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Kenneth Reitz
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[{"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036323.2320261, "message": "trying to solve this with technology won't work, imho\u2014it's a social issue", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989817}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035754.5281229, "message": "my view is this", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989617}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035840.2338641, "message": "i don't care if it breaks stuff. it's not nuclear powerplants, we can fix things.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989643}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035937.5621271, "message": "OK, as a dev who is going to need to bring a web app to iPads, I need to have JS libs to evaluate without hearing a lot of FUD", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989669}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035865.541158, "message": "where is ppk when you need him", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989649}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035318.6661341, "message": "In-fighting helps no one especially over the twitter where everyone is an on-looker. Let's get this straight", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989512}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035501.6304181, "message": "we dont need 1000000 testing libs and 1000000000 assholes", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989549}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035717.6796429, "message": "is more appropriate", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989606}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035737.0484381, "message": "speaking", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989612}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035300.6352921, "message": "Yep, no insults from me", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989505}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035641.779525, "message": "libraries that are \"just big enough\"", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989589}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036269.5155821, "message": "it's too much work on the side of the code author", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989791}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035409.7444119, "message": "but I, for one, am tired of my twitter stream being filled up with crap that looks bad for all involved", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989533}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035832.8589089, "message": "@thomasfuchs ++", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989642}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035460.757719, "message": "I agree with that sentiment. Ruby community is full of that stuff, as well", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989542}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035514.313715, "message": ":)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989553}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035534.970329, "message": "ok, so back to the microlibs. Each microlib is created with assumption that it's being used on what? iOS? Android?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989561}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035575.5069809, "message": "PS I do predict something good will come out of this", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989568}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035817.26035, "message": "so my main point in doing microjs.com is getting more people to actually write and understand and do cool and fun stuff with javascript", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989639}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036043.2146289, "message": "(which btw comes from angry birds)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989718}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035391.264349, "message": "For obvious reasons (IE its still sleepy time PST) this wont get \"heated\" until later", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989527}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035484.1266201, "message": "yup", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989546}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035696.261519, "message": "I guess you don't know if they will step on each other's APIs", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989597}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036487.6250989, "message": "npm could be used now it has local files in v1.0", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989880}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036549.9965529, "message": "(in my opinion)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989917}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036631.4422309, "message": "or any lib", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989961}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036679.4782641, "message": "+1 But at least helpful to classify, rate, monitor project activity etc; spot when there might be conflicts between them (the flip side of dependency)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989987}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035618.7512159, "message": "if it's rarely specified, how can I use zepto or ender or whatever over something like jquery", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989579}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035635.419776, "message": "so zepto says \"only ios\"", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989588}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035642.618525, "message": "mobile ios", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989590}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035709.5952239, "message": "that is correct", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989603}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035800.3051219, "message": "how we have come full circle", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989633}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036537.4199779, "message": "the thing is, there's no need for curated packages for this. javascript makes it trivial to stick several packages together.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989907}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037048.335139, "message": "yes, it is dogmatic.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990126}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037067.407213, "message": "you're welcome to start a mediumjs.com site :D", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990135}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037251.9562931, "message": "you don't need a package manager, if you have a little app that does JSONP and some DOM manipulation.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990188}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037454.0698371, "message": "@voodootikigod i'm opposed to that for several reasons: 1) there's no room in the layout for that, 2) we'd need to update all the READMEs across all projects, 3) we'd need to keep it updated for new versions", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990255}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036012.8876829, "message": "protecting them is one thing, being discrete with works here doesnt work there is another", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989700}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035769.877708, "message": "2. ripe for growth", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989621}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036232.627171, "message": "@thomasfuchs I think that is a great idea uniformly across all libs", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989770}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036247.5405159, "message": "like a req's in package.json", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989774}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036347.7456951, "message": "and go drinking", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989824}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035369.4048159, "message": "Arguments stem from small size does not negate issues with compatibility in the current world.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989524}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035491.4602499, "message": "I am not letting this community fall prey to that", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989548}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035630.723851, "message": "I think we will see a third way:", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989586}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035697.4168179, "message": "OK in firefox except for a single item", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989601}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035714.0807619, "message": "it is \"jquery like\" syntax", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989605}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035900.237042, "message": "i don't buy the argument that people need to be protected from the evil cross-browser deamons, and that only a handful of elite white knights can save them. it's ok for people to mess up. it's called \"learning by mistake\".", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989659}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036035.873486, "message": "also protects you (lib author) from angry tweets", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989712}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035315.258028, "message": "What is the point of microlibs?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989510}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035513.450882, "message": "but enough of bad talking", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989552}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035612.2116139, "message": "which leads to the confusion", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989575}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035612.812525, "message": "monolithic libs on one hand, a clutch of tiny libs on the other", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989576}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035624.6818559, "message": "trial and error?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989582}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035062.4778931, "message": "No takers yet?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989467}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035256.4292059, "message": "is here", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989497}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035285.0768731, "message": "If you are in here, you are here for a frank, open, and non-insulting dialog on microlibs stemming from the out of control twitter thread.