convore.json/groups/tech-authors/ask-me-anything-about-python-cookbook-3rd-edition/messages.json

[{"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298218428.071012, "message": "...or anything else related to tech authoring.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 154016}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298218514.6641819, "message": "I've also done tech review, manuscript review, and a few other things for other publishers.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 154027}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298218490.886363, "message": "I've also served as Editor in Chief of Python Magazine and php|architect Magazine, been a contributing editor for Linux.com, and have written for various O'Reilly-owned content outlets (along with Linux Server Hacks vol. 2 and the upcoming Python Cookbook 3rd Ed.)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 154025}, {"user_id": 14356, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298293792.9862051, "message": "I \"am\" new ...", "group_id": 4669, "id": 158563}, {"user_id": 14356, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298293635.205575, "message": "I new to tech authoring. I have usually solve problems in code. Is there some tech authoring I can help with? I could use mentoring too. I am offering my help (Python, Linux, JS, etc.)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 158543}, {"user_id": 14356, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298293940.0373681, "message": "Just scratch my previous post and start reading here ==> I am new to tech authoring. I have usually solved problems with code. Is there some tech authoring I can help with? I could use mentoring too. I am offering my help (Python, Linux, JS, etc.) [I just found out - changing only a part of the sentence *does not work*]", "group_id": 4669, "id": 158572}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298295878.0740931, "message": "If you're new, one of the best things you can do is to blog about your experiences as a newbie coming from some other technology background, or coming in with no technical background if that's the case. Sometimes after years of working with technology, people who write about it lose some perspective and forget what it's like to be completely new. Sometimes even when they're trying to reach an audience of newbies they fail to hit the mark. More newbies posting about their experiences could be very helpful.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 158656}, {"user_id": 14356, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298324499.4450829, "message": "I have been programming for almost 30 years. The one thing that has stopped me in the past: \"Does anyone care what I have to say?\"", "group_id": 4669, "id": 171185}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298329977.5502851, "message": "@jkelkar:  I have >30yrs, and I've had this experience w/ things to say in teams (which I expect will be somewhat similar to writing):   There's \"what people expect / want to hear\" (crowd-publishing), and there's  \"what people don't know yet that will be helpful\" - which is a harder sell  (I counted, and expected as much from Jon Bently's \"Programming Perls\" some years ago - joyfully).", "group_id": 4669, "id": 175282}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [{"date_created": 1298338077.918396, "user_id": 14356}], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298330107.2890501, "message": "Mostly, I've been discouraged by the voices (both mine, and other's) that say \"what makes you so smart? why would you think someone hasn't already talked/done/said xyz?\" - and I think the \"just do it\" messages here are the right ones - a little at a time, and let it evolve.  We'll see.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 175290}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298330034.313168, "message": "So - I think in the latter case, can I be clear?  can I show nuggets of results (perls?) in a short time, and as I go?   And can I find an appropriate \"hook\" to start with (something people will want to hear, from which to introduce \"something new\").", "group_id": 4669, "id": 175285}, {"user_id": 14356, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298330411.9801509, "message": "@yarkot Thanks for the encouragement. Question to myself, \"Where to start?\" I'd better get my one duck in a row and get a march on. Any suggestions on where to blog?", "group_id": 4669, "id": 175327}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [{"date_created": 1298338186.593729, "user_id": 14356}], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298334169.002471, "message": "@jkelkar If you have knowledge to share, there are more people than you can possibly know who are likely to appreciate it, in whatever format you're willing to provide it in. There exists almost no content which hasn't been created 100 times before, and yet consumers abound for all of it, and then some. There's demand for more. If you can produce authoritative, accurate information, and have some inkling of a personality (hint: you do), then people want to hear what you have to say.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 175801}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [{"date_created": 1298422584.683461, "user_id": 14356}], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298353771.877677, "message": "@jkelkar  I took a fiction writing workshop once - just to get in the habit of writing, and the suggestion from there was to set aside a time, and always preserve that as writing time.  Even if you stare at a blank sheet of paper for a week everyday at (say) 6PM, eventually, your brain will get into that being writing time.   So my suggestion is to be psychological with yourself - write anything at a fixed time (like exercise before the marathon):  poetry, fiction, notes to yourself; and then when those muscles are loosened, shift to your topic, and keep running.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 177334}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [{"date_created": 1298423798.4797759, "user_id": 14356}], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298380814.3763881, "message": "I kept a journal regularly between ages 12 and 30 or so. I wrote in it every single day for many years, falling to 2-3 times per week later, and then to once every few months in more recent times as I've picked up blogging, had kids, started writing professionally, etc. Journaling, for me, was an enormous part of cultivating my writing skill: organizing thoughts, setting aside time, summarizing effectively, developing a 'voice'.