convore.json/groups/hacker-news/what-is-the-best-programming-language-for-novices-to-start-with/messages.json

[{"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299035250.7218709, "message": "BASIC", "group_id": 95, "id": 242869}, {"user_id": 942, "stars": [{"date_created": 1299046451.713361, "user_id": 16810}, {"date_created": 1299159511.242182, "user_id": 4375}, {"date_created": 1301088759.283546, "user_id": 25431}, {"date_created": 1301457582.9866371, "user_id": 10573}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299035371.696934, "message": "After seeing what Zed Shaw has done with his book (http://learnpythonthehardway.org/index) , I think Python is a great choice.", "group_id": 95, "id": 242872}, {"user_id": 14930, "stars": [{"date_created": 1301539110.070905, "user_id": 4903}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299037606.364774, "message": "Python or Ruby are probably the best choices in terms of how the language is constructed. PHP is syntactically sketchy, but has some excellent documentation and lots of Internet answers available via Google. Instant gratification is probably PHP's biggest strength when someone sees what happens in their browser when they try something new (the power of instant gratification should never be underestimated when teaching programming). Python and Ruby both have console apps that are good for this, but there's just something about seeing the results in the browser that really lights fires.", "group_id": 95, "id": 243087}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299039134.8539071, "message": "I checked out the Zed Shaw book. Text, text, theory, text, blah BORING!!! 75 pages to an exercise with an ELSE and IF?!!?! YAAAWN\n\nTry this instead:\nhttp://i.msdn.microsoft.com/ff384126.smallbasicscreenshot(en-us).jpg\n\nSmall Basic: Programming Is Fun\n\nMicrosoft Small Basic puts the fun back into computer programming. With a friendly development environment that is very easy to master, it eases both kids and adults into the world of programming.\n\nIf you're a novice, this will keep you busy for at least a month or two!", "group_id": 95, "id": 243217}, {"user_id": 9952, "stars": [{"date_created": 1299100339.4668419, "user_id": 16261}, {"date_created": 1299123113.8573239, "user_id": 1128}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299040109.33304, "message": "Lisp. Try http://htdp.org and Dr Racket - http://racket-lang.org/", "group_id": 95, "id": 243494}, {"user_id": 3952, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299039141.3481491, "message": "I'd say it depends... do they want to learn general programming? Or is there something specific in mind that they want to do (Web, etc)?", "group_id": 95, "id": 243220}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299040210.8151131, "message": "http://ompldr.org/vNnl1ZQ", "group_id": 95, "id": 243496}, {"user_id": 9207, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299041127.0293789, "message": "Lua is a nice language for learning. It's small and elegant. The only shortcoming is limited ways to run it. This is a pretty good resource for writing simple 2D games: http://love2d.org/", "group_id": 95, "id": 243576}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299041735.025696, "message": "@tl nice! cute graphics and games = fun for novices.", "group_id": 95, "id": 243611}, {"user_id": 6661, "stars": [{"date_created": 1299055027.598083, "user_id": 6415}, {"date_created": 1299068458.8576651, "user_id": 2458}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299043839.8779681, "message": "Python with it's implementation of forced whitespace (yes I know that is a gripe for many) is a good place to begin. I say that from personal experience. I started off with C and read the basic syntax, then did a basic crash course in PHP (just enough to get me to make Wordpress themes from scratch) and now have started with Python and the difference is huge. Everything I hated about programming was what was wrong with the languages C and Php and not programming in itself.", "group_id": 95, "id": 244495}, {"user_id": 6661, "stars": [{"date_created": 1299068455.8156159, "user_id": 2458}, {"date_created": 1299156061.5051351, "user_id": 6165}, {"date_created": 1299156068.0601101, "user_id": 5053}, {"date_created": 1299381468.0966489, "user_id": 6175}, {"date_created": 1301025553.343704, "user_id": 25060}, {"date_created": 1301041683.4284649, "user_id": 21923}, {"date_created": 1301087607.592351, "user_id": 1165}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299043902.6117699, "message": "The best resources to get going would be, 1) How to think like a Computer Scientist, 2) Dive Into Python and 3) MIT OCW on Computer Programming", "group_id": 95, "id": 244498}, {"user_id": 2582, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299044139.576395, "message": "I agree about Python. Simple enough to learn quickly, flexible and powerful enough not to hold you back (for most applications).", "group_id": 95, "id": 244547}, {"user_id": 3751, "stars": [{"date_created": 1299180089.793535, "user_id": 6004}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299046096.893579, "message": "Python or Ruby +1, or any modern language with interactive REPL and proper OO and functional programming support", "group_id": 95, "id": 245253}, {"user_id": 11647, "stars": [{"date_created": 1299156041.4182279, "user_id": 5053}, {"date_created": 1301087637.453084, "user_id": 