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989502}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035341.964772, "message": "I don't understand how people don't understand Twitter is a public forum", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989521}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035345.687757, "message": "@batarski original point is a slimmer library version targeting only modern browsers with assumptions on what is available.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989522}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035556.5151651, "message": "rarely specified", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989564}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037782.6640761, "message": "unfortunately the vocal minority are never in the mostly", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990391}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035701.303128, "message": "@voodootikigod, I've heard on twitter that its compatibility with jquery is not there in the way it's expected", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989602}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035882.7330861, "message": "@voodootikigod, ping him", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989653}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036748.6731851, "message": "it should be WE all have to do it", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990019}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037911.845803, "message": "and want that people effing use JavaScript", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990446}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035684.1315391, "message": "issues include compatibility with browsers, but also with each other", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989594}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036445.6695809, "message": "you don't think there's a role for something like curated package/microlib management?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989858}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036743.1231849, "message": "to clarify @thomasfuchs I dont believe anyone is saying YOU have to do this", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990016}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035655.0648561, "message": "but it says jquery compatibility so there is confusion in there", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989591}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035656.9273951, "message": "(Zepto also OK on Android I think)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989592}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035696.3881459, "message": "OK but not actively supported", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989598}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035722.7827621, "message": "and Fuchs has changed it", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989608}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035738.7051439, "message": "of", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989614}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035761.5207911, "message": "1. not ready for all the world", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989618}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036028.005156, "message": "another company wants an iPhone/iPad/Android compatibility", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989706}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036785.73526, "message": "(Sure I saw a tweet recently along the lines of \"My lib's going to use $$; is anyone using that already?\")", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990037}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036838.5501461, "message": "@thomasfuchs, plus the idea of building higher level libraries on top of existing ones would lead to more code reuse. e.g. express on top of connect", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990053}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037003.1106441, "message": "that relies on underscore", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990101}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037270.1029029, "message": "+1", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990194}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037502.686733, "message": "ok so what if we add a description at the top", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990271}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035737.780458, "message": "if I can't trust it, I won't use it, simple as that", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989613}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036500.6198471, "message": "no but projects do", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989890}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037026.856148, "message": "@codetonowhere i'm thinking of removing backbone because of that; however it's a great example to learn micro-lib-style coding from", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990116}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037427.9128649, "message": "i think clarity is the issue here", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990247}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035750.665817, "message": "well see thats not necessarily the right answer", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989616}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035788.216851, "message": "its at the point where (ironically) the big libs where at the dawn of ajax", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989624}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035862.3639419, "message": "maybe we need a compat chart", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989648}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305107648.2136171, "user_id": 1355}], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035807.18818, "message": "speaking on behalf of a 'monolith' (well, relatively ;-) )... I think you'll see curated modularization being the middle-ground outcome from this black+white argument", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989634}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035813.3893321, "message": "room for all we just need to see all as happy and human", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989637}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036353.897743, "message": "as someone who shares code with others, it's just the right thing to do to list what you support (or plan to) in your README", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989826}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036257.0186219, "message": "no, i don't think that works", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989779}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036389.7012789, "message": "however, passive agressive angry tweets like from @tomdale are unacceptable: \"It would be okay if the community was upfront about the limitations. Microjs does nothing to help me pick among the options.\"", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989839}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036398.6518281, "message": "that helps no one :(", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989844}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036428.7877491, "message": "meh", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989852}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036433.0429981, "message": "read http://tomdale.net/2011/04/imagine-a-beowulf-cluster-of-javascript-frameworks/", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989854}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036625.216454, "message": "where people just believe car blanche what the title is", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989956}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036640.290175, "message": "and that is arguably a mess as well", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989966}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036645.5830891, "message": "insanity", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989970}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036668.4283111, "message": "and hope for the best :)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989979}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305035962.3399911, "message": "just ipad?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989679}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036007.425904, "message": "for now, for one company, yeah", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989697}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036015.4008131, "message": "middle ground", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989701}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036150.3555181, "message": "@thomasfuchs you do quite a good job of clearly saying only supports X, Y, and Z, platforms", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989748}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036154.2062471, "message": "others dont", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989749}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036211.8097961, "message": "or maybe which modernizr (for eg) props are required", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989764}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036240.2971489, "message": "list the expected working conditions", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989772}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036259.8563831, "message": "hahah", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989784}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036264.508441, "message": "or not", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989789}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036336.415736, "message": "which is why I hope to draw everyone into a room", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989821}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036342.8388901, "message": "fight it the eff out", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989822}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036352.070528, "message": "come in as angry mob", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989825}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036168.1760831, "message": "the websites of big frameworks list (roughly) where they work, but don't go into very many details either (until you dig deeper). however, i think it's really something that microlib authors, or any lib/framework authors actually, need to list in their READMEs.