convore.json/groups/nyc-robotics/chat-about-mini-quad-copter/messages.json

[{"user_id": 27662, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304277956.809654, "message": "and http://aeroquad.com/", "group_id": 9523, "id": 877407}, {"user_id": 3019, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304277674.9061151, "message": "building an arduino based one with IR", "group_id": 9523, "id": 877389}, {"user_id": 27662, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304277949.790519, "message": "Here are some of the links we discussed:  \nhttp://www.daedalus.nu/\nhttp://code.google.com/p/arducopter/", "group_id": 9523, "id": 877406}, {"user_id": 31894, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304287242.0600281, "message": "If we get to the stage of building a swarm of these, we can try out a simulator like this to test swarm behaviors: http://www.simplysim.net/index.php?p=products", "group_id": 9523, "id": 878238}, {"user_id": 31894, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304287640.1371579, "message": "And another... http://www.rtdynamics.com/v2/wp/2008/rotorlib-autonomous/", "group_id": 9523, "id": 878318}, {"user_id": 31894, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304287289.1771901, "message": "Supposedly it can simulate a UAV: http://www.simplysim.net/index.php?p=gallery&id=2", "group_id": 9523, "id": 878242}, {"user_id": 31894, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304287403.4004681, "message": "This one looks good too, found on diydrones: http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/uav-playground-12-an-approach", "group_id": 9523, "id": 878259}, {"user_id": 27662, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304368089.8857751, "message": "That hackaday link forum is generating some very high quality info/comments.  Interesting note that they're using motors from silverlit toys, and that the ever-edgy RC groups forum has folks re-building them as coreless motors.  One of them's whipped up a slightly larger hex copter: here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1054541", "group_id": 9523, "id": 888997}, {"user_id": 3019, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304368939.109674, "message": "Had the wrong link http://hackaday.com/2011/04/29/mini-quadrocopter-is-crazy-awesome/", "group_id": 9523, "id": 889213}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304444102.0238681, "message": "More cool work with quadcopters: http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/quadcopters-playing-ping-pong-and.html", "group_id": 9523, "id": 900651}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304449491.17908, "message": "Thanks, Josh for finding those simulators.It looks to me like UAV Playground is likely to be the best free option.  It uses the FlightGear simulator (http://www.flightgear.org/), which is also open source and freely available.  I saw no quadcopter among the standard models provided by FlightGear, but it is possible to create your own models for use in simulation.  I found indications that some others have worked on creating quadcopter FG models.  When I get a chance, I'll look further into how far they've gotten and what's involved in creating FG models in general.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 901883}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304449596.391407, "message": "Oh, I forgot to mention, FlightGear is also cross-platform.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 901910}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304449565.0081849, "message": "It would be nice to have a modelling solution so we can mature control algorithms prior to implementation in precious hardware.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 901906}, {"user_id": 31894, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304510498.4545341, "message": "The two quad copters playing tennis was great. Nice idea using the Kinect sensors as well. Do you know to what extent we can code useful sims in FlightGear?", "group_id": 9523, "id": 912067}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304537374.3929961, "message": "I think UAV Playground / FlightGear will be easily adapted to useful quadcopter sims.  A desirable simulator property that I can't evaluate yet since we haven't made decisions on hardware components would be portability of code between simulation and real hardware environments.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 918374}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304537379.296937, "message": "I've got UAV Playground with FlightGear up and running.  It required a very minor adaptation to work correctly.  I'm reading through the UAV Playground code now.  It looks pretty accessible.  Still on the lookout for an existing FG quadcopter FDM; haven't looked into creating new ones.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 918376}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304537910.8307331, "message": "It's well commented too", "group_id": 9523, "id": 918575}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1304826396.238786, "message": "Moving discussion of simulation to its own thread.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 956201}, {"user_id": 3019, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1305089121.6255169, "message": "http://dvice.com/archives/2011/05/think-quadrocop.php", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1001877}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308145235.6124229, "message": "\nhttp://www.helipilotonline.com/500002 Good quadrotor article\nMickChagnet about 10 hours ago starstar reply message\n\nScroll down for YouTube clips of an octocopter: http://www.robotshop.com/oktokopter-2-fully-loaded-octocopter-uav.html\nMickChagnet about 3 hours ago\n\nN. America UAV restrictions: http://www.robotshop.com/content/PDF/flying-uavs-north-america.pdf\nMickChagnet about 3 hours ago", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1400531}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308407365.4780371, "message": "Multi-rotor table http://multicopter.org/wiki/Multicopter_Table", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1426875}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308454408.6992259, "message": "http://www.meetup.com/volumetric/events/21328851/", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1430002}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308454405.809411, "message": "Another Meetup group is doing an interesting meetup about using the Kinect as a cheap machine vision solution. Could be useful to us in the long run. I'll be going to the event.