convore.json/groups/python/alternative-to-buildout-lets-fork-buildbot/messages.json

[{"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986742.232753, "message": "Will look into this. Thanks!", "group_id": 292, "id": 137904}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985905.236661, "message": "god yes", "group_id": 292, "id": 137791}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985347.545191, "message": "Makefiles and fabric lack an easy way to reuse code like a buildout recipe", "group_id": 292, "id": 137720}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297984996.430877, "message": "But all in all it lacks some really convenience of a pip/virtualenv environment. I want to fire up my interpreter with all the packages available etc.", "group_id": 292, "id": 137683}, {"user_id": 1, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985166.1900489, "message": "Topic changed administratively", "group_id": 292, "id": 137692}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985175.4384079, "message": "What @coderanger said, though I'll hasten to add that all you're *really* asking for is a Makefile or fabfile or Bash script that calls pip and mkvirtualenv", "group_id": 292, "id": 137693}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985245.8232529, "message": "@bitprophet Can really use pip to manage non-Python deps, and for all but the most simple setups you will hate yourself if you use fabric for that", "group_id": 292, "id": 137706}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985408.4604709, "message": "So apart from handling dependency resolution it's pretty much there", "group_id": 292, "id": 137734}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985474.3356431, "message": "@gregmuellegger It can be aimed at workstations if you want, but what @coderanger and myself are referring to is using local VMs", "group_id": 292, "id": 137741}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985533.8398621, "message": "@gregmuellegger Aside from the memory hit, I'd say no, because once you write a small Chef cookbook to set up the VM the way you like it, a fresh new dev env is a \"vagrant up\" away.", "group_id": 292, "id": 137752}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986161.036967, "message": "I like VMs because you can run the exact same chef/puppet/fabric/whatever provisioning tools at them and you get a 100% identical system on dev, staging and production", "group_id": 292, "id": 137817}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986196.222492, "message": "gotcha", "group_id": 292, "id": 137824}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986488.8760591, "message": "@tbatterii and that's perfectly fine. Me, when I was bouncing between PHP4, PHP5, Django 0.95/0.96/1.0/1.1, Rails of various versions, MySQL, postgres, etc...fuck doing all that locally", "group_id": 292, "id": 137868}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985100.753233, "message": "So what I'm currently thinking is, if it would be worth it to fork buildout or to completely rewrite an alternative that supports some type or recipe (maybe mostly backwards compatible to buildout) but has also the benefits of a virtualenv", "group_id": 292, "id": 137687}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985131.480227, "message": "(sorry the topic says - let's fork buildbot --> I meant buildout :( ... I want to change the topic name)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137690}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985946.7339759, "message": "I really wish I'd found/leveraged it at my previous job, they're still using this horrible VMWare flow that takes like a half hour to set up :(", "group_id": 292, "id": 137793}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985210.4369831, "message": "(IMO)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137698}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985633.0626271, "message": "Yay for the future :-)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137769}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985724.230077, "message": "Wait a minute or two and the dev files will appear in the folder :)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137784}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297986715.94012, "user_id": 4156}], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986685.8793261, "message": "luckily if you start with a simple local venv, moving to vagrant+chef is \"easy\"", "group_id": 292, "id": 137897}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986814.7419219, "message": "@tbatterii Though Puppet would be a good choice too (just not my personal fav)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137916}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297987080.363826, "user_id": 1736}], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986936.7557571, "message": "@gregmuellegger Re: distributing dev VMs to others, you could just give them your Chef cookbook/Fabfile/etc and they'd install vagrant + run those provisioning tools on new VMs of their own", "group_id": 292, "id": 137937}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985361.781769, "message": "*totally unbiased*", "group_id": 292, "id": 137724}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985496.4183581, "message": "Vagrant makes it super easy to have a virtual machine sharing files with your local system", "group_id": 292, "id": 137745}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987310.3645251, "message": "but if I were to have to write docs on how to begin hacking on the code base(which I have to do) the first step as (install ruby) just seems stupid", "group_id": 292, "id": 138038}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987464.3626139, "message": "(SIGH, WINDOWS