1165}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299059733.4568419, "message": "@armano Actually no, Objective-c expects you to already know advanced paradigms like OOP, Event oriented programming and MVC beforehand. My vote goes to @tuhin , that is a really great path to go.", "group_id": 95, "id": 246015}, {"user_id": 5053, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299058576.0775731, "message": "How about Objective-C, is it recommended for a newbie who had no background in programming?", "group_id": 95, "id": 245880}, {"user_id": 3952, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299075088.5491381, "message": "Although (I agree) that Python would be a good first language, I have to think that the disproportionate number of Pythonistas here on Convore will lead to some skewed results", "group_id": 95, "id": 247036}, {"user_id": 12416, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299094132.6841409, "message": "woops", "group_id": 95, "id": 252116}, {"user_id": 12416, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299094127.618752, "message": "If pick Python check out this course: http://cs.northwestern.edu/~akuzma/classes/EECS110-s09/lec/lec16.ppt", "group_id": 95, "id": 252111}, {"user_id": 12416, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299094139.1565521, "message": "http://cs.northwestern.edu/~akuzma/classes/EECS110-s10/", "group_id": 95, "id": 252120}, {"user_id": 12416, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299094208.7691309, "message": "It covers fun stuff like making fractals, implementing conway's game of life, generating sentences with Markov Chains... basically every problem set sort of covers a different area of Comp Sci. Whereas Learn Python The Hardway is just kind of about building a text based adventure which I found rather boring.", "group_id": 95, "id": 252138}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299093916.3463969, "message": "I have taught beginners programming some of them later began competing on ACM and other contests. I would never ever start with a \"real\" or \"proper\" language. They will get buried in details instead of developing cognitive skills needed to master in programming. If you really want to teach a beginner a LISP style language, rather start with LOGO. There's tons of material there already and hey if it was good for Abelson... LOGO + BASIC = all the paradigms in programming you'll likely ever need. If 10 year olds can learn them, so can you.", "group_id": 95, "id": 252072}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299094741.2550881, "message": "@davidhollander This is a really fun and interesting course. However, I would really love to meet the group of people who had no exposition to programming before and were understanding recursion (to the point that they can write useful recursive routines themselves) 1 WEEK into the course.... Seems that real novices will both get amused and somehow think they are not smart enough for this stuff.", "group_id": 95, "id": 252213}, {"user_id": 719, "stars": [{"date_created": 1301491160.9676731, "user_id": 20848}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299122650.9450099, "message": "@adhithyanr Something that seems unmentioned is that if you can't already touch-type you should learn ASAP. It's a massive productivity boost.", "group_id": 95, "id": 256869}, {"user_id": 15929, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299147642.1666529, "message": "imho, one should start with basic programming practices, etc. after that, http://tryruby.org/ and http://railsforzombies.org/ is a good step 2 and 3...", "group_id": 95, "id": 259405}, {"user_id": 8029, "stars": [{"date_created": 1299165250.7908969, "user_id": 26}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299156542.8973589, "message": "scheme might be the best language to start, it's syntax is very lightweight", "group_id": 95, "id": 259898}, {"user_id": 8029, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299156565.189419, "message": "it's easy language to learn in a couple of hours", "group_id": 95, "id": 259901}, {"user_id": 3445, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299157338.3055921, "message": "I think starting with a crappy language may actually be a good idea", "group_id": 95, "id": 259957}, {"user_id": 6165, "stars": [{"date_created": 1301386197.2129531, "user_id": 22200}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299156421.263113, "message": "@davidwparker I'll agree there are a disproportionate number of Python programmers on Convore, but it doesn't mean they are wrong.  I think Python is the best 1st language you can learn. Even more so than Ruby.  My reason is that Python is a little more structured than Ruby. There is a right way to do something and a wrong way. In Ruby, there are a lot of right ways to do something.  And I think as a person who is learning the language, like I am, its kind of hard to pick up when every programmer seems to have a different style.  In Python, its pretty much written the same, no matter who wrote it.  I think a lot of programmers prefer the Ruby way.  