convore.json/groups/hacker-news/what-is-the-best-language-for-a-beginner-programmer-to-learn/messages.json

[{"user_id": 31557, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305606050.849757, "message": "The main question is, does he want to build websites or web apps?", "group_id": 95, "id": 1078860}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305605942.8327999, "message": "Both are solid choices, though.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1078853}, {"user_id": 22924, "stars": [{"date_created": 1306859394.9467399, "user_id": 28560}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305605743.1955249, "message": "I'm searching for the best language to suggest to a friend who is interested in programming. IMHO the best would be a language which is stable and not too unusual in syntax \u2014 something that would build the best \"foundation\" for later work. I'm considering Python and Ruby at the moment, any comments / suggestions?", "group_id": 95, "id": 1078815}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [{"date_created": 1306668899.6393361, "user_id": 7577}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305605931.2621939, "message": "I'm +1 for Python and +0 for Ruby.  Both have really easy to understand syntax, but Python's verbose explicitness is, I've found, a little more newbie friendly.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1078849}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [{"date_created": 1309587113.42208, "user_id": 20138}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305605980.7268209, "message": "It does sort of depend on what they want to do, too.  Something to consider is how which of those two languages has the best community around X that they're trying to do.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1078856}, {"user_id": 22924, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305607137.8284719, "message": "That's sort of the problem I'm having with choosing. He asked for the language that would set him up best for any area that he may want to explore in the future.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1078986}, {"user_id": 26065, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305612796.6845341, "user_id": 15141}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305610582.5089321, "message": "ruby, python, Logo are good choices. I would lean a bit more towards the functional side, there was a reason that MIT teached Scheme first.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1079254}, {"user_id": 4149, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305788431.3782899, "user_id": 30662}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305609717.727366, "message": "Depends I would start with c++ is a great language and can be used for a lot and if you master that you can learn most languages", "group_id": 95, "id": 1079170}, {"user_id": 15141, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305609359.3130591, "message": "+1 for Python. It felt easier than ruby to me.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1079154}, {"user_id": 31557, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305609796.3078041, "message": "I've always felt that both python and ruby are easy to learn if you've already grasped the concept of coding.This might sound abit off but starting with simple stuff like HTML/CSS then php really helps,then he can progress to object oriented programing.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1079171}, {"user_id": 15141, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305610172.438132, "user_id": 26065}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305609698.4763701, "message": "Personally, if the purpose is just to \"learn\" programming instead of learn a specific language to do stuff. I would also recommend to start one week with logo. It is immediately visual. Loop and recursion is fun with this language.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1079169}, {"user_id": 22924, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305610189.568399, "user_id": 26065}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305609896.266396, "message": "@italiano40 I'm uncertain about C++ and the like because of memory management and pointers, though. I feel like those might be difficult hurdles to overtake, especially when they're thrown in with all the other beginner programming concepts.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1079177}, {"user_id": 22924, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305609939.804559, "message": "But really, if the point is building a good foundation, I suppose it'd be best to learn them as soon as possible :)", "group_id": 95, "id": 1079180}, {"user_id": 4149, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305609981.33814, "message": "@hans yea they are hurls but not that difficult to grasp so if you want a solid base for programming c++ would be your answer", "group_id": 95, "id": 1079186}, {"user_id": 2293, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305644256.1346419, "user_id": 4149}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305610765.490093, "message": "C++ or Java provides a good foundation for anything else. The learning curve is much steeper, but in my opinion, the benefits you reap are much greater.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1079272}, {"user_id": 3789, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305613889.2950921, "message": "I'm testing out Python on a few newbies. It's been good so far. Even Mit has started using Python for its first course.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1079454}, {"user_id": 24476, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305618582.071574, "message": "pascal/delphi or java. Then move to python. Else you won't appreciate dicts and tuples, =p", "group_id": 95, "id": 1079948}, {"user_id": 31125, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305618915.603142, "message": "+1 for ruby. Have been working with both but a preference for ruby. Nicer syntax, no indentation problems and more metaprograming possibilities...", "group_id": 95, "id": 1079978}, {"user_id": 31125, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305625637.0276151, "message": "Have a look at Coffeescript too", "group_id": 95, "id": 1080879}, {"user_id": 26065, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305624987.071661, "message": "@ramkalari There you have it. Our education system goes down the toilet... :P just kidding", "group_id": 95, "id": 1080800}, {"user_id": 3444, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305642478.8829269, "user_id": 719}, {"date_created": 1305644273.207433, "user_id": 4149}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305633050.943825, "message": "+1 for C++, it was the first language I learned when I was 14 (besides HTML/CSS/JavaScript which don't really count IMO). If 14 year old me could understand it then anyone can :)", "group_id": 95, "id": 1081565}, {"user_id": 18775, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305644276.5178411, "user_id": 4149}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305642061.4386721, "message": "+1000 for C++", "group_id": 95, "id": 1083347}, {"user_id": 22924, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305643586.638037, "message": "@mgan I like the HTML + JS idea. Writing a bit of HTML to make a simple page would probably be pretty interesting. Later it'd lead into jQuery, Node, maybe CoffeeScript.. I like it.