AMIRITE)", "group_id": 292, "id": 138076}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297984954.847867, "message": "I'm so far quite happy with buildout, I like the idea of recipes to be able to pull in dependencies that are not just python -- like including a compile/make/make install recipe etc.", "group_id": 292, "id": 137682}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985063.4262469, "message": "vagrant + chef/puppet + pip", "group_id": 292, "id": 137685}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985266.3905611, "message": "I should also mention that I've never actually used Buildout because it seemed like overkill when all I needed was a fab task that did the above. This probably means I have a different use case.", "group_id": 292, "id": 137711}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985369.648165, "message": "*ok maybe slightly biased*", "group_id": 292, "id": 137726}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985390.3274381, "message": "Not that it can't be improved, but it is just Python", "group_id": 292, "id": 137729}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985592.919765, "message": "Vagrant also makes it easy to store copies of VMs so you can even skip the Chef step after the first setup and just say \"hey I want a new base Django environment please\"", "group_id": 292, "id": 137756}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985606.574815, "message": "^^ this", "group_id": 292, "id": 137761}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985619.3426311, "message": "it's quite transparent", "group_id": 292, "id": 137764}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985346.661345, "message": "but again...not familiar with whatever Buildout adds on top of that sort of thing", "group_id": 292, "id": 137719}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986430.518615, "message": "As for simple django apps that I wrote I already switched to virtualenv since they are python-only and pip/virtualenv is way more flexible than buildout", "group_id": 292, "id": 137860}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986562.9247091, "message": "@tbatterii sorry, I meant python packages -- not whole projects.", "group_id": 292, "id": 137878}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987235.9912469, "message": "I love the idea of VMs as dev envs more and more", "group_id": 292, "id": 138020}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987498.0675659, "message": "Vagrant on Winx64 requires horribleness", "group_id": 292, "id": 138083}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987592.763036, "message": "@tbatterii Do the tests require the non-Python deps or not? If not, just ignore all of this and run from the git clone, if they do then run a jenkins worker in the VM", "group_id": 292, "id": 138087}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987982.9523971, "message": "(Hypothetically -- I'm not suggesting anybody do that...)", "group_id": 292, "id": 138138}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985384.484292, "message": "@gregmuellegger fab files are just Python, you can import any lib you want just like normal", "group_id": 292, "id": 137727}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985421.7716429, "message": "@gregmuellegger vagrant init ... && vagrant up", "group_id": 292, "id": 137735}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985585.8150589, "message": "Generally with vagrant you just have it look at your local folder for code and it maps ports automatically so you still access localhost:8080 or whatever", "group_id": 292, "id": 137755}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986091.5769701, "message": "But I agree that a complete VM is less painful if setups get more complex over time.", "group_id": 292, "id": 137811}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986200.7383649, "message": "wait so the future is, when I start a new python egg, I create a VM? I'll stay with buildout.", "group_id": 292, "id": 137825}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985333.8301849, "message": "I also don't see why I'd \"hate\" using Fabric for shell type stuff, at the level we're talking about it's simply using local() and whatever Python you want to use", "group_id": 292, "id": 137717}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985357.600498, "message": "How does fabric make it hard to reuse code?", "group_id": 292, "id": 137723}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985439.6900699, "message": "also, repeating the love for vagrant and (chef|puppet)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137737}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985493.213393, "message": "@coderanger vagrant uses Virtual machines, right? Isn't it overkill to have a complete OS for your simple sideproject?", "group_id": 292, "id": 137743}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985493.7477109, "message": "vagrant == wrapper for virtualbox more or less", "group_id": 292, "id": 137744}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985611.178771, "message": "local files, local port", "group_id": 292, "id": 137763}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985674.1636779, "message": "ok sounds cool in some way. Compatible with not-so-technical-persons like designers? ;-)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137774}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986093.89012, "message": "Doesn't that end up not quite mirroring your production setup, though?", "group_id": 292, "id": 137812}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986193.176425, "message": "and I've not even worked on any enormous sites myself yet", "group_id": 292, "id": 