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1430001}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308662319.8354149, "message": "Quad copter basics explained: http://www.helipilotonline.com/500002", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1448150}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308685705.2138791, "message": "So, what kind of motors are we getting? I've got the X-frame on the way, propellers. and some H Bridge ICs I'll be wiring for whatever the specs are on the motors.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1451435}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308691163.313895, "message": "Here are the specs for those 6V motors I already had. Can we try using those? http://www.evermotor.com/link/dc13.html", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1452361}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308754076.0720301, "message": "I was thinking, while we build a quadcopter, it might be fun to build something like this for eyecandy: http://www.dealextreme.com/p/ufo-style-remote-control-flying-toy-black-orange-6-x-aa-90512. We could improve upon it by making it a sphere and weighting the bottom for balance, and make it effectively a zero-weight ball. (Credit to Ari for posting the link to A1 Convore).", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1457600}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308772774.533942, "message": "Called NYC RC?", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1459698}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308772791.6218641, "message": "Oh, by the way, the", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1459701}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308772824.2094369, "message": "Motors won't work, unless we devise a gear setup for them.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1459704}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308772760.2418079, "message": "Ok, but that's not really a robot - maybe we should form another group,", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1459695}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308772851.3253419, "message": "They're too heavy for their speed otherwise.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1459713}, {"user_id": 3019, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308775594.8332291, "message": "@MickChagnet here is the place I got my motor / battery / charger from http://www.rctimer.com/", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1460170}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308777622.169925, "message": "Great, thanks!", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1460377}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308794421.9687419, "message": "Ben, since you have experience with these parts, could you figure out what motors and speed controllers we'd need and how much it'd cost? If it's prohibitively expensive, perhaps we could look into either scaling back the size of the quadcopter and/or trying to devise a gear system.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1462227}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308829586.202343, "message": "I think, if we can acquire an Air Hogs \"Switchblade,\" for a reasonable price, we could use its parts. I have one I got for about $15. They have small, powerful motors.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1465255}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308836914.4856911, "message": "By parts I assume you mean the gear box and rotors? I just did a quick check on ebay and switchblades are going for ~$40. There seems to be a lot of cheap small brush helicopter motors, but all utilize a gear box.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1466153}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308843305.4071939, "message": "Here's a quadcopter frame with motors and props, no electronics. Not sure the lift capacity though http://www.rctoys.com/rc-toys-and-parts/DF-COMPLETE-AIRFRAME/RC-PARTS-DRAGANFLYER-FRAME.html", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1467175}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308843278.507129, "message": "If we can't find an Air Hog at a reasonable price, here are some motors to comparable helicopters: http://www.rctoys.com/rc-toys-and-parts/K-BR-MM-MTRS-TWO/RC-PARTS-FIREFLY-MICRO-MOSQUITO-ELECTRONICS.html http://www.rctoys.com/rc-toys-and-parts/K-DF-MOTOR-4/RC-PARTS-DRAGANFLYER-MOTORS-GEARS.html", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1467162}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308847436.922272, "message": "Brushless, but we do need something fast & light.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1467855}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308847315.8048069, "message": "Brushless, but we do need light, strong motors. Brushless & ESC will get expensive.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1467835}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308848621.7435589, "message": "I found a set of 2 Switchblades for $30 (after shipping). I spent all my $ on the airframe, H Bridges, & Props.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1468012}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308847187.440167, "message": "I have an airframe already. The switchblade is quite old - I got it on clearance at K Mart. The mosquito is a very small, lightweight copter, & wouldn't provide enough lift. If you can find some good, strong motors that are lightweight, that'd be awesome. I already got us the airframe & 2 sets of propellers. I also have the Ultrasonic \"ping\" sensor & Dual H-Bridges. I don't think we have to go briskness.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1467815}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308848632.684891, "message": "On eBay, that is.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1468016}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308854376.671438, "message": "What exactly do we need from the switchbalde then? Just the motors? Do you know how much lift we would get? For eaxmple, http://www.rc-fever.com/walkera-hmys8001z05-motor-set-v2-p-11148.html?cPath=340_4_574 costs $10/set and 2 sets will lift a 209g helicopter. If you think Switchblades is the way to go, send me the url and I'll purchase them.