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1083720}, {"user_id": 30618, "stars": [{"date_created": 1306668845.9284799, "user_id": 7577}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305643418.529243, "message": "+1 for python over ruby.  For a starting language do not do c++ just too many concepts to learn just to write something simple.   \n\nMost asked what this person hopes to achieve and I think that is a valid point.  They probably won't stick with learning to program unless they are building something tangible.  Which is why I recommend learning javascript.  Maybe have them build out a really simple html page with some javascript.  Eventually move them into nodejs.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1083678}, {"user_id": 30618, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305644073.4707799, "message": "@hans and there are many levels of learning javascript.  it is okay to start out writing a bunch of anonymous functions just to get familiar with coding.  My only concern is learning how to write elegant javascript can be an endeavor and requires reading some douglas crockford and to a novice programmer that might be difficult.  In addition, they never really learn some of the key principles of oop that something like python, java, or (pick your language).  \n\nBut avoiding css and just sticking with simple html and then transition into jquery would be a great start.  Then maybe switch gears and spend some time just reading oop theory would have to happen at some point.  though by then they might of developed a passion for programming and they would want to do it regardless.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1083816}, {"user_id": 323, "stars": [{"date_created": 1307019038.4908421, "user_id": 28862}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305649233.1996541, "message": "There's nothing better than instant gratification for learning -- and typing javascript into a chrome console or ruby into irb is excellent for that. But learning individual language syntaxes isn't as important as grasping the concepts of variables, and variable scoping, and methods versus procedures, and a taste of data types (like arrays, hashes, and sets).", "group_id": 95, "id": 1084654}, {"user_id": 30618, "stars": [{"date_created": 1306668827.3581691, "user_id": 7577}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305661042.9676299, "message": "@mrm yeah having the console is great and knowing that it is there for when you quickly need to check the syntax on something is a valuable skill/concept.  Throwing out there there that python also has an interactive console.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1087211}, {"user_id": 16719, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305662010.9829271, "message": "Javasctipt with HTML5/Canvas is *fun* to begin with.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1087366}, {"user_id": 842, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305714134.3466489, "message": "Hello world is print \"hello world\"", "group_id": 95, "id": 1095808}, {"user_id": 842, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305730937.9019711, "user_id": 26065}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305714147.723006, "message": "Don't understand why so many are suggesting c++...", "group_id": 95, "id": 1095810}, {"user_id": 842, "stars": [{"date_created": 1306668795.5331399, "user_id": 7577}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305714127.720762, "message": "Definitely python", "group_id": 95, "id": 1095803}, {"user_id": 3444, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305727742.753684, "message": "@jca Well C++ really just gives newbies a solid understanding of OOP. Not to mention the strong typing helps beginners not get as confused about data types and such.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1097413}, {"user_id": 30684, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305764850.948143, "message": "@bhu1st Not sure HTML5 is a programming language. Nor think it to be the best to begin with.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1104993}, {"user_id": 30684, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305764877.7208929, "message": "@jca Partial brain damage.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1104999}, {"user_id": 30684, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305783217.29193, "user_id": 26065}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305765707.9524469, "message": "@mgan The \"key principles of OOP\" have been subverted, distorted and mangled by many-a-language. If you want to learn OOP, learn Smalltalk. Or its variants.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1105136}, {"user_id": 30684, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305765153.541393, "message": "@tswicegood If you don't know Ruby, you aren't qualified to call it a solid choice, or not.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1105043}, {"user_id": 30684, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305770237.147547, "user_id": 26088}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305765109.4790959, "message": "@jca The level of simplicity a language specification provides to print text doesn't tell anyone how good (or bad) that language may (or may not) be, for a beginner. With this said, Python is a popular choice amongst beginners, now. I'd recommend Javascript (or, perhaps, a Lisp)", "group_id": 95, "id": 1105035}, {"user_id": 30684, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305783166.8394511, "user_id": 26065}, {"date_created": 1305788591.951509, "user_id": 15141}, {"date_created": 1305788883.370059, "user_id": 31125}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305765026.0689039, "message": "@CrowderSoup \"Well C++ really just gives newbies a solid understanding of OOP\", no it does not.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1105024}, {"user_id": 30684, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305765171.2399011, "message": "@CrowderSoup Why doesn't Javascript count?", "group_id": 95, "id": 1105044}, {"user_id": 842, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305765282.709523, "message": "@Mustapha it suggests simplicity was valued by the designer :)  I agree javascript would be good choice as well.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1105060}, {"user_id": 719, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305765841.337728, "message": "\"Key principles of OOP\"... I'll just leave this here> http://apocalisp.wordpress.com/2008/12/04/no-such-thing/", "group_id": 95, "id": 1105157}, {"user_id": 30684, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305770278.3137579, "user_id": 26088}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305765444.119982, "message": "@hans Pointers are simple when you don't overcomplicate your understanding of them. Imagine a toddler, pointing to an object. This is all pointers are. It probably isn't going to be much help to a beginner, in the initial stages of their development, (memory management, et al) but, it would enlighten them on how such matters are handled, and can thereby move on to simpler less antiquated languages, without the naivet\u00e9 of a beginner via Python, for example.