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989754}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036278.8273921, "message": "it's not too much work to write a sentence in the readme", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989795}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036493.5455871, "message": "its the same old arguments", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989884}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036582.4439991, "message": "but without package management of some sort it would be impossible to maintain imo", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989934}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036605.6092839, "message": "never look (or know) of potential compat issues", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989943}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036609.790452, "message": "thus going back to social issue", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989947}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036784.7485869, "message": "@thomasfuchs, but what about projects using them?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990035}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037038.7899001, "message": "just seems quite dogmatic to say libraries should have NO dependencies", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990122}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037113.7470601, "message": "don't get me wrong\u2014i'm using \"normal\" libs all the time, like Prototype, Raphael, etc.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990152}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036370.5993769, "message": "agree, but not all do that.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989830}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036399.1421161, "message": "tomdale?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989845}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036624.980593, "message": "yeah, but they do the same thing with jquery", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989954}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036643.9186809, "message": "jquery plugins", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989968}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036652.7163811, "message": "you can't save dumb people from themselves by using technology :)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989972}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036677.168746, "message": "you can make it easier for them though with technology", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989983}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036723.819073, "message": "a standard way of defining dependencies and installing them would solve a lot of problems people see with this", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990010}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036755.4210269, "message": "you have the great front end for it", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990024}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038003.9328761, "message": "you do that, and I will take as an action to write up an article that expounds on it", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990472}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036597.4979241, "message": "i believe the concern (from jdalton though I dare not speak for him) is that people will see \"AWESOMEEVENTLIBRARY\" and just go ok, thats awesome event library", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989940}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036451.799382, "message": "making it as easy as possible to download the correct dependencies for a project surely has to be a good thing", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989860}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036490.0776391, "message": "@codetonowhere micro-libs don't have dependencies (ideally)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989882}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036501.657563, "message": "unix vs monolith", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989893}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036518.7908759, "message": "small packages with defined piping versus single app to rule all", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989902}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036557.6578169, "message": "i love the idea of small focused libraries (micro-frameworks, whatever)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989921}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036660.596314, "message": "you can educate them", "group_id": 9751, "id": 989977}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036749.7471089, "message": "@codetonowhere most of the libs on microjs.com have no dependencies", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990020}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037521.7195539, "message": "at the bottom :)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990278}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037669.4876029, "message": "ok well sounds like a great intro to microlib article at a minimum", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990347}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037051.762466, "message": "by design.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990129}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037185.2465079, "message": "@thomasfuchs agree... exactly. \"Just big enough for *my* app and no bigger\"", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990169}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037532.88448, "message": "yes it is, but needs a button up top", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990287}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036796.1805589, "message": "and if there are conflicts between two microlibs, it's actually most probably a bug", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990040}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037811.8006859, "message": "i can write an article about how i tried using jquery to change colors on lynx and it didnt' work", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990402}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037758.871176, "message": "in places where it clearly was never intended to work", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990382}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036993.1225231, "message": "@thomasfuchs backbone is in microjs though", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990099}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037106.443167, "message": "haha", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990149}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037208.5532391, "message": "i.e. a lib package based on dependencies identified in the app itself", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990180}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037364.303894, "message": "I am not sure the package manager is the \"right tool\" for this task", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990227}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037395.9080369, "message": "just so people get a clear picture", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990238}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037430.895962, "message": "more than anything", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990248}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037867.6451559, "message": "let's try this: i'll add some info to the blurb on the bottom of the page\u2014about how you need to read the READMEs for supported platforms, and better yet the source.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990423}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037877.6826539, "message": "beautiful", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990426}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037902.286643, "message": "or ignored", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990439}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037934.359643, "message": "@batasrki also, it's kind of a bad example, because it's generated javascript", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990455}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036970.5311279, "message": "@codetonowhere i don't see microlibs as something to build higher level libs on top of, actually.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990093}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305036983.4106951, "message": "if you do, you probably want to fork/merge", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990098}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037010.3958881, "message": "forking is super easy now in the days of t3h github", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990106}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037220.2400441, "message": "and no others", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990183}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037739.504602, "message": "just need ot set expectations", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990375}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037761.5202639, "message": "but it mostly works :)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990383}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037517.380681, "message": "be sure to ....", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990276}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037563.42031, "message": "No, I disagree. I'll only add that when jquery, sproutcore, etc. add this.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990301}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037102.067852, "message": "hasn't got quite the same ring to it unfortunately", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990148}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037147.2409871, "message": "@jamesgpearce there is no such thing. people have different needs.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990163}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037785.8701749, "message": "else not minority", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990394}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037881.0842249, "message": "which will help people anyhow", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990427}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037887.3978939, "message": "because as you and I have talked", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990429}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037126.726774, "message": "justrightjs.com", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990157}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037131.5270729, "message": "and microjs.com actually uses no libs whatsoever, sometimes i prefer pure js", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990160}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037513.2976661, "message": "that says libraries do not seek full compatibility all teh time everywhere", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990273}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037535.9045341, "message": "says \"read this first\"", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990288}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037364.403882, "message": "you never technically need a pacjage manager. But if it works well, allows you to explicitly define dependencies etc. then why would that not be a good thing?