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1469228}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308856845.2065489, "message": "Also, one thing with using the \"brisk\" helicopter motors is that they all spin fast and are geared down for torque to turn large props. Since we're turning smaller props, in theory we shouldn't have to gear them down, though I don't know if this will make them inefficient.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1469771}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308857445.500463, "message": "I've found a few on eBay for like $4 each, including shipping. We could safely go to 7 or 11 or 12V on batteries. I haven't looked elsewhere, but they look inexpensive.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1469883}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308856519.3131039, "message": "2 sets is 2 motors. Did you find a datasheet for these? What voltage, how much do they weigh?", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1469721}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308856721.933738, "message": "I believe the use 2 motors to drive each prop in opposite direction. The helicopter in question has 2 sets of props. The url says that the shipping weight for a set (2 motors) is 50g. The weight of the helicopter is 209g and it runs on 3.7V (http://www.rc-fever.com/walkera-dragonfly-hm-ys8001-4ch-metal-rc-helicopter-rtf-24ghz-w-lcd-tx-camouflage-green-p-10214.html?cPath=337_145_60).", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1469752}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308857060.552, "message": "There's an eBay store called gogo.rc - they have outrunner brushless motors for under $10 as well. We may be gearing upwards, using brushed motors. Mabuchi is famous for making quality hobby motors... I haven't looked into them.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1469830}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308858432.3306379, "message": "Do you know anything about brushless motor controllers? Will those signifcantly increase the price and complexity (ie time to build)? My preference is to build something fast and cheap, but I don't know if we'd run into issues in the long term with weight and durability.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1470025}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308858648.873085, "message": "Assuming the best case scenario with the brush motors, we could lift 109g of non-motors for about $25 worth of motors.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1470072}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308859806.1211901, "message": "Ben, just checked, and we'd need to get a speed controller for each brushless motor, but we could do everything without gears and lift some serious weight (over a pound easy). If you can find a good set of 4 outrunner brushless motors and speed controllers for under $50 (as much thrust and reliability as possible), send me the url and I'll go ahead and foot the bill myself. There seems to be a lot of good websites that sell these (rc-fever, hobby-king, etc), so you may not need to rely on ebay.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1470355}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308863650.660382, "message": "Psytec recommended http://www.rctimer.com/ . I only recommend the eBay sites because shipping is either free or cheap, & prices are very low. RobotShop has 4-brushless-motor ESCs, but I'm not sure how that works. And that would necessitate lipo batteries, monitors, balanced chargers, etc.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1471226}, {"user_id": 3019, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308865413.449162, "message": "We can get stuff from radio shack if we can put it into how-tos", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1471575}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308883605.3712759, "message": "The difficulty is trying to do a how-to article with those parts when the majority of the quad copter (the most critical stuff at least) was built with non-Radio Shack stuff.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1473761}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308883626.6165161, "message": "Though I was thinking down the road us trying to build and IR positioning system....", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1473766}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308883903.0566771, "message": "I already got the X-frame, propellers, & ultrasonic sensor. I have a Sharp IR proximity sensor, a PIR, & H Bridges. None of which are from Radio Shack. What % has to be RS parts to qualify?", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1473801}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308882059.7155011, "message": "@MickChagnet, do you think you could find the best possible $50 (around that much, up to  $75) setup of brushless motors and ESCs? I'm cool with whatever the source is, so long as the parts don't crap out after a couple uses. I don't want us getting stuck too long on this as the interesting part is the behavior of the vehicle, hence I'm willing to just foot the bill myself. ", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1473593}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308881367.2314501, "message": "Would the entire project need to be made of radio shack parts? I can see up using resistors/sensors from there, but they don't look to have proper motors and related parts.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1473543}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308883541.5120771, "message": "Radio shack has: LEDs, RC toys, Tools, Cameras (for documentation & security cameras possibly for telemetry), & cell phone lipo batteries...", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1473748}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308883345.2418389, "message": "You shouldn't have to spend anywhere near that - the sensors, batteries, & all the weight constraints will be the costly part.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1473737}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308883749.016993, "message": "IR positioning could work w/radio shack parts too.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1473786}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308883554.3508379, "message": "ok, I took a quick look online and it seemed like brushless motors were about $7, ESC $10, but with that setup we could carry over a pound of stuff. Do you mind finding us the right motors and ESC? If not, let me know and I'll try to get to it in the next couple days.