137822}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986235.388031, "message": "as opposed to ?", "group_id": 292, "id": 137833}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986533.609838, "message": "@ericflo: you mean an appengine project in virtualenv?", "group_id": 292, "id": 137875}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985342.2855871, "message": "Buildout tried to do what chef and friends just do much better (application config and lifecycle mgmt)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137718}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987008.310868, "message": "@bitprophet ok sounds much better", "group_id": 292, "id": 137956}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985398.8556349, "message": "(*cough*chef integration*)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137732}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985405.9091871, "message": "@coderanger what I like about buildout is that I can give a project to a co-worker and say \"run 'python bootstrap.py && bin/buildout' and you're ready to go\"", "group_id": 292, "id": 137733}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985438.703994, "message": "I haven't looked into chef yet. Is it also usefull for local development? I thought it's something like keeping your server's config files in sync", "group_id": 292, "id": 137736}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985469.8096211, "message": "@gregmuellegger No reason you can't also use to configure a dev env :)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137740}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985526.174284, "message": "@gregmuellegger No, it takes maybe 500MB of disk space and all modern CPUs support virtualized execution", "group_id": 292, "id": 137749}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985534.9985111, "message": "(so it is near-native speed for CPU)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137753}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985597.0708561, "message": "no need to even notice you are running the server et al in a VM", "group_id": 292, "id": 137757}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985703.6596661, "message": "Yep, literally once you set it up you just tell them the init URL (which is the VM image and settings in one file) and then just vagrant up", "group_id": 292, "id": 137778}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985754.5100629, "message": "(sure as hell beats explaining how to change PYTHONPATH to a designer for the umpteenthe time)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137787}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986057.3741541, "message": "Thats why I like buildout .. you can write a recipe to setup Redis or whatever-service-you-need and it's installed locally in the project, not touching your system and setup with one command.", "group_id": 292, "id": 137809}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986302.680264, "message": "okwhatevs, setup.py etc.... same thing", "group_id": 292, "id": 137847}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986360.1699181, "message": "lol", "group_id": 292, "id": 137852}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297986455.97984, "user_id": 4156}], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986391.546309, "message": "<----- fortunate", "group_id": 292, "id": 137857}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986443.849791, "message": "ummmm no", "group_id": 292, "id": 137861}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986479.7361579, "message": "try an appengine project in virtualenv sometime", "group_id": 292, "id": 137866}, {"user_id": 1, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986494.785713, "message": "@tbatterii can you even do that?", "group_id": 292, "id": 137870}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297986717.8359289, "user_id": 4156}], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986613.3656311, "message": "If you don't have heavy non-Python deps then vagrant would indeed be overkill", "group_id": 292, "id": 137890}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986163.663574, "message": "Hm.. You might be right. I were not in the situation yet that DBs were split up onto multiple machines. I'm still a student and haven't had a high traffic site yet to work on.", "group_id": 292, "id": 137818}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987177.4124069, "message": "@coderanger I don't :)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137998}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987488.6625741, "message": "also how does chef help with continuous integration? what's that jenkins job look like?", "group_id": 292, "id": 138081}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297987650.1776569, "user_id": 4156}], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987585.6192341, "message": "@bitprophet if they are productive, I don't care :) but I do love pointing out the sangs when they hit them", "group_id": 292, "id": 138086}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987700.0017109, "message": "Yes, it is a sizable superset", "group_id": 292, "id": 138101}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985783.3874331, "message": "you forward the whole VM? That's not possible for me with 500 MB :( I'm in the countryside in Germany. Maximum bandwith is 1MBit/s down and 128KBit/s up ...", "group_id": 292, "id": 137789}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986476.003547, "message": "(with django apps I mean python packages also installable by pip via pypi)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137864}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297985970.834722, "message": "Or