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990228}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037380.5995679, "message": "what if we could pull the \"works for X, Y, Z\" string in the readme up into microjs.com", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990231}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037384.7750421, "message": "(can fork and add)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990233}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037393.6944101, "message": "surely better than copying and pasting from source files which is a pretty common way to share js", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990235}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037394.3392999, "message": "i'd go so far and say that if you actually need a package manager because it's so complex to manager, for a client-side web app, probably something is wrong", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990236}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037479.913636, "message": "people can just click the thing in microjs.com and they see the readme then and there and can, well, read the README :)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990263}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037580.964467, "message": "it's not the purpose of microjs.com to educate people of their bad reading habits.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990309}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037748.410037, "message": "to avoid the \"well eff this crap it doesnt work\"", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990379}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037546.5599639, "message": "you know and I know people dont read bottom text", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990291}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037552.360606, "message": "hell they dont even read source these days", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990293}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037905.0908799, "message": "what's stopping handlebars from being included in the list?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990440}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038027.1492219, "message": "talking as we have that the point of a lib is to get back to writing fun little pieces understand and collaborating on the modern stack of JS", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990478}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038038.2139511, "message": "not all microlibs support all use cases", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990482}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038272.473202, "message": "i don't really care if one of the is 8k", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990561}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038001.4726951, "message": "@thomasfuchs and mustache isn't? Asking seriously.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990471}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037693.503793, "message": "I understand your concern and angle on this, but I don't think at self-detrimental statement is a good introduction\u2014It's really all about fun and discovery.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990358}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038060.0634999, "message": "(re: readme you should be doing anywho)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990495}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038062.7883601, "message": "and source", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990496}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038138.0537469, "message": "deal", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990522}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038150.256422, "message": "i can fork and PR it", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990525}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037774.719625, "message": "mostly works for most of the people most of the time", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990390}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038084.3668959, "message": "@voodootikigod Can you write a little blurb? I'd be happy to include it.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990498}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038262.604394, "message": "ok, maybe i've confused the goals of microjs, but to me the important thing is small, collaborative libraries that have a single focus", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990558}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037785.121742, "message": "exactly like most code", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990393}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037893.7246671, "message": "that's the whole point, i think", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990435}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037734.829464, "message": "not saying make a self-detrimental statement", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990371}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037898.707226, "message": "and way too often overlooked", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990437}, {"user_id": 28525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037908.7607939, "message": "mustache is there", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990442}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038101.8152261, "message": "i'd prefer to see libraries selected on their small focus rather than cut off at some arbitrary file size", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990505}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039824.2442751, "message": "well I know u do wut u want. Just saying it would help devs", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990976}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040026.713485, "message": "1 lib that's modular, that has a common browser compat goal, is easier to ensure consistency than say 15 diff projects.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991039}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038042.2147009, "message": "be sure to read the readme", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990485}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038046.928911, "message": "and most importantly", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990487}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038047.960427, "message": "have fun", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990488}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037979.3074961, "message": "@batasrki sizzle is also not on there, too large (twss)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990464}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038164.5927491, "message": "@codetonowhere it's an arbitrary limit, but there needs to be one; and 5k seemed about right.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990529}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037891.244993, "message": "the source is a great learning tool", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990433}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305037922.2368879, "message": "@batasrki >5k min+gzip", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990451}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039868.5715051, "message": "not for all use cases", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990989}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040207.9274521, "message": "I think MooTools was even submitted to microjs :D", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991097}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305039634.4859691, "user_id": 32804}], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038556.043505, "message": "i just mean that size seems quite an unsophisticated way of selecting libraries. Modularity is the important thing.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990677}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039626.6417379, "message": "js5k would be fun tho. :)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990939}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305038419.4023991, "message": "so", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990632}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039805.6460769, "message": "@jdalton it's \"micro\" js, please accept this fact. this won't change.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990968}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039428.1761751, "message": "and MIT-licensed (or equiv.)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990893}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040025.0957301, "message": "lets try with out \"knee jerk\"", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991038}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039413.7062321, "message": "plus, as the README says, \"Prefer hand-coded/hand-optimized JavaScript over generated/cross-compiled code\".", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990891}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039316.2048459, "message": "(someone better fix the ajax!)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990865}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039315.2724481, "message": "what were they", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990864}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039747.9144521, "message": "and the onus is on me to draft something that conveys both what you are saying", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990956}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039761.0247099, "message": "and the intention", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990960}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039813.5753069, "message": "so for microjs, very pretty site, I dig it, would be nice to have more info than size", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990972}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039736.0364039, "message": "ideally we all get to a happy medium ground of modularity and size", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990954}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039865.4775691, "message": "that this is more for people in experiment phase at the momeny", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990988}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039880.7917321, "message": "and to read the readme for exact compatibilty specifications", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990995}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039298.69029, "message": "i think convore swallowed my two last lines", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990855}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039308.375752, "message": "yes", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990859}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039362.3021121, "message": "Wanted to say\u2014I do care that the limit is 5k, because my goal is to get people to look at the source and have a good chance at understanding it", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990879}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039679.633652, "message": "I agree with \"@codetonowhere i just mean that size seems quite an unsophisticated way of selecting libraries. Modularity is the important thing.