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 178922}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298380969.9897189, "message": "If you're unsure of yourself as a writer, journaling is probably the best way to start. It's a safe haven to screw up in 'til your heart's content if nothing else. It's a place where you can write about things you're definitely authoritative about, because it's basically about you and your thoughts and life. If you've never had a comfort zone as a writer, it can be hard to just dive in, because you sort of don't know the feeling you're looking to get from your own writing. Journaling will help you understand what that is. A lot of your skill as a writer will happen by accident through journaling.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 178926}, {"user_id": 14356, "stars": [{"date_created": 1298428868.4082141, "user_id": 1760}], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298423800.8454909, "message": "@yarkot ,  @jonesy : I really appreciate the support. In fact I have started writing this morning (5:30-6:30). I do this first thing before checking mail etc. etc. In fact I have made a list of my positive and negative traits (there are many of the latter) and also a list of topics I wanted to talk about. Here is my first page. http://jkelkar.blogspot.com/ Now I just hope I keep at it. Thanks", "group_id": 4669, "id": 185350}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298426256.794769, "message": "@jkelkar you're smart to keep it short at first, I think. Good work.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 185474}, {"user_id": 3354, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298425761.450814, "message": "@jkelkar Nice first post!", "group_id": 4669, "id": 185455}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298426226.9419701, "message": "@jkelkar way to go, man. Keep it up!", "group_id": 4669, "id": 185471}, {"user_id": 1760, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298428872.5487959, "message": "@jkelkar Subscribed!", "group_id": 4669, "id": 185567}, {"user_id": 14356, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298481882.727936, "message": "@jonesy @holdenweb (just this one time) I have another post out, it takes so long to explain such a simple thing. It is really hard to be concise . I am thinking once I give the reader an idea of what to expect, I can shorten it a lot. How does one post python code, colored?", "group_id": 4669, "id": 188914}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298483803.580653, "message": "@jkelkar I'd say do 5 posts or so and then look for patterns that can be improved. If you just sit and pick apart every post you're going to feel suicidal ;-)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 189204}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298483920.819329, "message": "@jkelkar I went with a wider main content panel for my blog's theme specifically so I could post code and not have it look gross. It doesn't always work, because only relatively recently did I start trying to obey pep8 line length rules :)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 189244}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298483759.3612239, "message": "@jkelkar that's awesome! More of those please!", "group_id": 4669, "id": 189193}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298483859.9309239, "message": "@jkelkar The standard for posting Python code is typically colorized, but as long as it's readable and doesn't cause horizontal scrolling inside a frame or something, it's fine.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 189223}, {"user_id": 3354, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298506967.0263691, "message": "What's the best coorization tool? I haven't found a great one yet", "group_id": 4669, "id": 193875}, {"user_id": 218, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298526820.1582689, "message": "@holdenweb I think the standard choice is pygments. Even the ruby folks use it.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 195637}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [{"date_created": 1298596243.2904849, "user_id": 14356}], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298533297.987956, "message": "@jkelkar:  Oh!  Nice!   Yes, keep writing.  Earlier, @jonesy talked about journaling.   That's a good way to find \"your\" voice, for as you learn to write naturally, you can do the same in public, and that comes through.   In the fiction writing workshop, they called that the practice of getting out of your own way, of not self-censuring.  For fiction, it's about letting the story unfold.   For tech writing, it can be similar - not needing to know what you're going to say when you start writing - just let the story unfold.   This is where a \"publish\" switch, or posting your 2nd or 3rd revision can be useful, as writing \"stream\" for tech will certainly want some editing, cleanup.  But - hey! - that's better than waiting to write!", "group_id": 4669, "id": 195904}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [{"date_created": 1298570656.7159469, "user_id": 1760}, {"date_created": 1298596322.2237091, "user_id": 14356}], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298553881.3012359, "message": "@jkelkar - @yarkot makes a good point: it is sometimes assumed by those who don't write that people who *do* write \"just write\" and hit \"publish\" without a second look, and somehow it's all wonderful. So not true. First, any time I hit 'publish' on a first draft (I call them \"shotgun\" pieces), I'm usually sorry I did. Second, just because I edit a piece doesn't mean it's perfect either. It's easy to slip up in technical articles.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 197417}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298554325.155822, "message": "@jkelkar - also, technical writing in a space that allows comments is going to get you your fair share of flaming and criticism. One skill I *didn't* get from journaling was to read those comments critically and try to pull actual value out of them. After a little while you'll get faster at determining what to write off and what to consider more deeply.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 197456}, {"user_id": 1760, "stars": [{"date_created": 1298596572.449373, "user_id": 14356}], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298570707.3365419, "message": "+1, @jonesy -- I usually sit on anything significant for a couple of hours or a day so I can look at it fresh before I publish it.