local-system stack dev, which is always painful", "group_id": 292, "id": 137795}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986372.3426299, "message": "I can't get behind any sort of serious daemon-oriented development that uses a local system, unless you're fortunate enough to only work on one specific set of dependencies", "group_id": 292, "id": 137854}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986182.2834711, "message": "So I used buildout in production too", "group_id": 292, "id": 137821}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986880.1932099, "message": "whoa, convore hiccup @_@ didn't see the last like ten posts", "group_id": 292, "id": 137926}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987358.906348, "message": "Well, Vagrant is also written in Ruby, I imagine is what he means", "group_id": 292, "id": 138054}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987367.9905269, "message": "so...maybe @tbatterii is on Windows?", "group_id": 292, "id": 138057}, {"user_id": 7378, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987415.07511, "message": "Most of the useful tools out there are written in Ruby.", "group_id": 292, "id": 138066}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987417.1788881, "message": "on osx myself, but I have devs who chose to use windows and there's no sense trying to argue with them, since buildout works just fine", "group_id": 292, "id": 138067}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987439.7013991, "message": "Yea, that's a much harder sell in that case", "group_id": 292, "id": 138070}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986128.5959699, "message": "I mean, ideally it shouldn't matter if the daemon is compiled from source with a local $PREFIX, but that'll almost always differ from your production distro's packaging (unless you use buildout there too?)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137814}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986216.6472809, "message": "eggs? gross", "group_id": 292, "id": 137828}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987727.192446, "message": "The issue is that buildout can't do this kind of stuff for production so you either end up with duplication or things being slightly different", "group_id": 292, "id": 138106}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986179.3937809, "message": "yea, this stuff becomes more important in \"real life\" scenarios", "group_id": 292, "id": 137820}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986231.851099, "message": "i.e. python package^^", "group_id": 292, "id": 137831}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986267.396039, "message": "tar.gz?", "group_id": 292, "id": 137840}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986335.0101299, "message": "Re: VMs, it's more prevalent for Web development; for CLI-only tools I don't bother", "group_id": 292, "id": 137850}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986863.6789889, "message": "@gregmuellegger Maybe there's a miscommunication -- you wouldn't deploy the VMs to production, you'd just use them on your local system", "group_id": 292, "id": 137922}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987002.9016049, "message": "That would be much less network xfer at the cost of more time to go from no VM to a correctly provisioned VM (though they can of course just \"vagrant package\" on their end once they've run the stuff once)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137953}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987043.3729081, "message": "And what coderanger said, you'd want the Vagrantfile which says \"use this base image, this port-forward/etc configuration, and run these provision tools\"", "group_id": 292, "id": 137962}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987073.3834281, "message": "(literally)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137972}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986635.8434441, "message": "ex. sqlite and miniredis for dev is easy to do in a virtualenv", "group_id": 292, "id": 137894}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297991660.913552, "user_id": 12347}], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986901.1240511, "message": "@tbatterii If we are disqualifying tools because they are written in Ruby, I hope you don't use github ;-)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137931}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987294.7475381, "message": "@tbatterii ruby comes by default on everything but windows, so you wouldn't have to no matter what ;-)", "group_id": 292, "id": 138033}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986651.222558, "message": "but lets say you want postgis for geodjango ....", "group_id": 292, "id": 137895}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987324.5837369, "message": "Why would that be the step?", "group_id": 292, "id": 138043}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986998.4877551, "message": "And the Vagrantfile", "group_id": 292, "id": 137948}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986777.4915161, "message": "However I'm sceptical about the high volums of the VMs. It's just not practical for me to push few hundred MB over the wire.", "group_id": 292, "id": 137908}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986860.4727139, "message": "@gregmuellegger Thats what internal gig-E is for :-)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137921}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987160.370132, "message": "<3", "group_id": 292, "id": 137991}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987250.840127, "message": "Cool. Thanks for helping out and keeping me