the Main and Impact Characters are referred to as subjective characters.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2189924}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316712644.4099219, "message": "Success - Pierre says they'll still go, but he will be Francois idiot instead... assuming they still go (it's benchmarked for the future so it's inconclusive, really, unless we simply go by their \"changed\" intent).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2190079}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316713715.6938901, "message": "I think it ends in failure. I think the goal is to bring someone to laugh at, and by admitting he (pierre) is the bigger idiot, he has failed.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2190179}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316713609.255733, "message": "I would like to leave this unanswered because I think the ending is open ended. Who is the biggest idiot keeps flip flopping... Unless we state the goal under gathering information or even understanding.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2190163}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316714792.1185441, "message": "@MikeDerk that's a good point. He can't win the dinner game from that perspective.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2190352}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316715396.9364951, "message": "I'm going to have to watch this movie again. I don't have time!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2190437}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316715617.1933751, "message": "You do have a point there. I need to quit posting because I'm forgetting too much.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2190466}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316718625.672466, "message": "I would say he found the biggest idiot (himself) but then lost it when Pignon picks up the phone at the end and spoils everything. If Pignon hadn't picked up the phone and revealed that he wasn't in a phone booth - then that would have been a Success. The film would have ended in Triumph. Instead the problem still exists (or persists).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2190859}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316747260.547415, "message": "The Problem still persists. @jimhull  Well played.  That satisfies my \"unresolved\" feeling I was looking for.  The Overall story ends in Failure because the problem of deciding who is or finding the biggest idiot is unresolved.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2194069}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316786783.124974, "message": "@jimhull I have a question about benchmarks? When it is appropriate..", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2196791}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316795166.440804, "message": "It's always appropriate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2197719}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316796142.098917, "message": "yes go ahead - also, is everyone ok with Failure? If so, what about Judgment?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2197799}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316803548.7551639, "message": "Judgement 'good'", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2198483}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316803520.4726269, "message": "I feel good at the end. Pierre has learned something about himself and will either stop being a jerk or start treating others with understanding.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2198481}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316804068.6641381, "message": "Yes, sounds 'good'.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2198531}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316808559.234093, "message": "Logically it seems like it should be \"bad\" but I feel like it's \"good\" too.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2198922}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316808844.368325, "message": "logically because he feels bad about what he has done?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2198942}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316811111.8742771, "message": "Because he's lost his wife and he's going to get audited.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2199135}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316811134.502136, "message": "But I guess, \"know thyself\" trumps that.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2199138}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316812591.247936, "message": "Wow, Convore really doesn't like me today. I was wondering about the wife, too. Forgot about the auditing though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2199233}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316813739.781306, "message": "I think it can be seen too as -- was his change a good thing or a bad thing? The Author's Judgment of the MC's final Resolve", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2199367}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316813369.025928, "message": "He does gain back an old friend, too. That's a plus in some places.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2199346}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316814669.8254881, "message": "In that case I would say yes, it's Good.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2199443}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316814703.707617, "message": "I would think any new self-awareness would have to be interpreted as good, particularly when it's revealed to be the source of negative actions/outcomes.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2199446}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316815177.011914, "message": "Godfather", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2199479}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316815394.6333971, "message": "Election would be another good one - Main Characters with new found self-awareness that was shown not to be such a good thing.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2199493}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316833163.2552979, "message": "That's not a movie title, in case any of you were wondering.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201148}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316833146.136596, "message": "My life, too.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201144}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316848244.2051129, "message": "nite. I'm too tired to think straight.