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1473751}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308883728.9250419, "message": "Check out http://www.rctimer.com/. Compare to your sources.  We could maybe get an air hog or other plane (or 4) from RS, with batteries & motors.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1473782}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308884643.6020041, "message": "I only see one helicopter on their website. Plus I think it'd be a hard sell to take an existing product and scrap it for parts (vs. using RS components to build something). One thing I noticed about the brushless motors is that they say they do current up to 18 or 30A. We don't need to go that high right- for example what happens if we get a 3A ESC, will that greatly reduce thrust? What Kv, voltage, amp, and resistance are we looking for? Also, what size prop do we have?", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1473880}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308885101.3843629, "message": "On ebay, gogo.rc store has a Mystery Outrunner Brushless Motor 4800KV for $7, & $6 shipping. Dealextreme.com has similar deals. Props are from AR Drone's replacement sets. About 6\"", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1473925}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308936963.4201939, "message": "You've done some homework! I don't have a tremendous amount of experience with Brushless Motors - anybody care to chime in? I'm reluctant to advise you to spend $70+ without any experience.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1478193}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308936420.994638, "message": "Ben, can you take a look and let me know what you think?\nHere's the cheapest (literally, though it also got good reviews) brushless outrunner motor/esc I could find that should suit our needs. \nhttp://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5428\nhttp://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=6457\nAt max, it should produce about 350g thrust per motor (300g subtracting weight of motor and esc).\nTotal cost of 5 motors/esc is $69\n\nCompare to AR Drone:\n15W, 3 cell Lipo Motors\nSpins 3,300 RPM to hover vehicle (motors geared)\nvehicle weight: ~400g\n\nJust to take a look, here's a very cheap Lipo charger for $5\nhttp://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7637\nHere's a battery that would run one of the above motors at max for about 6min. It costs $5.21 and weighs 83g.\nhttp://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=6471\nFor now of course we'll just wire it to a power supply.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1478149}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308936485.85393, "message": "I should also note that the motor is 2000kv, which should be fine for the size of the props (AR Drone gears its own motors to below that rpm)", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1478158}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308939138.2069211, "message": "What I can do is just order one set and we can play with it to make sure it's what we want. They take about a week or two to come from HK (I think).", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1478473}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308943627.8752389, "message": "@paniag, sounds great! I appreciate the offer to help find better prices, but I'm very certain that I've found the lowest- and reviews all gave thumbs up to the parts I selected. The big question I think is whether the specs suit our needs (now and the future) and the parts are \"compatible\" with each other.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1479251}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308942184.3305609, "message": "Received the IMU from Sparkfun yesterday.  It's so tiny!  If we find good motors to use, I can contribute a share of the costs next time we meet.  I don't know about how to select motors, but if you find a particular model I can help run down the best price.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1479004}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308943786.5892811, "message": "Also, FYI, the price of $69 is ridiculously cheap. As a reference, an official AR Drone motor/controller set goes for $44 each, and have less than a third the power (though are 40% more efficient in terms of thrust/W). We'll be paying $14 per set.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1479271}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308944293.5017509, "message": "I'll check my sources for any advice/parts/samples.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1479349}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308946057.902478, "message": "ok, as we need the motors to really get anywhere, let's set a date of end of day Sunday to make a decision. I'll double check the specs and if we can't find some cheaper alternative by then, I'll go ahead and purchase them.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1479726}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308947635.6305001, "message": "@MickChagnet, looks like we won't need the H Bridge anymore (sorry if you've already spent time to build it). The ESC controls the speed via a servo signal transmission: http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/showthread.php?t=16026", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1479998}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308946614.2961271, "message": "OK. sorry, been multitasking since Wed. Will have more focus after this evening.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1479820}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1308947900.0028551, "message": "Yeah, they're handy anyway. Controlling motors always requires an intermediary. They won't go unused.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1480039}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309145812.8029339, "message": "Ok, just ordered the mototrs and esc, should be here within 2 weeks.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1492622}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309189662.337533, "message": "We should inventory what we have collected since last meeting, so we can figure out what we need to do next.