\"", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990948}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039769.203109, "message": "i said onus", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990962}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039705.137547, "message": "focusing on size only kinds brings things back to 2005", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990949}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039957.2347529, "message": "I think wut I said was reasonable and is pretty common sense", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991019}, {"user_id": 32809, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041435.5425811, "message": "Dude, it's his project. HE does what he wants with it.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991438}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042177.877223, "message": "@tomdale luckily I have written no such library", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991634}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041244.358531, "message": "then go into read not just the readme but the source", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991392}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039525.54263, "message": "It's interesting to hear that the focus is on education - I think that's a cool philosophy", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990921}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039577.8057611, "message": "(although as a lib author I might be tempted to write dense, impenetrable code to beat the 5k ;-) )", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990925}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039588.069272, "message": "this isn't js5k", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990927}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040687.9294989, "message": "+1", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991202}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041952.5591199, "message": ":)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991566}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041985.559098, "message": "sometimes you just have to pick and run", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991580}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042220.9003689, "message": "fat-fingered my too", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991640}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039604.918685, "message": "actually, code compressed better if it's not dense and impenetrable :)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990930}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039727.6412041, "message": "forget functionality, compatibility, consistency, but gimme that sweet file size", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990952}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039751.2512829, "message": "minifiers, compilers, they do their job", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990957}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040578.5015521, "message": "what", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991173}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039564.213201, "message": "@jdalton", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990923}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039610.272212, "message": "true", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990931}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039851.667191, "message": "ok so we are going to write sort of an intro", "group_id": 9751, "id": 990983}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039902.0099521, "message": "thomas agreed to put something clear that can say what are micro libs, see the intro!", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991002}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039908.9240229, "message": "arguably better worded", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991004}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305039923.521456, "message": "so I guess this started with my tweet \"@SubtleGradient Framework modules == great. Tons of independent microlibs == compat nightmare. Uniform enviro compat is key. Compat > Size.\"", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991007}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041346.413204, "message": "make sense?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991418}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041362.9821701, "message": "tread with care", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991425}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041092.1098089, "message": "readme", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991334}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041215.141073, "message": "also", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991377}, {"user_id": 32809, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041714.1940069, "message": "If so, it would be called modularjs or something.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991518}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042655.274579, "message": "@tomdale ...perhaps even conditionally using the best module for the job on a per-browser basis", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991747}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041354.6912451, "message": "world changes", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991423}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040103.9710159, "message": "it accomplishes the same goal of `give devs only wut they need` and not the kitchen sink.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991059}, {"user_id": 32809, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040778.8238909, "message": "How was this conversation more useful here than on twitter?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991227}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041228.5189309, "message": "thats why i said the right way", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991382}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041230.649761, "message": "or proper way", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991384}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041260.5487881, "message": "as you might be inclinded to do with a larger framework", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991397}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041393.329771, "message": "i believe", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991431}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040669.8573229, "message": "no, not at all. (not the concern)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991197}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040872.4825771, "message": "i dont believe it is over yet", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991251}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040967.757529, "message": "and in there describe that the right way of doing things is building small tight and loosely coupled components that can be assembled", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991285}, {"user_id": 32809, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041652.1832459, "message": ":)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991505}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040642.9254661, "message": "@jdalton lton so is the concern that mootools isnt in there (me confused)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991189}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040681.521548, "message": "(ot: convore seems like a lossy medium)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991200}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040702.3364379, "message": "adds flavor", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991206}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041203.1842351, "message": "also I want to get the ender guys and jdalton to at least chat and I am confident to say that jdalton is not how they made him out to be", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991371}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040936.224534, "message": "so @jdalton if we can get better description, (And I would love the assist if you are in for it) about what the intent of microjs is (in that it is not an end-all, be-all replacement for larger established frameworks)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991278}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040970.0427001, "message": "like unix tools", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991286}, {"user_id": 32809, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041599.844075, "message": "The former.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991495}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041950.163785, "message": "point", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991562}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041970.78741, "message": "much like the long term solution for promotejs.com is world wide domination, I have to start with just MDN docs", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991573}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041977.6361639, "message": "Unsure why my tweet was characterized as passive-aggressive and angry as it was neither of those things.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991577}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042127.792743, "message": "whatever", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991615}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041351.8045721, "message": "IE this is still new ground", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991422}, {"user_id": 32816, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042559.0356021, "message": "And unless modules are meant to be interoperable, we're going to see a lot of redundancy because none will be dependent on any other, so there will be a lot of duplication in simple \"core level\" helpers", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991717}, {"user_id": 32809, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040872.816493, "message": "Oops, no longer meant to post that.