back from forking buildout ;-)", "group_id": 292, "id": 138024}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987269.915565, "message": "@coderanger if I recall the last time I did a pull from github or something I didn't have to install ruby", "group_id": 292, "id": 138030}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987300.1461861, "message": "(same as Python)", "group_id": 292, "id": 138035}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988600.3453629, "message": "(ok the last point might be fixed with a patch -- no need to fork buildout)", "group_id": 292, "id": 138218}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989319.9604499, "message": "i haven't figured it out :)", "group_id": 292, "id": 138300}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989610.5166259, "message": "so maybe virtualenv needs to be forked to have the ability to be extended by plugins, I think we would both be happy then :)", "group_id": 292, "id": 138343}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986792.272099, "message": "over what wire?", "group_id": 292, "id": 137911}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986793.8315589, "message": "by chef you mean? https://github.com/opscode/chef", "group_id": 292, "id": 137912}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987040.6452, "message": "vagrant is just a means to the end of using your real config management flow for your dev envs", "group_id": 292, "id": 137961}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987345.313174, "message": "Chef/Puppet are only ever run inside the VM, which is already setup as needed", "group_id": 292, "id": 138051}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988945.3352611, "message": "Maybe the simplest approach to my goals would be a buildout that uses pip under the hood to install packages and that \"activates\" the virtualenv before running scripts provided by recipes.", "group_id": 292, "id": 138260}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986801.799238, "message": "@tbatterii Yes", "group_id": 292, "id": 137913}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297986824.9620271, "user_id": 7512}], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986818.1168671, "message": "ruby is illegal in my state :)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137917}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297986818.320266, "message": "Giving the VM to a co-worker over the internet.", "group_id": 292, "id": 137918}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297987099.388602, "user_id": 1736}], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987068.9535539, "message": "So ideally it's \"hey git clone my project, install vagrant, and run 'vagrant up'\"", "group_id": 292, "id": 137970}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987121.2609029, "message": "(assuming that you've put the Vagrantfile in your project root, which is the intent)", "group_id": 292, "id": 137985}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987134.6269319, "message": "It's like a fabfile/makefile/rakefile/etc, thus the \"-file\"", "group_id": 292, "id": 137987}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988844.380259, "message": "Something in-between buildout and virtualenv would be awesome. Maybe implementable with a recipe that integrates virtualenv into buildout?", "group_id": 292, "id": 138253}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989289.402288, "message": "If I remember correctly thats already possible", "group_id": 292, "id": 138295}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989442.919311, "message": "Hm, nice idea", "group_id": 292, "id": 138307}, {"user_id": 7378, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987222.5948901, "message": "I'm still amazed at how many people *aren't* using VMs for development. I mean, I've always used macs... but I've never developed on them. If you're a designer/non-tech it's fine, if you're a programmer... you'd have to prove you were a damn good engineer before I hire you.", "group_id": 292, "id": 138012}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987484.691947, "message": "Yeah, having fun with that here right now", "group_id": 292, "id": 138079}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987593.680759, "message": "*snags*", "group_id": 292, "id": 138088}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987786.808301, "message": "while also being more limited in scope (see: dev vs production)", "group_id": 292, "id": 138111}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988390.6609671, "message": "@tbatterii I would love to have the power of pip", "group_id": 292, "id": 138180}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988415.2905011, "message": "thats possible with buildout trough recipes", "group_id": 292, "id": 138183}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989289.17699, "message": "i have had endless problems on OSX because of that", "group_id": 292, "id": 138294}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989469.4439321, "message": "ah yeah .. I know why I haven't done that", "group_id": 292, "id": 138308}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989489.582994, "message": "ok not really a problem but you need to keep track of both, venv and the buildout env", "group_id": 292, "id": 138309}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989533.2578521, "message": "introducing another layer of confusion to my not-so-technical-co-worker (if he reads that: sorry for bashing ;-) )", "group_id": 292, "id": 138317}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987381.9306021, "message": "oh right, don't clone my repo, just take my vm :)", "group_id": 292, "id": 