It gives them more freedom and creativity but I think it makes it harder to read too.", "group_id": 95, "id": 259881}, {"user_id": 3445, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299156512.194258, "message": "more important is to pick a project and start building it", "group_id": 95, "id": 259893}, {"user_id": 3445, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299156500.5262411, "message": "basic, php, javascript, java doesn't really matter", "group_id": 95, "id": 259891}, {"user_id": 3445, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299157294.9047539, "message": "more general question though is \"should you start off with the best language\"", "group_id": 95, "id": 259951}, {"user_id": 15929, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299159087.0347149, "message": "@axod wouldn't that language be *the best language to start with*?", "group_id": 95, "id": 260103}, {"user_id": 14970, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299160480.8566041, "message": "This is a great thread. So it looks like Python is what I'll be diving into next - any more resources to begin?", "group_id": 95, "id": 260173}, {"user_id": 4375, "stars": [{"date_created": 1301386190.516407, "user_id": 22200}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299159947.138845, "message": "I like the idea of Python as a first language, but I think kids (and I mean 8-16 year-olds) want to see something happen on a web page.  I know was impatient then and wanted graphics to happen, rather than seeing text.  What are some resources to get someone going with JavaScript?  I guess someone might have to also teach HTML so the JS can have DIVs to play with and such, right?", "group_id": 95, "id": 260159}, {"user_id": 18408, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299174250.191365, "message": "My first class in college was C++.  I didn't understand a thing.  But for the past few years I've used C#, which I caught onto quickly.", "group_id": 95, "id": 261780}, {"user_id": 18228, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299173810.0783391, "message": "I've recently had a small discussion on this with @bryan and he suggested I take a look at both Python and Ruby individually and see which one I find more enjoyable to write. He referred to Python as being \"whitespace significant\" (which I didn't understand at the time) and Ruby as a more human-readable language. I would say it comes down to preference on the two but having seen some video tutorials, I think I'll be jumping on the Python bandwagon soon.", "group_id": 95, "id": 261726}, {"user_id": 719, "stars": [{"date_created": 1299175467.711724, "user_id": 4375}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299175265.94205, "message": "@dabent Resources to get started with JavaScript > http://promotejs.com. There's a random link to community approved documentation on each refresh. Most of the time it links to Mozilla's JavaScript docs though (https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript/)", "group_id": 95, "id": 261877}, {"user_id": 16271, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299182158.163552, "message": "@resilient Another plus for Python is that it seems to be on the upswing in popularity as compared to Ruby.  Although never having written a line of code in either Python or Ruby I have no opinion beyond what I see in the zeitgeist.", "group_id": 95, "id": 262964}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299189635.1801269, "message": "@dasmin5. C++ is hard. C++0x is going to be a bit easier but still way too hard for a first language. C# is hard also, but you can get away with copypasta and produce code that works (or at least mostly works). I would always recommend becoming a MASTER of a toy language like BASIC before embarking on anything more serious. After you master one, everything will be much much easier.", "group_id": 95, "id": 264353}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [{"date_created": 1301491294.1445949, "user_id": 20848}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299190929.3536849, "message": "@unwrangle. Scala, Common LISP, Haskell, and even, yes, C++0x have been described as very strong languages. One of them even happens to be an industry standard. All of them are very very difficult to learn even for a seasoned programmer. By \"learning\" I mean actually learning about all aspects of the language, recognizing the right time to use all of the idioms and forms, knowing how to debug your code, redesign, refactor, etc. All of them introduce too many concepts (and no, lisp and scheme are not easy just beacuse it's all lists... continuations and stack unwinding for beginners?!?).\n\nWould you give someone LEGOs or would you give them a CNC machine and Pro-E and say have at it, it's the best thing to learn?", "group_id": 95, "id": 264607}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299189541.3667181, "message": "@pimeys: not if you never programmed before and didn't take many math courses.", "group_id": 95, "id": 264342}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299191108.8058741, "message": "BTW, Python is hard to argue against but I would certainly pick something easier as the very very first thing.