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991252}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040997.881768, "message": "he was in here before", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991297}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040999.3397729, "message": "napping now", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991300}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041207.9913869, "message": "would bet my life", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991373}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041390.233778, "message": "and most importantly (and this was Thomas' main argument) read the damn source, thats why its size scoped", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991430}, {"user_id": 32809, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305040984.928478, "message": "Here are my thoughts: 1) microjs is @thomasfuchs's project. As such he can do what he want with it. I happen to agree with some parts it, disagree with others, but that's his call, not mine.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991293}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041085.3605969, "message": "we had a discussion that it should be made known upfront what the intended compatibility is thomas believes that should be in the readme and all should read the readme of the library they are using as good practice", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991330}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041095.909282, "message": "i had to add it once more", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991335}, {"user_id": 32809, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041942.0615511, "message": "err. Common JS modules !?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991560}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041951.2200179, "message": "match", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991563}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041214.7479219, "message": "but not sure if that is the focus of microjs", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991376}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041237.3355031, "message": "microjs is not necessarily that focus", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991387}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041356.2590671, "message": "things change", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991424}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041366.5756049, "message": "and understanding", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991426}, {"user_id": 32809, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041035.682287, "message": "2) cross-browser compatibility is not always a concern.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991311}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041080.4554801, "message": "I agree with @tobie", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991325}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041250.8986609, "message": "use them as guide not as blind faith", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991394}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041254.5196731, "message": "can't see why size really plays a part in that. and the aim seems to be removing coupling comletely instead of encouraging loose coupling", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991395}, {"user_id": 32816, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042496.5799699, "message": "I like the idea of modular frameworks, where individual pieces can be used as-needed to give more or less functionality, but is the number of bytes saved in a smaller download really offsetting the fact that your ad-hoc framework isn't going to be in anyone's browser cache already?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991711}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041204.444519, "message": "@voodootikigod i completely agree with this \"the right way of doing things is building small tight and loosely coupled components that can be assembled\"", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991372}, {"user_id": 32809, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041637.936878, "message": "And since when do you talk about yourself at the 3rd peson?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991502}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041936.4154301, "message": "but that long term is not the current target of microjs", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991558}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042041.397094, "message": "to clarify", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991590}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042106.2907269, "message": "so part of that", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991604}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042221.3623779, "message": "Here's why I'm frustrated", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991641}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042332.458118, "message": "IMO we need to do everything we possibly can to compete against iOS development; the tooling is already much better", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991667}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041650.635005, "message": "sure, but i think focusing on size makes it seem like the only reason to use small libraries", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991504}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041586.820514, "message": "@tobie is that in response to @codetonowhere or @voodootikigod", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991491}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041652.7336299, "message": "where i feel there's more benefit in being able to swap out modules, not that i'm saving a few kilobytes", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991507}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041976.9571979, "message": "people get upset that its the MDN docs", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991576}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041980.1730959, "message": "or that it has a dragon", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991578}, {"user_id": 32816, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042688.217963, "message": "And the cost of using something that isn't tested in all browsers, isn't maintained by a team of developers, and wasn't designed to play well with others.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991751}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041417.1851039, "message": "that seems like a pretty flimsy reason to restrict size imo", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991436}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041785.204278, "message": "@tobie more than you know :)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991537}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042247.9681351, "message": "I've spent the last couple months talking to application developers (and let me clarify, I don't mean people sprinkling jQuery onto a webpage)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991649}, {"user_id": 32809, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041696.235826, "message": "@codetonowhere I agree with you. But that's not @thomasfuchs's opinion, nor is that what microjs is about.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991515}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041910.800113, "message": "thomas is very big on using these micro libs to get people thinking about how one would write a library - he uses zepto for his courses (to much success) and it is great for people to do this. as mentioned the long term solution would be microjs libs that can plug together as needed using a yet undefined API (maybe someday) much like the selector api and sizzle/etc", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991554}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305041953.0315969, "message": "@tobie yeah, of course. but i think those aims need to be made more clear.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991567}, {"user_id": 32809, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042006.9251449, "message": "or duck.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991584}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042015.1732509, "message": "no offense, I thought it was meh :)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991585}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042027.247596, "message": "Let me clarify: *There is nothing wrong with small frameworks.*", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991588}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042040.2446599, "message": "which is why i wanted to get everyone in a single room", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991589}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042065.169378, "message": "I might be totally out of my mind, but the common refrain of \"pick the right tool for the job\" usually ends up being interpreted as \"pick the right tool for the job as long as it's this JS lib I just wrote\"", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991597}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042093.081214, "message": "I'm totally okay for their being choice, but I am frustrated by the common belief that anything over XXk filesize is immediately unsuitable", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991601}, {"user_id": 15358, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042443.850076, "message": "But I know many developers who would have given up", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991696}, {"user_id": 15358, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042472.0949409, "message": "Especially more backend focused developers, who are trying to get into front-end development", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991706}, {"user_id": 32797, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042616.690208, "message": "@cowboy that's exactly what i'd like to see. Eliminating dependencies completely seems pointless", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991734}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042911.3433969, "message": "@tomdale exactly... there will be a 'third way'", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991802}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042046.6387761, "message": "twitter spirals out of control", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991592}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042114.0120471, "message": "I think we will eventually have a Rails for JavaScript, it will be 50k, and that's alright", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991606}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042126.625248, "message": "or 200K", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991613}, {"user_id": 32816, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042527.011389, "message": "Also, unless each individual module always supports all the latest browsers, isn't it going to be really hard to keep track of what the lowest common denominator browser will be? I mean, a grid might be helpful to start.. but that would get really unwieldy, really fast.