convore.json/groups/python/would-python-be-more-popular-than-php-if-it-were-as-easy-to-setup-and-deploy-for-the-web/messages.json

[{"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297828551.3430281, "message": "See also much of the discussion on https://convore.com/django-community/how-would-wordpress-benefit-if-written-in-django/", "group_id": 292, "id": 117565}, {"user_id": 205, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297828560.8684919, "message": "The things you need to learn about deploying python web applications help you write better applications. I view php's lack of visibility into the OS and what not a bug, not a feature.", "group_id": 292, "id": 117567}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829106.5547011, "message": "Trac is a big one, and there are some big Django apps (ReviewBoard, Pootle, Transifex)", "group_id": 292, "id": 117623}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829139.840817, "message": "And of those, Trac is probably the closest to non-terrible, but its still pretty bad", "group_id": 292, "id": 117625}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829183.6807361, "message": "Buildout tried to make this easy, but it ended up just causing more problems than it fixed", "group_id": 292, "id": 117633}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297828896.875077, "message": "Turnkey apps for Python are still definitely a source of much ire.", "group_id": 292, "id": 117604}, {"user_id": 2458, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297827917.2325881, "message": "I remember the first time I tried installing a Python web app before I learned anything about the language. Coming from a PHP background, I was puzzled why I couldn't simply toss the files on my server, edit the config and go.", "group_id": 292, "id": 117518}, {"user_id": 1992, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829078.472538, "message": "I'm not even aware of any projects that are attempting to distribute turnkey Python webapps", "group_id": 292, "id": 117621}, {"user_id": 1992, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829090.8488269, "message": "Closest thing I can think of is Pinax, but those are /libraries/", "group_id": 292, "id": 117622}, {"user_id": 7317, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297840994.903075, "user_id": 9633}, {"date_created": 1297895329.763412, "user_id": 6671}], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829293.156446, "message": "well, acording to Tiobe Python is more popular than PHP", "group_id": 292, "id": 117655}, {"user_id": 2458, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829679.9698009, "message": "@canassa I guess popularity depends on what metric you measure. Python is important  in the background for enterprise apps, big companies and offline programs while PHP is exclusively web apps. On the other hand, nearly every popular distributable web app is PHP based.", "group_id": 292, "id": 117660}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829998.854763, "message": "@ericholscher There are still things like generating a WSGI file, dealing with DB setup, etc etc", "group_id": 292, "id": 117665}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297828692.5936649, "user_id": 7}, {"date_created": 1297834432.538625, "user_id": 5582}, {"date_created": 1297887910.4163311, "user_id": 6415}], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297828452.9590621, "message": "It would probably be *as* popular as PHP, but in retrospect (having been somewhat involved in the PHP community in the past) I'm rather glad Python didn't go that way.", "group_id": 292, "id": 117550}, {"user_id": 1992, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829202.5324371, "message": "repressed trauma", "group_id": 292, "id": 117635}, {"user_id": 205, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829209.9486239, "message": "Seems with pip, requirements files, and virtualenv, it's pretty simple these days", "group_id": 292, "id": 117638}, {"user_id": 205, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297829338.128046, "user_id": 141}], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829248.2819071, "message": "I'm toying with the idea of distributing an app with a chef cookbook that will install it for you, and with instructions of how to run it with chef-solo.", "group_id": 292, "id": 117647}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829865.6707649, "message": "@KrakensDen <--- Semi-former-ish Trac dev ;-)", "group_id": 292, "id": 117661}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297830027.025547, "message": "Trac at least tries to provide a more wizard-style approach to that, which I think helps a lot of people", "group_id": 292, "id": 117667}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297830057.969079, "message": "I would still prefer to see the install wizard be a web GUI though, since you can make a lot of things much easier that wa", "group_id": 292, "id": 117669}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297830214.8877599, "message": "@ericholscher More likely \"apt-get install ruby-dev && gem install\" ;-) but point taken", "group_id": 292, "id": 117678}, {"user_id": 2458, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297828834.7290151, "message": "@ericholscher I agree that it is great that the developer has to learn those things, but as a distributable web app (a la Wordpress) it turns away users.", "group_id": 292, "id": 117594}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829167.03339, "message": "Just installing Transifex is a lesson in frustration", "group_id": 292, "id": 117630}, {"user_id": 