138061}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988879.434999, "message": "yeah I realize that, and plz don't take this as me defending buildout, I know there's problems(i've heard), but since I switched our codebase over to it a few months ago I've been happier", "group_id": 292, "id": 138258}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987671.96364, "message": "seems to me chef solves a different problem than buildout", "group_id": 292, "id": 138098}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988463.462662, "message": "I want the CLI tools I use to have access to the packages in my buildout e.g. an bin/activate file like with virtualenv", "group_id": 292, "id": 138192}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989036.5276999, "message": "hmmm", "group_id": 292, "id": 138271}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987708.5786531, "message": "@tbatterii There is (some? a lot of?) overlap, but they do solve for somewhat different use cases", "group_id": 292, "id": 138103}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988423.7981379, "message": "but not as easy as with pip", "group_id": 292, "id": 138187}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988752.64572, "message": "as far as specifying an index.... not sure if I understand you right, but what about a find-links in your buildout.cfg ?", "group_id": 292, "id": 138241}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989439.0705581, "message": "clunky but it works", "group_id": 292, "id": 138306}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987778.2619569, "message": "@tbatterii I think the Venn diagram would have buildout's use case contained within chef's circle, though, with the caveat that Buildout, being more specific, is possibly quicker to use", "group_id": 292, "id": 138109}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297987817.1370721, "message": "Chef is just for \"setting stuff up\", from a single file to an entire architecture -- you could write a buildout-a-like that just uses a subset of Chef's features.", "group_id": 292, "id": 138112}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988401.2420461, "message": "e.g. installing from a git repository", "group_id": 292, "id": 138181}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988444.515012, "message": "ok", "group_id": 292, "id": 138190}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988755.9446449, "message": "ex: find-links = http://dist.plone.org/thirdparty/", "group_id": 292, "id": 138242}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989066.190295, "message": "all scripts I've gotten in buildout thus far work fine", "group_id": 292, "id": 138274}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989127.110342, "message": "ah ok", "group_id": 292, "id": 138280}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989218.772465, "message": "but now I see where the lack of activate is a problem", "group_id": 292, "id": 138287}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989503.84882, "message": "ah I see", "group_id": 292, "id": 138310}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988798.260715, "message": "yeah I use find-links as fall workaround too", "group_id": 292, "id": 138249}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989635.4079349, "message": "From the buildout docs: \"You can then use include-site-packages = false and exec-sitecustomize = false buildout options to eliminate access to your Python's site packages and not execute its sitecustomize file, if it exists, respectively.\n\nAlternately, you can use the allowed-eggs-from-site-packages buildout option as a glob-aware whitelist of eggs that may come from site-packages. This value defaults to \"*\", accepting all eggs.\" cool ...", "group_id": 292, "id": 138346}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988805.309509, "message": "Actually I have thought about this propably 2 minutes before creating this topic :) I wanted to hear what you guys say about buildout and alternatives", "group_id": 292, "id": 138252}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988181.5975831, "message": "@gregmuellegger you mentioned one thing you would like in buildout from pip/venv which I can sympathize with. what else in your mind would warrant a fork?", "group_id": 292, "id": 138158}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988193.5625279, "message": "i genuinely curious", "group_id": 292, "id": 138159}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988562.36132, "message": "buildout doesn't allow multiple package indexes, if you specify \"index\" in the buildout.cfg you stick with it -- this makes it impossible to have a company-internal package repo (that doesn't mirror pypi as well)", "group_id": 292, "id": 138207}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297988682.282867, "message": "when I first started using buildout rather than venv/pip I missed the activate but in my case the appengine sdk misbehaves in venv or disregards the paths. So now I don't use activate, and it's not a big deal. venv/pip isn't extenable, would be cool if they were merged IMO", "group_id": 292, "id": 138227}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989100.4343181, "message": "Yep, atm Buildout injects the needed paths into sys.path at the top of each script.", "group_id": 292, "id": 138278}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989114.0623779, "message": "But theres no way to have this environment for you custom scripts that are not created by recipes", "group_id": 292, "id": 138279}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989134.8374109, "message": "i completely agree", "group_id": 292, "id": 138281}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989192.5290101, "message": "I have a utils egg/package in