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991714}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042112.003325, "message": "is my responsibility going forward", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991605}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042125.489295, "message": "or 100K", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991612}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042266.6431921, "message": "and I've talked to people who have bought into the \"smaller is better\" is ideal", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991652}, {"user_id": 32816, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042650.9497769, "message": "We, as a community, need to get it into people's heads that they should REALLY care about support.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991745}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042822.5230119, "message": "I predict modularity & compatibility & support will turn out more important than size... But the good news is that the latter will be a natural side effect of the former. Everyone wins.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991777}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042199.471071, "message": "and am far to incapable to ever do so", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991639}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042873.519784, "message": "@jamespearce I think it's all a bit of a temptest in a teapot, since \"microlibs\" will grow and add features and big guys will try to shrink and become more modular, and one day we'll look around and realize we're all on the same team", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991790}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042283.9361269, "message": "but they don't have the time to be involved, or to read all of the source code, as some people here were suggesting", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991656}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042305.6534221, "message": "it puts them off web development in general", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991663}, {"user_id": 15358, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042432.874176, "message": "To @tomdale's point, I've been using a few micro frameworks and have run into bugs and have fortunately have the time / motivation to fix the bugs and submit patches", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991688}, {"user_id": 25081, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042706.7102139, "message": "@cowboy PS it's a good thing that larger frameworks are also engaged in these discussions. I like the sense that everyone's trying to figure it out. Don't need the us-and-them stuff.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991754}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042819.590596, "message": "substitute jQuery for whatever >5k library you'd like", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991776}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042298.033699, "message": "so when they run into compatibility issues or bugs they can't fixed, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991660}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042600.918776, "message": "@cowboy I suspect most larger frameworks unit tests across their supported browser matrix, and don't land a module until it works across all of them", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991729}, {"user_id": 32816, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042617.6376181, "message": "It seems like a great idea, but a jumbled mess of ad-hoc crap developed by people who suffer from NiH and don't play well with others doesn't bode well for support", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991735}, {"user_id": 32815, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305042827.794678, "user_id": 32804}], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305042798.3493979, "message": "I don't begrudge smaller frameworks at all and I'm *glad* we have them around. But it's actually harmful to market something as \"jQuery in 1/10th the code!\" unless you're also upfront that it has 1/10th the bug fixes and compatibility.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 991771}, {"user_id": 32832, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305050896.275471, "message": "i try as a rule not to be awake before 10:30", "group_id": 9751, "id": 993730}, {"user_id": 32832, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305051582.7352879, "message": "In some ways I think i'm in a unique position -- being both a mootools team member (a point which i'm not sure dalton has realized) and also developing on many of the microlibs @jdalton roasted yesterday. I feel like there are 2 points I'd like to address. First, daltons video pitting mootools against microlibs. This was probably the lamest single thing i've ever seen produced by anyone in the entire js community. So congrats to dalton. No one who's making libs is trolling the over 100 open mootools bugs... No one is creating videos showing how mootools 1.3.1 fails when doing next sibling selectors, where qwery doesn't fail. And most importantly, no one is laughing at others work. Frankly, that just made dalton look like an arrogant asshole -- and in my eyes hurts the community quite a bit.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 993884}, {"user_id": 32832, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305052363.5134151, "message": "The second thing... is the role of microlibs at large... if you've been in the mootools dev irc, you'd see that over the past few weeks there has been more exciting conversation about increasing modularity in mootools then there has been ever. As a conversation starter alone, i think the development of microlibs is incredibly important! mootools xhr doesn't need to depend on htmlelement.... mootools/class should be standalone... etc. That's awesome to me, and wouldn't be happening if it weren't for the recent push of microlibs. What's more, the pace at a microlevel has been, and will likely continue to always be faster than macro. How long did we have micro libs which took care of promises before jquery added them? How long did we have delegation hacks, jsonp, etc. before larger libraries pulled them in. Micro libs will become more stable -- underscore comes to mind... but give them some time. The libraries that dalton through under a bus yesterday were literally weeks old. Give them time -- be constructive -- or at least respectful of other developers and the work they're producing and putting out. No one is getting paid for this... this *is* opensource.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 994087}, {"user_id": 32816, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305056024.7038381, "message": "IMO, in order for it to be effective, it needs to be an actual conversation", "group_id": 9751, "id": 994930}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305054155.971705, "message": "> First, daltons video pitting mootools against microlibs. This was probably the lamest single thing i've ever seen produced by anyone in the entire js community\n\nIt wasn't about Moo vs microlibs. It was showing that 1 framework with uniform support can be, either through modules/custom builds, used to reduce size while at the same time keeping consistent browser support easier than mushing a bunch of independent libs together.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 994512}, {"user_id": 32816, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305054912.044245, "message": "so instead of this being a conversation, it's just long monologue drive-bys with CLJ-style per-point responses", "group_id": 9751, "id": 994658}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305054482.9433789, "message": "> No one is getting paid for this... this *is* opensource.\n\nThat isn't a banner to release non-tested poorly supported code. Your libs happened to make the real world point about xbrowser consistency concerns in mircolibs vs mainstream modular/customizable libs.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 994563}, {"user_id": 32816, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305054918.304251, "message": "medium fail", "group_id": 9751, "id": 994662}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305055974.7973261, "message": "it was heated for a bit", "group_id": 9751, "id": 994911}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305055985.7452669, "message": "and positive for a bit", "group_id": 9751, "id": 994914}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305055993.4764249, "message": "i was just eating at the negative", "group_id": 9751, "id": 994919}, {"user_id": 32816, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305056049.238786, "message": "and not a point-by-point teardown of super-long rants", "group_id": 9751, "id": 994938}, {"user_id": 2042, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305056062.804399, "message": "for that all parties need ot be here", "group_id": 9751, "id": 994943}, {"user_id": 32816, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305056134.5970149, "message": "Make it happen!", "group_id": 9751, "id": 994961}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305056469.5291369, "message": "I <3 skype!", "group_id": 9751, "id": 995027}, {"user_id": 32852, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305065590.50738, "message": "@fat > mootools 1.3.1 fails when doing next sibling selectors\nMooTools 1.3.2 was just released to fix this regression. It was actually much more of an edge case than I originally thought. 58,000+ assertions wasn't enough, but now we have a few more ;)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 996750}, {"user_id": 32852, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305067915.633769, "message": "People like @kangax, @jdalton and @SubtleGradient (its'a me!) have zero tolerance for bugginess. That perspective has born fruit in projects like Slick.js and its extremely massive and modular test suite that has helped other selector engine projects improve.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 997162}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305067328.7151699, "message": "@SubtleGradient Wow. Thank you. <3", "group_id": 9751, "id": 997037}, {"user_id": 32852, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305067522.1063941, "message": "Extreme modularity is the future.