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1105099}, {"user_id": 16365, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305770004.718725, "message": "Id go with the language that a friend or someone close to you can teach you. At the end, all are good choices, but having someone in real life to teach you stuff is priceless.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1105832}, {"user_id": 16719, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305779844.7655561, "message": "@Mustapha I know HTML5 is a markup language. I am suggesting to begin with Javascript. Writing Javascript with Canvas element is so much fun for beginners that they forgot all DOM manipulation/UI stuffs for a moment and begin to create visually rich and interactive apps inside browser (it's like drawing with pencil on a paper canvas). I mentored a guy who wanted to learn programming few months back, i suggested him to start with Javascript in Canvas, offered few guidelines, in just one month time he was able to create a two player game. Of course, math is essential and here's the reference book : http://diveintohtml5.org", "group_id": 95, "id": 1107832}, {"user_id": 960, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305815071.451858, "message": "@Mustapha Who said I don't know Ruby?", "group_id": 95, "id": 1111581}, {"user_id": 26088, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1305819332.553755, "message": "I have always thought, why if there is a Canvas for html, there is no StackPanel, WrapPanel, Grid, etc uhm... :)", "group_id": 95, "id": 1112608}, {"user_id": 34099, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1306237767.67646, "message": "C", "group_id": 95, "id": 1165094}, {"user_id": 34412, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1306480255.916378, "message": "I think C", "group_id": 95, "id": 1201734}, {"user_id": 19202, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1306488008.557909, "message": "It depends on what you want to learn. If you want to know how computers work, then go for something fairly low-level like C or Go. If you want to program web-pages, go for Javascript. If you want to understand how computation works, go for Scheme or ML (Scheme/ML is the fastest path to understand all concepts about computers in-depth but the ride is less rewarding in the beginning)", "group_id": 95, "id": 1202951}, {"user_id": 32680, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1306587159.1876619, "message": "Perl!", "group_id": 95, "id": 1212419}, {"user_id": 8282, "stars": [{"date_created": 1306634094.394362, "user_id": 34462}, {"date_created": 1306668918.9086289, "user_id": 7577}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1306613299.1069131, "message": "according to MIT, it's Python", "group_id": 95, "id": 1213819}, {"user_id": 8282, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1306613321.7496459, "message": "(see introduction to programming lectures)", "group_id": 95, "id": 1213822}, {"user_id": 32750, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1306624887.094039, "message": "pyton or ruby", "group_id": 95, "id": 1215114}, {"user_id": 34462, "stars": [{"date_created": 1306668917.1607029, "user_id": 7577}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1306634108.0401509, "message": "Python can be taught to an 8-year-old.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1215729}, {"user_id": 8430, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1306692077.377975, "message": "Python is unparallelled in its straightforwardness and ability to deliver a firm yet comfortable introduction into imperative programming. It's not the neatest thing around - as I'm sure most of you have a non-python favourite language - but for learning in general, I'd recommend it any day over any other language.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1218859}, {"user_id": 34623, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1306781381.9582679, "message": "how about Perl, you can write 3 lines of code instead of 30 of other language.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1229944}, {"user_id": 15102, "stars": [{"date_created": 1306859393.106257, "user_id": 28560}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1306812333.882812, "message": "How about Brainfuck? The solution is always a one-liner and there are only 6 commands you need to memorize. It's also practically impossible to mess up syntactically. Give it a Go.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1233987}, {"user_id": 30684, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1306812731.0045371, "message": "@philipscuong I wouldn't suggest that.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1234008}, {"user_id": 30684, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1306812744.1392131, "message": "@llama Stop being an idiot.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1234009}, {"user_id": 23269, "stars": [{"date_created": 1306826915.1035261, "user_id": 26065}], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1306820398.4311249, "message": "@azer ctually the reason MIT switched was because they introduced robotics programming in 6.001 and python was the only language with a library for the robot they were using... see http://danweinreb.org/blog/why-did-mit-switch-from-scheme-to-python and other reports.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1234831}, {"user_id": 34929, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1307004952.22785, "message": "I'd go for Scala. It'll allow beginners to get a good grounding in both imperative *and* functional programming concepts, what more could you want?", "group_id": 95, "id": 1264563}, {"user_id": 26065, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1307009531.93398, "message": "No offense @welp, but Scala, especially when done right, is way to complex for a beginner.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1264897}, {"user_id": 11421, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1307013427.7440391, "message": "Python. Clean, simple syntax, many applications. Start here: http://learnpythonthehardway.org/index", "group_id": 95, "id": 1265458}, {"user_id": 34929, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1307012192.974066, "message": "It's not too bad @martin_sunset - you don't have to code in FP style or anything, you can just stick to basic imperative programming. When you use Scala like that, it gives you a good grounding in generic programming", "group_id": 95, "id": 1265328}, {"user_id": 21305, "stars": [], "topic_id": 35600, "date_created": 1309080369.8958061, "message": "I started with Python. Ruby is also a good contender.", "group_id": 95, "id": 1487977}]