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2202044}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316839778.4523139, "message": "lol", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201619}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316839826.9125221, "message": "ok - so we have - Change, Linear, Action, Optionlock, Failure, Good -- how's about some ideas on domains for the Four Throughlines", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201622}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316840853.0518301, "message": "Psychology for RS, and therefore Activity for OS.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201671}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316842189.998419, "message": "I like @JBarker's explanation of the \"battle\" above - a clash over how to deal with your wife  walking out (differing ways of thinking)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201733}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316842544.7576871, "message": "what about MC and IC?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201755}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316841081.634644, "message": "Can you give examples as to why? (Not saying you're wrong here...)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201687}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316841654.6444261, "message": "Looking for an idiot, throwing a dinner party, selecting the right red tie -- all active stuff for the OS (at the beginning to kick it off).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201712}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316842440.07762, "message": "RS... I said somewhere up there that they both did their fair share of manipulating the other, but yeah, they think differently--basically what you just said, Jim.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201743}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316843609.0619881, "message": "Duh.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201805}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316841708.753262, "message": "RS... I don't know. I was going to say a while ago that Pignon and Pierre's plans mostly call on him to be someone he's not: the belgian producer, a fan of the other team.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201716}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316843208.392653, "message": "You mean MC is an arrogant jerk?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201787}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316843259.6372111, "message": "Before Dram, I would have said Pignon was the MC hands down. I think that's what's screwing me up.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201791}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316844015.391238, "message": "Good to know... that's how I've always done it with my own MCs...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201825}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316843455.7738919, "message": "There are a couple of times where people call him out on being an a--hole.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201797}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316843564.477669, "message": "Approach?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201801}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316843599.7658429, "message": "vs. Attitude?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201802}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316843602.034678, "message": "As in, without thinking of Do-er or Be-er...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201803}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316843779.0133891, "message": "MC Approach - you can do it that way - fully legitimate -- the charisma example for him is great. He does seem to have a smarmy way of getting what he wants.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201812}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316842853.61324, "message": "I'm still mentally debating Do-er vs Be-er, and that's affecting my thought process for the other two throughlines.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201773}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316842993.3353591, "message": "Pignon... I don't know. Would it be a situation of having been walked out on?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201780}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316843839.3374979, "message": "I talked to Chris about another story, and his advice was \"figure out if they're a do-er or be-er, and that will solve your domain issue.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201817}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316842959.7253089, "message": "We always say for IC that he's an arrogant jerk. He considers his friend's father for the dinner. He doesn't believe his wife has left him. He stole his friend's wife and married her.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201778}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316843453.5326459, "message": "Here's something I'm curious about: Would stealing LeBlanc's wife be considered Do-er or a Be-er? Giving consideration to the charisma thing. I would have said that's Do-er until I read that. He goes out and takes what he wants.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201796}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316843643.943429, "message": "I don't know if we can say it taking someone's wife is doer or beer because we didn't see it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201809}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316843227.0950229, "message": "Yes. Pierre.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201788}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316843492.32494, "message": "I want to do this without Approach, but it's kind of ingrained.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201799}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316843606.8145051, "message": "Ah.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201804}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316843989.6554821, "message": "Approach is a temperament thing and not a story-specific thing, right?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201823}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316844075.115684, "message": "I think that most parts of the MC and IC throughline come with them into the story -- they aren't initiated by the inciting incident, if that's what you mean.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201829}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316844129.8856671, "message": "Isn't it both?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201831}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316844267.874969, "message": "Both what?