\n\n@adhithyanr, @AroonUp Whatever you pick, make sure you read Peter Norvig's article on learning how to program:\n\nhttp://norvig.com/21-days.html\n(BTW he's a big fan of Python and LISP)", "group_id": 95, "id": 264632}, {"user_id": 8029, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299193265.1115639, "message": "learn the problems first, learn the simple way to solve them", "group_id": 95, "id": 264832}, {"user_id": 8029, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299193250.4586029, "message": "@megatron smaller syntax is much better", "group_id": 95, "id": 264831}, {"user_id": 8029, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299193346.8519199, "message": "you learn the syntax fast, then you start learning the problems", "group_id": 95, "id": 264847}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299194267.48633, "message": "I really don't think money was any kind of factor for MIT. Valued at $8.0 billion in 2009, MIT's endowment is the sixth-largest among American colleges and universities (Wikipedia).", "group_id": 95, "id": 264956}, {"user_id": 8029, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299193327.9407401, "message": "and scheme was the FIRST language in MIT a long time", "group_id": 95, "id": 264843}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299194117.205281, "message": "That last thing is a link from Peter Norvig explaining why he focused on using Python when teaching AI to novices. This guy is widely recognized as one of the hardcore LISP programmers.", "group_id": 95, "id": 264932}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299194069.7227421, "message": "@pimeys, but it's not anymore and there's an interesting discussion by people on why that is the case. Since MIT invented Scheme, I am sure they had really good reasons to abandon it as a first language. \n\nhttp://norvig.com/python-lisp.html", "group_id": 95, "id": 264917}, {"user_id": 8029, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299194115.285902, "message": "yeah, probably the money, like here in HUT", "group_id": 95, "id": 264931}, {"user_id": 8029, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299194143.649864, "message": "now they're getting the scheme back", "group_id": 95, "id": 264940}, {"user_id": 8029, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299194152.7615981, "message": "with python and scala, but scheme first", "group_id": 95, "id": 264944}, {"user_id": 8029, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299194296.142977, "message": "or the things were too \"hard\"", "group_id": 95, "id": 264959}, {"user_id": 8029, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299194410.1235001, "message": "but the industry demand is so strong", "group_id": 95, "id": 264968}, {"user_id": 8029, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299194464.01647, "message": "so maybe you don't need to know what happens inside and how things and paradigms work", "group_id": 95, "id": 264973}, {"user_id": 8029, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299194128.8494849, "message": "Nokia wanted Java coders, somebody had to teach them", "group_id": 95, "id": 264936}, {"user_id": 8029, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299194403.8891511, "message": "it's just that all of us shouldn't really program", "group_id": 95, "id": 264967}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299194374.0706191, "message": "@pimeys: I am more willing to believe the last argument. Certain \"easy\" concepts are not really that easy. If you have some of the most selected, most thoroughly tested, battle-hardened student population like that at MIT and they are struggling with Scheme, then something is off. It should be easy, not \"easy.\" It shouldn't be hard or \"hard\", just easy.", "group_id": 95, "id": 264965}, {"user_id": 18228, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299200684.7897501, "message": "@mridley That makes two of us!", "group_id": 95, "id": 265357}, {"user_id": 18530, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299201459.546886, "message": "I teach programming, with others, at the local hackerspace in NJ - fubarlabs(.com). We use python for raw programming for beginners. HOWEVER, because of the immediate physical aspect  to it, teaching people with the arduino micro controller platform (using processing, which is similar to C) has been quite successful.", "group_id": 95, "id": 265405}, {"user_id": 11647, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299201811.6480529, "message": "@megatron if you check the \"what was your first programming language\" thread I actually did that as a child. Though in my opinion I learnt in the wrong order, it's better to learn first basic then logo (it's better to shift your mind from procedural to functional programming). Then I would had forced myself to read \"c64 assembly for kids\", with all that knowledge I could have easily skipped at least the first year of CS.", "group_id": 95, "id": 265437}, {"user_id": 18537, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299202219.183969, "message": "To summarize the 'serious' answers here: Python or maybe Ruby.  PHP is not a growth language.  Scheme, Haskell, etc... are 'pure' but are not as useful right off the bat.  Java makes alot of sense in large teams or projects.  I'll personally suggest Python over Ruby because the documentation is better and if you're doing a web site, Django has much better documentation and the simplest and most edifying tutorial out there.", "group_id": 95, "id": 265471}, {"user_id": 18282, "stars": [{"date_created": 1301491512.567524, "user_id": 20848}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299259390.081553, "message": "@varud can you tell me what you mean by growth language? please", "group_id": 95, "id": 271422}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299267163.451925, "message": "@elg0nz: You've just described my learning path. BASIC, LOGO, 6502, then the rest came. I am 100% sure that with a bit more guidance (and maybe less C64 games ;)) you could have known enough to skip out of 1st year of CS by the time you were 8th grade or something.", "group_id": 95, "id": 272103}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299266931.14904, "message": "@varud I wasn't trolling, I was dead serious and speaking from a lot of novice mentoring experience, not to mention personal, competitive and professional experience.", "group_id": 95, "id": 272078}, {"user_id": 18537, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299362270.8312311, "message": "@megatron I appreciate you weren't trolling.  