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 199685}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298571567.4370761, "message": "@doughellmann agreed -- and that's for the stuff I actually publish. My wordpress installation has something of a large \"Drafts\" collection, which I use as a sort of trash can. I have, maybe once or twice, actually gone to it to get wording from an older failure, but mostly it's trash :)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 199911}, {"user_id": 1760, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298574896.8449869, "message": "Yeah, I keep bits and pieces of outlines in org-mode files.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 200563}, {"user_id": 14356, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298596573.7149539, "message": "I wanted to get a couple of pieces out to \"find my voice\".  I have a tendency to over complicate my text. So far the best advice I've gotten about editing (that I can follow) is to remove anything that does not add to the piece, while not changing the meaning. It was far easier editing my kids' essays than my own, go figure.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 204738}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298597677.823596, "message": "@jkelkar \"On Writing Well\" is a great book. I also listened to the audio book some time ago (I think O'Reilly gave it to me after my first book). It's not a very long listen; very concise, and very usable. Highly recommended. http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAudiobook?id=357117419&s=143441", "group_id": 4669, "id": 204856}, {"user_id": 1760, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298599672.161979, "message": "@jkelkar I always find it easier to edit someone else's work than my own. Practice helps, though.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 205014}, {"user_id": 3354, "stars": [{"date_created": 1298645389.643676, "user_id": 5639}], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298610028.6740739, "message": "Maybe writing exercises at PyCon with \"pair writing\" would be interesting?", "group_id": 4669, "id": 205999}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298614596.39609, "message": "Pair writing - I like it.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 206324}, {"user_id": 14356, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298637642.8225119, "message": "@holdenweb @yarkot How would that go?", "group_id": 4669, "id": 207487}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298645490.804975, "message": "@holdenweb it has been well received in the past, and spawned several new regular bloggers.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 208244}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298645455.591496, "message": "@holdenweb good idea. Writing is something I advocate to folks in technology. I even have a presentation for technologists called \"Why you should write\"", "group_id": 4669, "id": 208241}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298656094.931684, "message": "@jonesy - will you be at PyCon?", "group_id": 4669, "id": 209955}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298656363.3942101, "message": "@yarkot yup! http://us.pycon.org/2011/schedule/presentations/274/", "group_id": 4669, "id": 209991}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298655646.144268, "message": "@jonesy Thanks for pointer to \"On Writing Well\" - just starting to listen now.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 209900}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298655905.0717139, "message": "@jkelker:  re: \"pair writing\" - there are two aspects that come to mind:  one part, like pair programming (so, if one person types, one talks, reads - no different, except if code is included in the topic, then one writes the prose, one the code \"feels\" right).   The second is from the fiction writing workshops:  review there amounted to learning to \"hear\" your writing like others will.  To that extent (in fiction workshop) a topic would be thrown out, everyone would spend 1/2 hr writing, and then someone else would read to the crowd (without anyone knowing who's you read), and group discussion on what it was saying, etc.   Author's (who know it's theirs) silently abstained thru this - their job was to take notes on the discussions / reactions.   Leave w/ task to revise your piece.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 209939}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298656059.090564, "message": "That pair writing workshop - does this sound good to anyone?   If someone wants to team up to run a writing workshop at openspaces @ pycon,  I'll seed / run one.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 209952}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298663976.9768331, "message": "We could figure out some give-away to the best 3 pieces (as judged by the crowd).", "group_id": 4669, "id": 210939}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298663858.017554, "message": "@jonesy - duh!  Ok - are you interesting in helping a pair writing open session?  I'm thinking we could start w/ why you should write (your talk); collect topic candidates from crowd; then a 45 minute write (could do \"pick a topic\"), then a one hour \"read someone's paper to the group\"", "group_id": 4669, "id": 210934}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298665215.029856, "message": "@yarkot Maybe - lemme give that some thought!", "group_id": 4669, "id": 211073}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298742544.809211, "message": "That scenario for a pair writing exercise is a straw-man, so feel free to add improvements, alternatives", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215021}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298746670.0830059, "message": "@yarkot I've created a monster! ;-)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215250}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298744180.3081009, "message": "@yarkot I'm just trying to think of a way to make it a draw, honestly. I'm not sure \"come write with us\" is going to bring many attendees. I've also never seen an open space, so I don't have a good understanding of the format for that.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215148}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298746431.8866279, "message": "@yarkot are there any videos of openspace sessions I can look at? I don't even know how long an openspace session lasts, or anything like that.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215243}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298746957.963872, "message": "@yarkot if you could think of some way to gauge actual interest in this, let me know.