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201836}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316844359.9791529, "message": "I was referring specifically to the steadfast character getting jarred by the inciting incident -- that isn't \"in bloom\" prior to the story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201841}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316845295.7701499, "message": "What happened?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201887}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316845985.6230929, "message": "It's funny, because \"finding peace\" could also describe a Be-er. \n\nNevertheless, I agree with you.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201924}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316845283.2936809, "message": "woah weird - convore is such a piece", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201886}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316845316.4854641, "message": "my isn't it both came on the heels of bee's question about approach as temperament or story-specific", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201888}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316845874.4042349, "message": "I think Be-er - mainly because his problem is that he is an a--hole and is called out on it several times. Its that idea where other characters actually call out the MC's throughline to them by saying \"You know what your problem is? You're a jerk.\" And I like Pignon in Situation because he is a huge loser and has every reason to be more of an a--hole then Pierre yet he seems to have found piece with the hand he has been dealt.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201920}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316845466.4792321, "message": "What's your take on approach, Jim?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201896}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316845486.3807819, "message": "in this film or in general?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201900}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316845628.256536, "message": "This film.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201909}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316847389.3473959, "message": "So, I'm looking at the repercussions of picking Obtaining.\n\nThat gives us \"Future\" for Pignon and Subconscious for Pierre.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201995}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316846059.1107631, "message": "I'm pretty sure @JBarker will do the same, so we could move on to Concerns if you want to...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201926}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316846080.8125091, "message": "Would love to.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201927}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316846393.543237, "message": "The OS would seem to be Obtaining if it's about getting an idiot to a dinner, or Understanding if it's about who is the bigger idiot.\n\nAlthough, Pierre isn't actually concerned with finding out who is the bigger idiot -- he learns it anyway, though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201940}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316847272.5999401, "message": "Sure. Just let me get my popcorn on the stove.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201989}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316847138.429728, "message": "Hello?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201975}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316847224.8498039, "message": "hi", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201983}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316847239.037832, "message": "Dino ate my message.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201986}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316847241.6202409, "message": "Would you like to play a game?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201987}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316847437.1526091, "message": "Subconscious seems right. I feel like he's got kind of knee jerk reacting to lesser people, he just feels better than them.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201996}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316847682.527225, "message": "yeah - its interesting but maybe the Concerns aren't a big emphasis here. Kind of like the same line of thinking where the Goal isn't as important as the actual elements beneath for comedy and so on. They don", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2202009}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316847491.6969049, "message": "Future for Pignon... He seems to have found a way to hold it together (so he's not having problems with teh present) and wants a better future. Seems weakly developed though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2201999}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316848180.4648221, "message": ":) yes", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2202036}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316848210.003547, "message": "Okay. Later. Have a good weekend.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2202041}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316847700.332485, "message": "too bad I can't edit - argh! - They don't seem very concerned with the Concerns har har", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2202010}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316847801.5756221, "message": "No. The thing is, I want to jump all the way to the Problem because that seemed so obvious to me. It's the engine of the whole movie.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2202018}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316848119.526181, "message": "yes totally agree its almost too one-note for my tastes", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2202034}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316848199.253195, "message": "But, I think that's generally the structure of a farce, although I would have to go read some to back that up.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2202039}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316848231.759932, "message": "i'd be interested in hearing that (about farce)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2202043}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316848162.2435861, "message": "He was smart to keep it short.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2202035}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316848190.5012851, "message": "me go sleep now", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2202038}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316864156.303283, "message": "I like future for Pignon, but I don't see the emphasis on himself necessarily; he's concerned about Pierre's future.