However, beginner-level Python is just as easy as BASIC and it's powerful enough to work within modern frameworks like Django, Pylons, etc...", "group_id": 95, "id": 277779}, {"user_id": 18537, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299362293.416611, "message": "@winslowsfeed I use the Tiobe scores to measure growth: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html", "group_id": 95, "id": 277781}, {"user_id": 18537, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299362383.9565451, "message": "Python, Objective C, and Lisp are growth languages - PHP, VisualBASIC, and Delphi are in decline.  Java and the C variants are still going strong.", "group_id": 95, "id": 277784}, {"user_id": 14930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299369739.7639351, "message": "I think the most important thing is wrapping your mind around the concepts. The popularity of any given language is not a good indicator of whether it's a good language to learn by. Learning a language shouldn't be the goal, but learning how to program. Once you've got your mind around the ideas, learning new languages is relatively easy. I don't say PHP is a good language to learn by because I like it; I just think it has all the right elements to get someone started quickly. There's no need to learn a framework (i.e. Rails/Django) along with everything else. Just start playing. The fact that it's interpreted and displayed statically makes it a cinch to pull together programming concepts and their results.", "group_id": 95, "id": 278011}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299384517.5495961, "message": "@varud I think Python is an OK choice. But there's more to learn, for example data structures, functions, various operations through closures and other kinds of anonymous functions, various libraries, whitespace sensitive syntax etc. In old-school BASICs, there's GOTO, GOSUB, strings, numbers and their arrays and that's it. Graphics is line, circle, fill, etc. Music is sound 3333, 20. I/O is silly and trivial. Just what a beginner needs, IMHO. The syntax is more or less just commands seperated by whitespace and commas. The model of computation resembles the Von Neumann machine, the memory layout is trivial, etc. \n\nThat way one becomes a master of the language quickly and then can move on to a much harder problem of mastering the problem solving involved in programming. A lot of the IT crowd really lacks the latter which is why they so often bomb tech interviews at fb,msft,goog,yhoo,etc despite being up to date in some framework, API, XML AJAX .NET buzzword bs.", "group_id": 95, "id": 278515}, {"user_id": 18347, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299428515.84373, "message": "Haskell/Java -> C++ -> then learn what your heart desires :)", "group_id": 95, "id": 280633}, {"user_id": 18537, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299427922.2766359, "message": "@megatron I think Peter Norvig says it best, 'Python or Scheme': http://norvig.com/21-days.html", "group_id": 95, "id": 280592}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299428658.4245141, "message": "@varud I just spent a few hours programming in Microsoft's Simple BASIC and I conclude it's crap. It's nothing like BASICs that used to ship with the 8-bits or even QBASIC that used to come preinstalled on every PC. I wonder if there is even a worthy successor. So for now I have to recant the BASIC recommendation unless you are happy running DOSBox and playing in QBASIC. I haven't gotten around to checking what's left of LOGO today, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's equally useless.\n\nPeter Norvig's site is a must read. Did you follow the link I posted 3 pages up or did we just both link to the same page? :)", "group_id": 95, "id": 280643}, {"user_id": 17516, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299472920.1752491, "message": "cool @davidhollander", "group_id": 95, "id": 285393}, {"user_id": 7561, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299477795.5032279, "message": "Thanks to Why's Poignant Guide even infants can learn Ruby! It's just that simple!", "group_id": 95, "id": 285829}, {"user_id": 2376, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299477928.0077801, "message": "From school to college, I have gone in this order: Basic > Logo > Java > (xHTML/CSS/Javascript) > PHP and now in my final semester: Python .. @elg0nz true, moving from Basic to Logo (procedural to functional programming) is the right progression. I say the from experience.", "group_id": 95, "id": 285836}, {"user_id": 8699, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299478135.548893, "message": "@micrypt +1 for touch typing", "group_id": 95, "id": 285856}, {"user_id": 18537, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299508104.4170589, "message": "@megatron Heh - I didn't see the other Norvig link - but I guess every good programming thread deserves a few links to that site.   