my repo/buildout that has those scripts so that they get set correctly", "group_id": 292, "id": 138284}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989236.741549, "message": "yep", "group_id": 292, "id": 138289}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989241.6652491, "message": "I don't need it in most cases", "group_id": 292, "id": 138290}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989255.1061189, "message": "But its helpful for onetime scripts like etc.", "group_id": 292, "id": 138291}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989272.1981139, "message": "IMO, what I want from venv in buildout is --no-site-packages", "group_id": 292, "id": 138293}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989319.8987, "message": "But its always a hassle than with PIL, isn't it?", "group_id": 292, "id": 138299}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989336.6204259, "message": "yeah thus the find-links in my cfg :P", "group_id": 292, "id": 138303}, {"user_id": 12404, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989407.8096261, "message": "so my recipe is create a venv then ~/venv2.6/bin/python bootstrap.py --distribute", "group_id": 292, "id": 138304}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1297989859.862783, "message": "Ok need some sleep now. Thanks for the chat -- maybe we get back to this later.", "group_id": 292, "id": 138375}, {"user_id": 1760, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298036693.409189, "message": "You may want to check out virtualenvwrapper.project. It defines a plugin system to do some of what you're describing. http://www.doughellmann.com/projects/virtualenvwrapper.project/ for the base and http://www.doughellmann.com/projects/virtualenvwrapper.django/ for a specific example. If you have feedback about making it easier to package recipes, I'd like to talk about it.", "group_id": 292, "id": 142729}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298042123.0401051, "message": "Turns out for the OSX peeps, MacFUSE isn't good enough to support git's file-access requirements.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143518}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298042155.000272, "message": "So one of our OSX devs tried flipping it, and mounting the project files off his local disk from the VM, using a VirtualBox \"virtual drive\" or whatever it's called.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143522}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298042174.582406, "message": "And the performance he reported was ridiculously terrible.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143529}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [{"date_created": 1298050628.8871341, "user_id": 7}], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298041998.397227, "message": "Ok, so vagrant evangelists: I've tried exactly one project with a distributed team using a VM for dev, and it was a nightmare.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143506}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298042255.1091599, "message": "and @bitprophet", "group_id": 292, "id": 143542}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298043465.8778279, "message": "@carljm I've not used the local files mount myself, nor have I run any Django projects with it yet, so unfortunately I can't answer those specific concerns.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143762}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298042161.117265, "message": "Shared drive or something...", "group_id": 292, "id": 143525}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [{"date_created": 1308953310.2099099, "user_id": 33300}], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298042027.190026, "message": "For one thing we didn't have vagrant; that would have made setup/provisioning easier.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143509}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298042068.2093921, "message": "You have to have the files available in your local system, so you can use your own VCS config, editor, etc.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143512}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298042010.5146761, "message": "Quite likely we were doing some things wrong, but I'm trying to nail down exactly what.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143507}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298042050.7950599, "message": "But even with that aside; we had major problems with devs just being able to have a sane development flow.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143510}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298042104.2679319, "message": "We tried that two ways: one was using FUSE and sshfs to access files on the VM over ssh.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143517}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298042184.6327159, "message": "Like, minutes just to start runserver in the VM.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143531}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298042191.1443219, "message": "On a relatively large Django project.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143533}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298042236.0398669, "message": "So - I'd be very curious to know what's the silver bullet we were missing. And then I'll go try out vagrant...", "group_id": 292, "id": 143537}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298042249.8225529, "message": "^ /cc @coderanger", "group_id": 292, "id": 143539}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298043502.0768681, "message": "I have done some decently sized database-related actions in VMs and while they're not as fast as I'd like, when I try to give the VM enough RAM, it's definitely serviceable.