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2202602}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316881121.7608111, "message": "Pierre concern of Contemplation. \"When one has all the facts, knows all the impact - both positive and negative; when one is fully aware of detrimental consequences and still decides on the poor course of action, there is something wrong with the way one arrives at conclusions.  This is the subject of stories focusing on Contemplation.  The key here is not to redefine who a character is, but to lead him to relearn how to weigh an issue so that his conclusions are less destructive to himself and/or others.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2203955}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316880926.7314081, "message": "I really felt the concerns were in the lower right quadrant.  \"Gathering Information\", \"Contemplation\", \"Conceiving an Idea\", \"The Present\".  The game is a weekly game and it seemed that Overall Story was more about gathering information about the idiots.  I need to meet him and evaluate whether he is good enough to win for me.  Calling the boomerang man to check in and see if he is still as big an idiot as hoped and is he planning on coming to the dinner.  The idiot at the bar with his friends, \"Why did he invite you?\" Pierre, \"What about your father?\" Pierre has to have Francois over first to see for himself if he is a good enough idiot.  Pierre evaluates Francois when he listens to his phone message.  Why didn't he just have Francois go straight to the dinner?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2203940}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316881367.804168, "message": "This seemed to describe Pierre's concern and need to me.  His girlfriend will leave him but he goes forward with the game anyway.  He is arrogant and loves to play the game finding idiots.  It seems to be the high lite of his week. In the end he relearns how evaluate people and himself.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2203973}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316881998.8841519, "message": "The Relationship Story: Conceiving an idea-- Their goal is to get the wife back (girlfriend or wife?) This may be the weak link in this argument.  Although Pierre's arrogance and back make him slow to conceive that he needs to get his wife back it does happen at least half way through.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2204028}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316882255.0707901, "message": "Francois concern of The Present.  It seems to me that he is in the Present so much that it makes him an idiot.  He gets so caught up in his argument with Chevel over football that he forgets why he called and hangs up.  When he calls Marl\u00e8ne Sasseur, the mistress, forgets himself and gives out way too much information.  At the end he forgets the lie he just told and answers the phone.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2204049}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316882680.1452579, "message": "but several posts kept stating \"to find\" the idiot (or biggest idiot) and I knew we were heading toward \"OBTAIN\" so that is when I started thinking about Benchmarks.  Often when a story doesn't quite sing to me in the quadrant I thought it should I am very satisfied when the Benchmark in that quad. @MikeDerk Didn't you write early on in this discussion not to state what the story is about in terms of the authors intent(or what he/she wants the audience to get from it)?  Please correct me. @jimhull this is my question about benchmark.  Do benchmarks reflect authors intent more than story goal?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2204097}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316883012.623003, "message": "So I submit this OS concern = Obtain measured in terms of Gathering Information; MC concern=Innermost Desires measured in terms of Contemplation; RS concern=Changing Ones Nature measured in terms of Conceiving an Idea, and IC concern=Future measured in terms of the Present.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2204123}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316886032.15396, "message": "I think it all reflects Author's Intent (it being the storyform), so I don't think there is one appreciation that speaks of it more than the others. I think Benchmarks are more of a gauge to measure the level of Concern in each of the Throughlines. The key for Concerns is that they are explored in every Act, not just one. That's the reason for giving plenty of examples because sometimes you can only think of one - which usually means you're identifying a Signpost, not a Concern.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2204411}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316888157.5545881, "message": "I'm going to have to sleep on this. Again.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2204615}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316901475.262605, "message": "@MikeDerk I didn't fully form that thought. Can a protagonist actively pursue a goal of which he is not conscious? Eg. To understand who is the bigger idiot  and he figures out he is the bigger idiot.  He was not consciously trying to understand. Consciously he just wanted to win the contest. (does that make sense?)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2205791}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316906096.8661549, "message": "The question makes sense, but I think in this case that understanding has to do with the recognition of where his problem lies. I'm not sure Understanding was a goal of Concern to everyone throughout.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2206240}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316969660.0646279, "message": "No, Understanding was not a goal of Concern to everyone throughout but maybe gathering information is.  Could it be Gathering Information?  Everyone has found an idiot at the beginning so throughout the story they are gathering information as to who is the biggest idiot.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2210143}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316976090.3600221, "message": "But Obtaining seems to be more prevalent.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2210694}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316977116.098592, "message": "I'll say this. I jumped ahead and put in the Problem I believe is the problem, and neither of those things is true.