There's some language that I heard about that's new but is geared specifically towards learning concepts.", "group_id": 95, "id": 287798}, {"user_id": 14444, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299527128.7788849, "message": "Ruby or Python", "group_id": 95, "id": 290159}, {"user_id": 7867, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299538984.053241, "message": "For a total beginner I would actually recommend Processing, it's one of the simplest languages, and the concepts (like in any language) are transferable, but the best part is: it's very visual. You actually see what you're doing and it's easier to follow through with learning it completely. http://processing.org I suggest getting the book too. It explains the concepts very well.", "group_id": 95, "id": 292308}, {"user_id": 17469, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1299599996.8511081, "message": "@JoelC I am going to try to learn Processing in the next few days, I'll put a post up here on how I feel about it..", "group_id": 95, "id": 297138}, {"user_id": 719, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1300900631.451088, "message": "Haskell (P.S: I'm only trolling ever so slightly.)", "group_id": 95, "id": 418995}, {"user_id": 7867, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1300899733.1273661, "message": "@megatron Good luck", "group_id": 95, "id": 418894}, {"user_id": 290, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1300999356.862051, "message": "VBA in excel heh.", "group_id": 95, "id": 430889}, {"user_id": 396, "stars": [{"date_created": 1301081738.358758, "user_id": 1661}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1300998379.103092, "message": "I also think programmers should learn C early on. It's useful to have a low level perspective.", "group_id": 95, "id": 430645}, {"user_id": 396, "stars": [{"date_created": 1301149655.202764, "user_id": 7912}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1300998316.3292661, "message": "JavaScript, the most widely deployed language, ever. It has it's quirks, but overall it's pretty good.", "group_id": 95, "id": 430636}, {"user_id": 24135, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301001743.095592, "message": "I would give Python a try! \u30c4", "group_id": 95, "id": 431325}, {"user_id": 16069, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301067546.0134101, "message": "Python, for sure.", "group_id": 95, "id": 439490}, {"user_id": 25354, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301077447.5233729, "message": "Ruby.", "group_id": 95, "id": 440961}, {"user_id": 25374, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301079829.7628801, "message": "PYTHON", "group_id": 95, "id": 441465}, {"user_id": 20554, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301143129.186666, "message": "There are two schools of thought: 1) Build something useful and practical (like a website with Django or Rails), or 2) Do something fun. I argue that to get novices interested, you need to do some fun first. (I'd also argue that building a website in Django or Rails isn't exactly mind-blowing fun for a novice.) So for fun... I say: BigTrak! (If you're talking real novices who've never programmed before ever.) http://www.bigtrakisback.com/ (Lego Mindstorms or Arduino+motors would be similar and perhaps even more fun). From there, yes Python is great. But I'd specifically recommend then playing with the built-in \"turtle\" library. (\"from turtle import *; forward(90);\") Once they're \"hooked\", then move on to more practical topics.", "group_id": 95, "id": 446013}, {"user_id": 11927, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301156920.5720439, "message": "Java then PHP without a doubt", "group_id": 95, "id": 446431}, {"user_id": 8539, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301236650.3586631, "message": "+1 - Python + Zed Shaw's learn python the hard way.. Python is a beaufitul language and does not let you write wrong code", "group_id": 95, "id": 451209}, {"user_id": 22319, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301238235.448271, "message": "actually the language doesn't matter, if you don't have any concrete project in mind \u2026 so learn and have fun first http://pragprog.com/titles/ltp2/learn-to-program", "group_id": 95, "id": 451308}, {"user_id": 22729, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301377808.9878659, "message": "Not terribly", "group_id": 95, "id": 466594}, {"user_id": 22729, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301377803.3623631, "message": "Having spent the last 14 years in code, my vote goes to python. Clean, straightforward syntax. Easy to run line by line from the shell. Notnterribly", "group_id": 95, "id": 466593}, {"user_id": 12963, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301397350.9386671, "message": "An interesting perspective from a Ruby guy ... http://programmingzen.com/2011/03/28/what-programming-language-should-i-learn-first/", "group_id": 95, "id": 468690}, {"user_id": 25530, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301400944.8006649, "message": "Ruby", "group_id": 95, "id": 468990}, {"user_id": 26433, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301435081.206239, "message": "Ruby for web stuff, Python for sysadmins, Obj-C