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1496484}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309189693.2792909, "message": "Also, here's a cool site: http://airhacks.org", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1496490}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309193670.1387589, "message": "We have: Arduino, IMU, Frame, Propellers. Bought and waiting for: Motors, ESCs. I think with just the Arduino, IMU and Frame we can begin coding. ESCs use the same input signals as servos, so perhaps we could get 4 just to test with (ie, tilt frame, servos should move forward more). Next stuff to buy: RC controller, sensors, positioning system, etc.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1497106}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309206418.860837, "message": "I haven't put any thought into the wireless communication- XBees would be fine I imagine. For V0, we could just directly wire a controller to the arduino.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1499271}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309206651.312861, "message": "I don't know much about the ESCs. My understanding is that you plug a the power source directly into them, and there are three additional input wires that you send a servo transmission over to control the throttle. I do believe that these input wires can also be used to power a servo (the ESC has a BEC rating which is the amount of current that can be diverted to the servo), so we'd have to make sure not to send power to the arduino and burn it out. We could look into all of this during the next meeting", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1499325}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309206338.063518, "message": "By tilt frame, I mean hook up servos to the arduino to simulate the esc. With the arduino and IMU mounted on the frame (or just holding the IMU), tilt it, and the arduino should send the appropriate signals to the servos.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1499250}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309208284.8898311, "message": "Cool. Sounds like a good plan. Looking forward to it.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1499697}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309206890.6242681, "message": "Ok, found a quick link that explains how to use an arduino with an esc/motor: http://www.arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1226292633. So yes, you control esc/motor as through it were a servo, and the position of the servo corresponds to the throttle.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1499389}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309211193.414432, "message": "I set up a meetup for Sat 10am. http://www.meetup.com/NYC-Robotics/events/23671071/ Does that work for you?", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1500292}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309220770.693722, "message": "Yup.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1501285}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309266604.4386899, "message": "@jasonaloy If you can have the datasheet for the ESCs (and maybe motors), it would be great if you could bring it along on Saturday or post a link here.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1505561}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309266390.325413, "message": "I have (only) 3 tiny servos that I can bring as substitutes for the ESCs for very rough visual testing.  I've also worked with the Servo library before and found it very easy to use.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1505533}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309266628.1466811, "message": "By the way, is there a nice oscilloscope sitting around at Alpha One?", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1505567}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309268511.866734, "message": "I recall that someone mentioned they had a variable output wall-wart to use for the motors while we're still tethering.  If you can bring that in, it'll probably come in handy even though we don't have the real motors yet.  No reason to waste battery life if we don't have to.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1505767}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309268876.9531331, "message": "1. I have an arduino and a motor shield (only room for 2 servos I think). The arduino can be powered via usb and the motor shield has a wall plug that can be used. 2. I'll look for the datasheet for the ESCs/motors. 3. There may be additional servos at AlphaOne that we can borrow for the day.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1505807}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309279173.8542211, "message": "My girlfriend told a friend that we were building a quadcopter. Yesterday, said friend approached me as said \"I heard your building a quadrochopper\".", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1507315}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309321011.3976271, "message": "Good article: http://www.helipilotonline.com/500002", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1514743}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309403506.9729271, "message": "Yep, it's pretty good; \"quadrochopper\" is a \"portmantopper\"", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1525001}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309404237.184279, "message": "One good starting point for thought: what is http://www.aeryon.com/products/avs.html missing that leaves DARPA's needs unfulfilled?  Just food for thought.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1525070}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309408723.9767039, "message": "Flight time", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1525458}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309441849.5604081, "message": "www.mikrocontroller.com - Quadrotor Parts Resource", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1528017}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309441992.1163411, "message": "Another: http://shop.quadrocopter.com", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1528032}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309447892.4001889, "message": "CNN did a story on drones, and flew a sample quadcopter http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/06/29/drone.flying.lesson/index.html?hpt=hp_t2", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1528811}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309452210.5259919, "message": "Research paper discussing prop and motor noise http://www.airboatafrika.