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2210767}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316977360.5015199, "message": "( I have one that works if the issue is self interest)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2210789}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316977404.1349609, "message": "@Bee I must have missed something", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2210792}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316975324.0549381, "message": "I would say, \"Does he actively seek to gather information, or does something learned change the course of the movie, or change how the protagonist goes for the goal?\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2210655}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316976933.9461901, "message": "I was going to suggest that, even as just a way to play around and see what comes up.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2210753}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316977834.5224521, "message": "I hadn't put Action in, but doing that gives an OS benchmark of Doing", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2210833}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316976111.1975219, "message": "'No' he does not actively seek to gather information?  I like it as a benchmark and as an early signpost.  I can go with Obtain as a goal", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2210696}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316975816.394788, "message": "I would say, \"No.\"\n\nThe steps in the OS, more or less, are:", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2210679}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316976063.1255391, "message": "Find an idiot\nSuss the idiot out at the Apt\nDecide to go/Get hurt\nCall the doctor, oops, Sasseur\n(stuff I don't remember)\nCall LeBlanc \nNeed to find the Love Nest\nCall Cheval\nFeed Cheval\nCheval calls\n\nMost of these seem like \"Obtaining\" in the steps, and the others are \"Gathering Information.\"\n\nGathering information diverts the story (I *think* it's what motivates Cheval to want to audit Pierre, but that's not really stated.) It's why they call the doctor.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2210692}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316977791.573679, "message": "We have Change, Linear, Action, Optionlock, Failure, Good, and a goal of Obtaining.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2210829}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316977352.8014591, "message": "Even as it stands now, Gathering Information isn't an option for OS benchmark--it's Doing or Understanding.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2210788}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316978168.7087309, "message": "I missed the \"linear\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2210865}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316987890.039062, "message": "I like JimBarker's thought that Pignon is concerned about Pierre's future, btw. I think that's a really good thought.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2211771}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316992732.4867361, "message": "I can do that! Just the link, or the whole message?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2212305}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316992598.0500269, "message": "Just an aside on farce as I saw the question brought up regarding its structure: I just finished writing a draft of one and did a lot of research (not really a whole lot out there), but did find this to fit the definition fairly well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farce\n\nThere's often an element of deus ex machina in how the initial problem is resolved and if we think about it here in terms of TDG, it somewhat holds true: Christine's involved in an automobile accident.  The resolution of Michael's problem of dressing up as a woman in Tootsie is resolved by this wholly contrived and unexpected revelation as \"Edward Kimberly\".  I found my resolution was very much in line with this, though it perfectly fit within the elements already at play and just added a whole other layer of absurdity.  \n\nJust thought I'd share...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2212284}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316992696.0479131, "message": "Sweet -- though if you shared it on Plus at least we'd know we could access it sometime in the future :)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2212301}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1316996736.7977791, "message": "The whole message - your thoughts on it - whatever, basically make a Google+ blog post about it. It's an insight into genre-oriented structure that I don't often see.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2212677}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317017025.8280311, "message": "Feel like this is winding down, no?  Anyone for a Problem?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2214533}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317036649.6895111, "message": "What was the issue?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2215836}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317053780.7453339, "message": "@jimhull r u really in Rio? :)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2217692}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317064438.3753209, "message": "This also makes Pignon's IC Issue \"Preconception\" -- certainly we are exploring \"is he really the idiot he comes off as\" for the movie.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2218892}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317064154.1738701, "message": "I think the problem is \"Help\". \n\nWhat creates the problems in the OS? The Gentleman tries to help Pierre. And then every time Pignon tries to help, things get worse. He calls the wrong person. He invites an auditor to the house. He helps the auditor to the bathroom and opens the wrong door. He tries to help Sasseur by giving her a good plan, but he's actually talking to the wife.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2218862}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317064289.483686, "message": "This gives us an OS Issue of Attitude, which I think works. Pierre gets called out for his attitude by Pignon even. Even Pignon's major characteristic is his unbreakable positive attitude.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2218870}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317064338.5177529, "message": "The catalyst of Approach seems spot on: every time they try something new, the movie heats up.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2218878}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317065963.2367859, "message": "@sam_potter I was virtually, thanks to YouTube...and @MikeDerk -- excellent points.  