for Mac/C# for Windows.", "group_id": 95, "id": 472819}, {"user_id": 25435, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301443888.8324981, "message": "Does it really matter? I started on basic, then C, then HTML, now java. As long as you stick with it you will learn.", "group_id": 95, "id": 474283}, {"user_id": 12503, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301444440.1124921, "message": "ruby is fun fun fun", "group_id": 95, "id": 474355}, {"user_id": 21389, "stars": [{"date_created": 1301491707.11413, "user_id": 20848}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301449836.9941821, "message": "@joshd Also, while many nasty things could be said of BASIC, HTML is most definitely NOT a programming language.", "group_id": 95, "id": 474949}, {"user_id": 21389, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301449768.763653, "message": "@joshd Yes, I say it does, and I believe most educators would agree. You can certainly 'get over' the fact that you start with a poor language and fix your brain as you go, if you stick to programming. But \u2014 starting with a great language (I also vote for Python) will make it easier to stick with programming, and after a while you'll realise that you're actually pretty good at programming (with Java, most students I helped instruct gave up programming after one term).", "group_id": 95, "id": 474944}, {"user_id": 16719, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301463666.062942, "message": "do javascript and then http://diveintohtml5.org/", "group_id": 95, "id": 478288}, {"user_id": 16123, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301463841.648761, "message": "python", "group_id": 95, "id": 478340}, {"user_id": 20848, "stars": [{"date_created": 1301539759.057864, "user_id": 26320}], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301492238.3848751, "message": "No language recommendation but my two cents: STAY AWAY from any frameworks (e.g. ruby on rails, cakephp, jquery etc.) while you are first learning. People might say \"It's 'easy' to build a site in [framework]\" and this is thruthy, but frameworks are best used to keep you from repeating *stuff you already know how to do.*\n\nBefore you get into something like that, write some fully functioning programs from scratch, then you'll appreciate what the frameworks bring and be able to use them better. It may seem nice to be able to \"code a blog in five minutes\" but if you want to customize something and don't have a firm grasp of the language fundamentals, you're up a creek.  I actually found it detrimental to my learning: after the ease of setting up a CakePHP site my tendency was to \"look for something that does what I need\" or \"ask for help\" because I didn't have enough actual programming chops (or didn't think I did).\n\nDon't try to set up a website (unless you want to).  Just learn the basics, pick some cool fun project you want to do, and learn what you need to learn as you go.  If it's not fun, it's hard to stay with it.\n*my examples relate to web cuz that's what I know.  ditto java etc. frameworks, I assume.", "group_id": 95, "id": 481615}, {"user_id": 20848, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301492391.9743929, "message": "Then again I'm not clever enough to post above without getting it wrapped in <pre> so you can take my advice with a grain of salt. :)", "group_id": 95, "id": 481633}, {"user_id": 25435, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301498609.6069641, "message": "@alexandru haha. What no love for HTML? Kidding. Someone needs to get our education system to wise up. They are teaching all \"old\" languages like java. Students get turned off like you said.", "group_id": 95, "id": 482283}, {"user_id": 26569, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301500494.4460931, "message": "I heard visual basic is good", "group_id": 95, "id": 482504}, {"user_id": 26601, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301507317.247993, "message": "another vote for Python", "group_id": 95, "id": 483463}, {"user_id": 23707, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301512537.779038, "message": "I'd say to learn and clean ness Python. But set up is harder than Php that you can start with one function and learn more", "group_id": 95, "id": 484187}, {"user_id": 26244, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301531900.4885211, "message": "I\u2019ll go against the grain and say Java, it teaches some good habits which will help you greatly if you do any serious server side work. But to be honest start with one you like and then and then keep learning new ones.", "group_id": 95, "id": 486154}, {"user_id": 26244, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301531931.424557, "message": "You\u2019ll find the language/platform that suits you in your own time.", "group_id": 95, "id": 486159}, {"user_id": 21389, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301534330.6260879, "message": "@joshd oh I'm not hating, but HTML is not a programming language, only a markup one.", "group_id": 95, "id": 486516}, {"user_id": 12172, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301551060.405381, "message": "I'll suggest javascript, as all you need is a browser - which you have already, evidently.", "group_id": 95, "id": 489012}, {"user_id": 15141, "stars": [], "topic_id": 9916, "date_created": 1301559825.341022, "message": "I vote for Python", "group_id": 95, "id": 490160}]