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/propeller-sound.pdf", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1529525}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309452085.2459681, "message": "I wonder if insulating material like this can be used to dampen motor noise. http://www.dynamat.com/download/2004%20Superlite.pdf. Or is most of the noise coming from the props?", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1529509}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309495093.091208, "message": "http://find.botmag.com/print/214", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1537512}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309527792.454278, "message": "Last week I went to a meetup where someone did something similar with the kinect. They mounted a pc and kineckt on an icreate so that you could program a land-based robot with 3d vision using ROS. I wanted to get one, but couldn't afford the $1,200 price tag.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1540626}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309536491.4660909, "message": "Wow, I can't believe I didn't notice this sooner.  Arducopter uses the same accelerometer and gyro that we bought, which means their IMU code is essentially written for our hardware.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1542554}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309538139.3208859, "message": "Yep.  I'm working it into a form we can test with tomorrow.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1542893}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309542925.7519879, "message": "Ditto", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1543603}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309541445.0341871, "message": "Excellent.  I'm finding myself really psyched about this project :)", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1543392}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309726946.529599, "message": "For now it's just the buggy version of the IMU code adapted from ArduCopter.  I'll update with my work as I go.  Let me know if you'd like to be granted push privileges.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1554115}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309724349.5717211, "message": "@paniag I've got some PDFs from 3 sources on control systems and behaviors of quadrotor UAVs. I should've got your email. If you know mine & want the PDFs, send me an email. I'm wary of posting email addresses in a public forum.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1553890}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309725375.7830601, "message": "Awesome, thanks.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1553967}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309725310.6669619, "message": "Sent 'em.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1553957}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309727665.569135, "message": "Me? I'm not a coder! I mean even Arduino's fancy for me. I could give it a shot, but it's not a strength of mine.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1554176}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309726204.3014989, "message": "A quick skim reveals these may be immensely helpful, as I was expecting to need to derive many of the equations myself.  I've already been starting to learn the general dynamics and aerodynamics background required to derive that theory.  If I can make solid sense of these, it'll save a whole lot of time.  Thanks!", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1554043}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309728138.921665, "message": "No worries :)  Just making it available for anyone who'd like to browse or wants to contribute.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1554236}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309726576.9565511, "message": "@jasonaloy and anyone else who's interested:  I've created a public repository on github, accessible at https://github.com/paniag/NYCRduCopter", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1554071}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309728527.0215189, "message": "I can help decode the PDFs, but coding isn't how my mind works best. DE-coding, yes. But that's completely different.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1554270}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309732023.624316, "message": "Now that it's running, certain parts look funny to me, particularly with the accelerometer calibration.  I'll be looking into it.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1554653}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309731963.762372, "message": "I fixed the bug.  It was due to an illegal memory access because I missed an index correction somewhere.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1554646}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309735752.3545849, "message": "How funny? Is the gyro ok? I could donate a 3-axis accelerometer if you feel we need it.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1555105}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309737343.0479109, "message": "I'm pretty sure this is due to the way they calibrate.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1555347}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309738412.4528661, "message": "@paniag, what IDE are you using to look at/compile the code?", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1555511}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309737954.620285, "message": "Perhaps. Is there a calibration loop in the Arduino, or is the IMU set to self-calibrate to it's state when power is supplied?", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1555449}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309736696.9618759, "message": "Thanks.  So far, the \"funny\" stuff is (I suspect) just related to their calibration code.  I'm working on understanding why they do each thing they do and why they do it the way they do it.  Either I'll end up understanding that it all actually makes good sense, or I'll write fresh code I do understand.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1555254}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309736976.21134, "message": "At the moment I'm wondering what the purpose of \"max_offset\" and the \"_X_max_cal_offset\" condition are.  They don't seem to serve a purpose since _accel_max_cal_offset > 0 and _gyro_max_cal_offset > 0 but the _sensor_cal values are always < 0, except possibly in a configuration where _sensor_signs > 0 for the z-axis accelerometer.