1992, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829194.367959, "message": "ah, I'd forgotten about Trac", "group_id": 292, "id": 117634}, {"user_id": 205, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829284.86078, "message": "Configurability is the hard part (eg. how to let someone install it without root, into a local install dir, etc.), but virtualenv makes that mostly moot", "group_id": 292, "id": 117653}, {"user_id": 1736, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829921.3730321, "message": "@ericholscher If the Python web community adopts that in some kind of general way it might help, but Chef is too heavy to pull out to install a single app.", "group_id": 292, "id": 117662}, {"user_id": 205, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829983.5432949, "message": "@coderanger Eh. chef-solo is just a \"gem install\" away. Plus you gotta start somewhere :)", "group_id": 292, "id": 117664}, {"user_id": 1992, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297829438.9038701, "message": "that's sort of orthogonal to having deployable-for-mere-mortals webapps", "group_id": 292, "id": 117656}, {"user_id": 205, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297830009.537056, "message": "gunicorn", "group_id": 292, "id": 117666}, {"user_id": 9633, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297841014.0742469, "message": "@canassa Yepp, that's right: http://www.tiobe.com/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html", "group_id": 292, "id": 118132}, {"user_id": 4893, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297842411.578655, "message": "I'm not sure, but isn't the whole \"easy to install for mere mortals\" credo a bit overrated? WordPress and phpBB (just to name two) are very easy to install but hosters still provide one-click installers for the so called \"mere mortals\". Quite a few hosters offer the same for Trac et al.", "group_id": 292, "id": 118187}, {"user_id": 4356, "stars": [{"date_created": 1297880594.0134189, "user_id": 8013}], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297856962.573076, "message": "\"Be more popular than\" - I guess you're talking strictly for web apps?  Python being the defacto standard for systems scripting and coming by default in every major Linux distribution is a lot more relevant to me then how many people use it for blogs and forums.  I think it's less popular on the web side because the python web frameworks all depend on knowing quite a bit more about applications architecture than PHP does in order to get started.  In my opinion, this is a good thing, but it's still a barrier to entry for people who just want to get a dynamic page or two up.", "group_id": 292, "id": 119296}, {"user_id": 8013, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297856719.4694791, "message": "Should Python be as popular as PHP? And in general, why is a badass language like Python being compared to PHP -- where the designers thought that, after five major versions, `goto` should be added to the language", "group_id": 292, "id": 119261}, {"user_id": 2458, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297861204.688889, "message": "@taotetek I addressed the issue of Python being used more for non-web and background applications in a message already. There are a lot of benefits to greater popularity: bigger developer base means more support for libraries and frameworks, more scripts available if you want to run something in Python, and a larger need for Python developers meaning more jobs.", "group_id": 292, "id": 119528}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297862692.787416, "message": "Maybe this comes down to the web's popularity as a development platform as opposed to non-web platforms? PHP began as a web-oriented language. Python did not. The popularity of the web as a dev platform is what's driving efforts to make Python work there. I think Python-on-the-web is still in its infancy. There's much to smooth out, and exponentially more Python devs seem interested in getting content into browsers via the status quo mechanisms available than are interested in fixing/changing those mechanisms.", "group_id": 292, "id": 119613}, {"user_id": 4356, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297867816.702497, "message": "@matthias I also think Ruby and Rails took some mindshare that may have gone to python under different circumstances.  The aggressive marketing of the Rails framework helped (for better or for worse) ruby become known as a \"web\" language, and now there is a lot of infrastructure from various hosting providers in place for rails applications.", "group_id": 292, "id": 120360}, {"user_id": 8013, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297880786.4482541, "message": "@matthias I think what you might not appreciate is that a lot of those programmers developing PHP code are not people you would want to work with. PHP got popular by appealing to non-programmers and low-skill coders. Take a look at a random WordPress extension, or hell, look at the WordPress API. It's all garbage, I wouldn't want someone who writes code like that to be creating Python modules.", "group_id": 292, "id": 122454}, {"user_id": 2458, "stars": [], "topic_id": 6266, "date_created": 1297881264.9835789, "message": "@jesse_dhillon This is true, and one of the motivating reasons for my switch to Python actually. After buying a $30 PHP application and discovering that the code was so awful that I would be better off completely rewriting it, I was pretty fed up with PHP. And you're right about Wordpress extensions. Python obviously tries to help coders write better code, but a bad programmer will be a bad programmer regardless of the language.", "group_id": 292, "id": 122513}]