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143769}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298043791.582118, "message": "@bitprophet Ok, thanks. Yeah, ssh+vim still doesn't solve the VCS problem.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143812}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298043511.175849, "message": "Don't know how that would translate into a full Web stack.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143771}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298043557.6420851, "message": "I can say that the Vagrant local file mount is super easy to set up (it;s enabled by default) so performance concerns aside, it would definitely be far easier than MacFUSE or similar", "group_id": 292, "id": 143777}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298043589.942812, "message": "(I've had that same problem for *years*, re getting local files to a server or VM, and it's ironic that only after I stop doing a lot of Web dev do I find what looks like a decent solution.)", "group_id": 292, "id": 143779}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298043612.7656081, "message": "(Also, ssh+vim, but that does not solve the problem for most people like it does for me)", "group_id": 292, "id": 143784}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298043813.9678559, "message": "Guess I just need to play around with it and figure out what works; clearly something does, because people are having success with this. I'd kind of given up on it.", "group_id": 292, "id": 143817}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298043913.5349281, "message": "@carljm Did your VirtualBox using dev use Vagrant specifically or just vanilla VB? It's remotely possible that Vagrant is using settings/whatever that make the mount less painful. Not super likely but possibly worth testing out", "group_id": 292, "id": 143828}, {"user_id": 7512, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298045782.8085639, "message": "Seems like @d0ugal has a blogpost about vagrant and django in the pipeline, we'll see what he writes.", "group_id": 292, "id": 144075}, {"user_id": 214, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298047919.655355, "message": "@bitprophet We were not using vagrant. I don't know if it existed at the time? May have, but we didn't know about it. Yes, I need to play with it and see how it sets that up; maybe it knows something we didn't.", "group_id": 292, "id": 144289}, {"user_id": 13501, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298049633.5531991, "message": "well it's almost like, should we make a packaging system for every single language we use, or make every single package in all languages as deb", "group_id": 292, "id": 144489}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298049277.7209761, "message": "@carljm Yea it's only been around for maybe a year? I sure didn't know of it back when I was helping set up a similar workflow for VMWare Fusion (uggggggh) in ~2008. Good luck!", "group_id": 292, "id": 144435}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298052281.9927371, "message": "@itsnotvalid I know a number of companies that do that, all internal Python projects are packages as debs and pushed to local repo.", "group_id": 292, "id": 144928}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298050666.6625121, "message": "@carljm that project was horrible in 100 different ways", "group_id": 292, "id": 144724}, {"user_id": 2588, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298053254.563796, "message": "a coworker has been experimenting with checkinstall with promising results so far. to create a .deb all you have to do is run ``pip install <yourproject/dependencies>`` against checkinstall in a fresh virtualenv", "group_id": 292, "id": 145071}, {"user_id": 13501, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298053876.932004, "message": "@alex which project are you talking about, buildout or vagrant?", "group_id": 292, "id": 145124}, {"user_id": 13501, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298054142.513515, "message": "@coderanger I am just exaggerating the two extremes of solutions... either we get packages at system level (think what we have in ubuntu/debian right now), language/language platform level (think pypi) and also project level (think buildout, or better way done in ruby, like rvm for ruby stuff) it's just different points of cutting the dependencies which of course people would have different opinion on.So at least in windows most software bundles with their own copies of libraries, sometimes even bundling with JVM", "group_id": 292, "id": 145153}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298054217.5601981, "message": "@unbracketed yea, checkinstall and similar tools are neat and I'd be using them if I wasn't currently happier with sticking w/ lang-specific package managers", "group_id": 292, "id": 145162}, {"user_id": 4156, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298054264.984127, "message": "@itsnotvalid I'd say it's a similar situation to the old \"do I link to shared libraries or just statically compile?\" question, really. It's all about tradeoffs", "group_id": 292, "id": 145170}, {"user_id": 13501, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298058200.0326681, "message": "@bitprophet sounds like another question on stackoverflow (overflew already)", "group_id": 292, "id": 145815}, {"user_id": 7, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7126, "date_created": 1298063771.8706989, "message": "@itsnotvalid I'm talking about the one @carljm and I were on that required VMs for all devs because it was such a mess", "group_id": 292, "id": 146379}]