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1555290}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309737299.8567331, "message": "The initial \"funny\" thing that happened is: When I turn it on with the XY plane horizontal, it calibrates fine. Shows with Ax and Ay approximately 0, Az = -9.81 as expected.  Then turn it 90 degrees on its side.  The Ax and Ay appear to show approx -3 or so under the influence of gravity along the appropriate axis, but Az is still approx -7 when the Z-axis is horizontal.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1555338}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309737445.354377, "message": "While that numerical result is unusual, one would hope the quadcopter doesn't hit that kind of orientation anyway, so maybe it's fine enough for the application.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1555364}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309738082.116432, "message": "Are we certain it's a 3-axis chip in the IMU? Sparkfun usually has helpful FAQs and links... Perhaps others have reported this anomaly.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1555471}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309743135.3170381, "message": "@jasonaloy I'm using the standard Arduino IDE to compile and for minor edits.  For writing code and major edits I use vim.  I'd drop the Arduino IDE altogether except I haven't learned what's needed in the compile/upload toolchain or set any of that up.  I may learn that at some point though.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1556304}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309744644.025882, "message": "@MickChagnet There's a calibration loop in the code (APU_IMU_Oilpan.cpp - _init_gyro and _init_accel).  I am sure there's a 3-axis (accelerometer) chip in the IMU (specifically the ADXL335) and a 2-axis gyro (specifically the IDG-500).  These are the chips Sparkfun advertises as part of this board.  Also, the physical chips have the correct packaging (size, shape, pin layout) and the markings to indicate they are the correct chips.  Sparkfun is pretty helpful, but this I'm pretty sure is related to the software calibration routine.  The hardware seems fine.  Initial tests showed the raw sensor outputs qualitatively behaving as expected.  I'll post a plot soon as I figure out out how.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1556572}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309746062.5055709, "message": "I don't think Convore supports message attachments or images, so I learned how to make a Wiki page on the GitHub repo.  You can find it here: https://github.com/paniag/NYCRduCopter/wiki/Initial-Qualitative-Test-of-Sparkfun-5-DOF-IMU", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1556765}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309746215.701786, "message": "PS: I believe editing rights for the Wiki are the same as for the source code (though they are maintained in different logical repos).  So if you'd like to the ability to contribute to and/or modify the NYCRduCopter Wiki, get a github account and let me know.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1556774}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309746999.6613209, "message": "FYI: I'm going to need to switch focus to different projects for the next couple of days, and then I have a final exam on Friday.  So, my full attention may not return to this project until Sunday.  I may get to do a bit more work here and there and I'll try to stay in the loop, but this is going to be a busy week.  What work I do accomplish for this group I'll push up to GitHub and keep you updated.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1556866}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309782938.5512769, "message": "You're doing plenty already. Thanks so much. I too am working on several things. You shouldn't have to so this all yourself, but it's good you're familiarizing yourself with the hardware & aircraft dynamics. Wish I were more useful in the coding area.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1559388}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309793635.560487, "message": "You're doing quite a bit yourself.  Thanks for those papers, for instance.  Also for all the links and the networking you've been doing for the group.  I just added those papers to the wiki.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1560417}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309897537.4779451, "message": "I think both of you guys have been crazy enthusiastic! I haven't been able to even keep up with all the posts you guys have been putting up (I've been trying to read a couple every so often while I \"work\"). @paniag, I've just started looking over the code you posted, and will hopefully be able to contribute something on that front once I'm caught up.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1570120}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309898974.137677, "message": "Instructable on RC quad w/Arduino: http://www.instructables.com/id/RC-Quadrotor-Helicopter/", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1570390}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309899067.866926, "message": "@jasonaloy Sure - do you have a github account?", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1570409}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309899040.730304, "message": "I think convore is getting a bit cumbersome, and I want to make sure we keep proper track of critical issues/directions. @paniag, could you give me access to the wiki page and I'll start listing out topics on there.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1570403}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309899056.9970119, "message": "@jasonaloy Don't worry about how much you're posting or whatever.  Odds are you're a lot busier than I am, at least.  For instance, I'm not working right now :p  Besides if it weren't for you putting this group together, we'd be nowhere.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1570406}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309929487.8486519, "message": "@paniag, just created a github account, my user is jasonaloy.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1573315}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309931174.5291741, "message": "@panaig, also is this a private or public page? If possible (and free), can we make it private so we can put some of our revolutionary ideas on it.