\n\nMooTools lead by example for many years, but has stalled out.\nNode.js & NPM are now leading the revolution.\n\nThings like Dojo 1.6, Ender and browserify by @substack are some of the first fruits of this new revolution.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 997069}, {"user_id": 32852, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305066637.256429, "message": "@fat > no one is laughing at others work. Frankly, that just made dalton look like an arrogant asshole\n\n@jdalton does come across like that much of the time. He made himself known to the me and MooTools community in general a long time ago by commenting on our github commits and bluntly pointing out our performance issues and bugs. It REALLY bothered me for a long time. And he just wouldn't stop, no matter how much people hated him for it.\n\nEventually I finally started listening to what he was trying to tell us. And then a REALLY long time after that his bluntness and aggressively tact-challenged nature stopped bothering me.\n\nBecause of him I have since become a much better coder. In my entire programming career, the two most influential people are @kamicane (creator of MooTools) and @JDalton.\n\nAfter I got to know him I finally realized that he really does have the best intentions. He has zero tolerance for bugginess and isn't afraid to call people out on it. I do wish he'd learn to express his passion for excellence without causing all these crap storms though ^_^", "group_id": 9751, "id": 996934}, {"user_id": 32852, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305067672.0169959, "message": "This is like 2005 all over again. And just like back in 2005, the new microlibs like Sizzle, Slick.js, Qwery and \u00c9mile are going to be buggy for the first few weeks and months of their lives. Slick.js has REALLY stabilized over the past year or so by focusing insanely on TDD and have zero tolerance for bugginess and inaccuracy of any kind.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 997107}, {"user_id": 32852, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305068218.190995, "message": "I also recently completely rewrote the DOMReady implementation in MooTools as a MicroLib using a TDD approach. @jdalton was absolutely essential in discovering all the bizarre edge cases that needed fixing. Srsly, DOMReady is HARD! Cf. https://github.com/mootools/mootools-core-specs/blob/master/1.3client/Utilities/DOMReady.php", "group_id": 9751, "id": 997228}, {"user_id": 32852, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305068901.126462, "message": "@voodootikigod uh, yeah. Sorry about that \ue058", "group_id": 9751, "id": 997346}, {"user_id": 32852, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305068487.1874659, "message": "@jdalton don't let this rare moment of praise go to your head, you really do come across as a totally hateful troll much of the time. Maybe you should hire a PR guy to re-word everything you write so that it'll have the effect on people that you intend ;)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 997280}, {"user_id": 32852, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305068279.6281791, "message": "I really hate that the other MooTools d00dz wanted me to make the new DOMReady require MooTools Element and Event modules. That's totally unnecessary and stupid imho. Standalone MicroLibs FTW!", "group_id": 9751, "id": 997240}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305080934.9398291, "message": "Heh @SubtleGradient, a bit over the top, but point taken :P", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1000101}, {"user_id": 32832, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305094161.062871, "message": "@SubtleGradient the point about the mootools is that it was an old version of mootools, which was then patched... similar to how there was a bug in my events lib, which was quickly patched (but then flamed by dalton)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1002643}, {"user_id": 32832, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305093948.6625421, "message": "@jdalton -- you staged a failing tests against an old version of my lib \"to make [your] real world point about xbrowser consistency...\" ... and then (@SubtleGradient) proceeded to laugh about it failing in firefox 3.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1002610}, {"user_id": 32832, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305093987.1535859, "message": "I remember dalton trolling the github commits", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1002617}, {"user_id": 32895, "stars": [{"date_created": 1305139919.947829, "user_id": 32804}], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305102264.111887, "message": "Intent is paramount here, it's just all too easy to attribute negative sentiments on blunt straightforward text communication and thusly call people arrogant. Fact is, @jdalton submitted bugs and tries to warn people on the instability of micro frameworks and rightly so. Choosing too buggy software as a developer and finding out too late can cost us money. Micro frameworks are usually all too shady about which browsers they support and commonly blatantly lie about stability. In the advent of this conversation, I've seen an other worse kind of arrogance, namely ignoring bug reports and complaining about submitters. That gentlemen, is the worst kind of arrogance so in that light, I find this debate misleading and unjust...", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1003721}, {"user_id": 32895, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305102562.1920891, "message": "Now i've done it myself as well =P Coders are obviously proud of what they write and their intent to help other developers out by releasing their tools is admirable, but please don't let your pride get in the way of developing/releasing GOOD software and listen to the people who try to help you with bug reports, however they come across. All too often bugs that have been fixed ages ago in other frameworks resurface in these new \"micro frameworks\" once every blue moon... At least steal properly rather then creating poorly.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1003802}, {"user_id": 32816, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305127318.9080019, "message": "@SubtleGradient I've been trying to help him, but he refuses to listen :)", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1008929}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305136952.163115, "message": "@BenGerrissen +1 you nailed it. Thanks.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1011345}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305137802.9574881, "message": "@fat \"I remember dalton trolling the github commits\", I've been very patient and helpful in my github comments. I give failing tests when needed and take the time to explain things without resorting to name calling. I'm sorry you got your feelings hurt. I just happened to choose your project because it illustrated the issue of cross-browser consistency when mixing microlibs. I'm glad you fixed the bug, but that doesn't change the fact that the problem (consistent xbrowser support between microlibs) exists and devs should be aware of it.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1011527}, {"user_id": 32832, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305183412.3054669, "message": "@BenGerrissen who's ignoring bug reports?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1021154}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305224202.160954, "message": "\"a jumbled mess of ad-hoc crap developed by people who suffer from NiH\" \u2014 I don't think this discussion is going anywhere with statements like that", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1027222}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305224335.172015, "message": "If you think bugs put people of web development in general; then why is web development so popular?", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1027260}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305224238.2885239, "message": "\"have zero tolerance for bugginess\"", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1027235}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305224382.2029021, "message": "And calling microlibs \"ad-hoc crap\" is just spitting in the face of JavaScript devs that want to write awesome code and make a diffrence.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1027279}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305224280.085135, "message": "\"when they run into compatibility issues or bugs they can't fixed, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. it puts them off web development in general.\"", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1027247}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305224499.327811, "message": "I'd be happy to discuss; but I don't think there's anything left to.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1027315}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305224292.6715429, "message": "I'm sorry but that is complete and utter nonsense.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1027251}, {"user_id": 32795, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305224312.67817, "message": "If you have \"zero tolerance\" for bugs, please don't write or use software.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1027254}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305265413.1263821, "message": "http://gyazo.com/aba7ac45d626baa9a564cbb92c0f20a0.png", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1036165}, {"user_id": 32804, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305265400.3533671, "message": "@thomasfuchs I think you may have read some of those responses the wrong way. I'm kinda bummed that you'd rather feign offense than have a discussion. Anyway, on the topic of microjs I hope you'll consider adding more info, like supported browsers, to the site as I could totally see that helping devs craft their mash-ups. You could look to http://plugins.jquery.com/ for inspiration. As more and more microlibs are created devs will need a way to rank and filter them by support and other criteria.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1036164}, {"user_id": 32832, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305267982.0215559, "message": "I think ranking, comments, etc. would be an awesome addition to microjs (if you we're looking for things to do :D", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1036706}, {"user_id": 32895, "stars": [], "topic_id": 34548, "date_created": 1305317843.3519621, "message": "@fat I'd say a lot of frameworks (micro or otherwise) ignore bug reports or don't even have a bug ticket service (which is kind of ignoring). \"ignoring bugs\" is perhaps a wrong point and I should not have mentioned it, it's an too easy but unfair point as it applies to all software.", "group_id": 9751, "id": 1046777}] |