To me, that Element was the first thing that jumped out at me watching this.  I know I always say start at the top, but when it is this clearly illustrated...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2219048}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317067837.0743511, "message": "I know! I've been chomping at the bit to get there. Which made it doubly frustrating when I couldn't justify the concerns or issues that well.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2219231}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317068211.8631761, "message": "That sounds good to me - I'm just letting all the possibilities fire through my synapses right now (hoping it doesn't cause a short-circuit.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2219276}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317068312.3277559, "message": "It seemed so obvious that I thought I had to be wrong.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2219298}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317068879.0020809, "message": "That's been a successful strategy for me  @Bee", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2219426}, {"user_id": 33839, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317069420.524447, "message": "Ok, back from walking the dog.  Makes sense to me...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2219556}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317075310.5241611, "message": "yeah", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2220153}, {"user_id": 36437, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317073928.479636, "message": "So that's it, right? We're down to one storyform?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2220045}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317074623.7225289, "message": "I think so.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2220096}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317075462.9653001, "message": "Does it match the one on the site?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2220171}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317075681.7273619, "message": "yes!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2220181}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317075796.561728, "message": "Nice. Too bad it doesn't list what the OS Goal is.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2220188}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317143758.1659651, "message": "I found this analysis disappointing, and I'm trying to figure out why. I think half of it is that I come to analysis with expectations that are not accurate. For instance, I assume that Concerns will play a bigger role than Issues; better put: I assume it will be easy to see Concerns. \n\nClearly, this is not always the case. The OS Problem in this movie was front and center. I'm curious what the effect of that was. Or if comedies do this more. Or farces. Or \"thinner\" movies. \n\nIs the argument the movie puts forward weaker because the Concerns are less visible? Is the movie more \"fun\" though?\n\nNow that we have the story form, what do we learn from it?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2226283}, {"user_id": 7645, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317147670.874438, "message": "I don't know if I would say disappointing - I think there were some good observations - especially the one that Authors can emphasize whatever portion of the storyform they want, and that different cultures have different approaches. I also liked Barker's interpretation of farces. I'm not sure the purpose of \"The Dinner Game\" was to specifically argue a point-of-view, I think it managed to do it in the end, but that its main goal was the comedic moments occurring from too much Help going on.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2226726}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317162103.3669829, "message": "There is a good podcast where Chris talks about comedies and how  they work or fall short with Dramatica Pro.  I think it was 40 year old Virgin.  Does anyone else remember?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2228042}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317163262.9123721, "message": "To that end, I think my goal is sometimes to argue a POV, but frequently it's to entertain and to make sure that two characters have strong, contrasting POVs. That's been changing as I've matured and studied Dram, though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2228147}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317163037.4622121, "message": "I don't remember him saying that they fall short. I remember him saying that comedies require you to put in all the funny stuff. Maybe the fallout is that they don't quite hue to the story form.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2228127}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317163580.3758421, "message": "@jimhull And, it was only disappointing because it ended with a fizzle.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2228188}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317163188.478441, "message": "@jimhull I don't think that most stories are trying to argue a point-of-view -- by which I mean that I don't think most authors set out to do that. I feel like the whole \"a story is an argument\" and \"a story is about one thing\" is a relatively new thing in the zeitgeist.\n\nYes, I believe that it has always been true (for the most part), but that it's something available to us that we can talk about and read about... isn't that new?\n\n(Despite what ol' cockeyed says about Aristotle.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2228142}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317267094.7413211, "message": "@MikeDerk Tough crowd. ;-) are you going to make me listen to the whole thing again to get the quote right?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2238119}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317273624.1885159, "message": "@sam_potter Not a chance.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2238606}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317273672.6047161, "message": "It's just that I work in comedy and horror, and I hate that they are two genres that people give excuses to: all the counts is if they are funny, or scary. \n\nYeah, true, but... can't we have it all?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2238611}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 45422, "date_created": 1317295483.41206, "message": "@MikeDerk I agree.  A complete story form AND horror fully explored.  Comedy AND a well argued storyform.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2240258}]