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1573435}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309959009.4248271, "message": "Agreed. And I propose a Blood Oath, full-scope CI background investigations, and TS/SCI Clearances. Should be about $35,000 each. Blood Oaths are free. Heh.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1575383}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309969792.558342, "message": "Quad bloopers http://www.engadget.com/2011/07/03/quadrocopters-blooper-reel-edition/", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1576766}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309977903.09635, "message": "@jasonaloy This is a public repository. I'll look into what the private options are, but I think github may charge.  Not sure what the deal is for private repos on other hosting sites.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1578289}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309977827.7464981, "message": "@jasonaloy You should have access now through your github account.  Let me know if you can't for some reason.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1578271}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309980026.1487379, "message": "I'm not sure what a private collaborator is though.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1578624}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309980017.0551341, "message": "github starts at $7/mo for 5 private repositories + 1 private collaborator (+ unlimited publicv repos + collaborators)", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1578623}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309985172.8793769, "message": "Nudge nudge wink wink ;-P", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1579535}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309989651.5628891, "message": "Aw snap. Looks like we'll have to use google docs. What are your guys' email addresses?", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1580134}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309995041.620553, "message": "@jasonaloy Sent by private messagel", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1580651}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309995047.993259, "message": "*message.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1580654}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309995523.6879251, "message": "I've gone public, in a rare moment of openness. It's liberating - like a summer breeze on your bare ass.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1580724}, {"user_id": 31506, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1309999794.9253621, "message": "Let the spamming begin!", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1581256}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1310044390.903769, "message": "interesting Dual Rotor Heli Instructable:: http://www.instructables.com/id/Knex-dual-rotor-helicopter/", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1583932}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1310177162.1627829, "message": "Patent: http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=E33WAAAAEBAJ&dq=Quadrotor&output=html_text", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1597109}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1310177286.133786, "message": "Inductive charging from power lines- UAV patent: http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=RLTPAAAAEBAJ&dq=Quadrotor&output=html_text", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1597115}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1310177453.675694, "message": "Quad Attitude Stabilization Method patent: http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=dP3IAAAAEBAJ&dq=Quadrotor&output=html_text", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1597136}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1310256067.691803, "message": "Let's beat them to this: http://m.inhabitat.com/eu-invests-6-2-million-in-research-for-futuristic-personal-aircrafts/", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1601566}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1310316250.6711941, "message": "Those PAVs would be awesome, but I agree the social and legal hurdles will be very difficult.  I actually expect those to significantly overshadow the technical complexities.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1605172}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1310316494.4710081, "message": "In a system that heavily automated and tightly bound to legislation, it seems it might be a better idea to make them a form of public transit.  That way it's a lot easier to keep control over all elements of the system.  If individuals own them, some of us will really want to hack and experiment on them, and that will be harder to prevent or constrain than if they are publicly owned.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1605209}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1310316640.2443521, "message": "If their flight is automated, as seems a likely requirement, then they'll be like elevators that move in \"thick\" 2-space.  Public, autonomous, flying taxis.  That's pretty kickass.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1605237}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1310319870.680712, "message": "I can't imagine flying cars ever being publically available.", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1605566}, {"user_id": 4330, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1310319888.047195, "message": "We have enough crashes in 2 dimensions!", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1605567}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1310320276.394865, "message": "Yes, absolutely.  That's one aspect of why so much automation would be required, and so consistently coordinated and controlled.  Near impossible to achieve in a system where different people own different parts, but maybe only \"very hard\" if one entity controls the whole thing.  Not that that concept doesn't have its pitfalls...", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1605597}, {"user_id": 31902, "stars": [], "topic_id": 33080, "date_created": 1310320464.4153819, "message": "Yes, absolutely.  That's one aspect of why so much automation would be required, and so consistently coordinated and controlled.  Near impossible to achieve in a system where different people own different parts, but maybe only \"very hard\" if one entity controls the whole thing.  Not that that concept doesn't have its pitfalls...", "group_id": 9523, "id": 1605611}]