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215264}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298746935.7917349, "message": "@yarkot mind you, I'm not saying 'not a chance', but I think pair writing might be taking the concepts of pair programming out of context.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215263}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298746327.7359121, "message": "\"come write\"  is a veer from what I liked about what Steve offered:   \"Pair Writing\" excercise.   Draw:  help with your agile story, your blog, or other publication.  Get to see live how a pool or readers reacts, and learn how to see your work that way too.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215240}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298746357.983079, "message": "Come to think of it, we _could_ have the same user-interface coding openspace:  watch how people _try_ to use what you just wrote.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215241}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298746395.103339, "message": "... (but I'm not proposing to do that - just offering it as comparison)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215242}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298746471.757102, "message": "So --- pair writing:  just as in pair programming, try out getting your \"voice\" to be heard immediately, with a partner, with the early feedback benefits during writing.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215244}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298746496.7600141, "message": "I'm listening to that audio book now, and it is encouraging me that this will work.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215246}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298746727.9439659, "message": "@yarkot I think 5 people of 1500 will have an interest in that. Not exactly: 100 people will, but 5 will have the balls to actually subject themselves to pair writing. Writing is far more personal to people than coding is.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215254}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298746836.480763, "message": "@yarkot my experience in giving presentations about this is that the reason a presentation works is because it doesn't force an immediate departure from one's comfort zone. The presentation is one-way (for the most part), and people can come ask questions in private afterward. I give tech presentations too, and the writing one always gets me a larger % of attendees sending me private emails and grabbing me in hallways.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215260}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298746871.160573, "message": "it's like people don't want to expose themselves as closet novelists to a crowd of people or something. Do they think we'll out them as romance novelists or something?", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215261}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298746872.1492331, "message": ";-P", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215262}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749463.4211321, "message": "Well, you're back into presentation land :)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215331}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750266.3184061, "message": "This talked about how life and programming are related: http://www.ccsr.uiuc.edu/web/Techreports/1990-94/CCSR-91-14.pdf", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215381}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750421.8400581, "message": "Bingo!", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215394}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750686.927866, "message": "Use your best judgement on that presentation; no worries.   Maybe in your \"pair-writin\" with me, you can inject anything useful from it.... no worries", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215411}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749145.77896, "message": "So, my personal mantra has been (for ~15 yrs in fact) - don't code for more than 15 minutes w/o having something running;  if you feel you need to, you've not thought something thru: stop coding, and think about it a bit more.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215321}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749834.4680481, "message": "not critique - work together.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215349}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750250.9987299, "message": "So... about 15yrs ago, a friend of mine from back in Bell Labs days wrote this, and we talked a lot about the processes of systems design - I was busy training thousands in \"team skills\" so code reviews wouldn't suck.....", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215379}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750316.6976759, "message": "Then just try it.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215385}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750342.124352, "message": "Then have people experience someone reading \"their blog\"  to the crowd anonymously, and watch the reaction / understanding / etc.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215386}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750393.679775, "message": "@yarkot I think *you* should run it. I can play a supporting role, but you clearly have a vision for this.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215391}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750540.4647031, "message": "yes", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215399}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751089.4232049, "message": "me too.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215431}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749821.488591, "message": "I think once someone understands that someone is going to sit next to them and, like, critique their writing, they're likely to leave.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215347}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750292.0131049, "message": "Bottom line:  too much structure causes rigidity in systems, and extinction in species", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215382}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750569.003175, "message": "ok.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215402}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750617.61114, "message": "Well, if _I_ get the setup presentation together, will _you_ pair-write (or at least review, critique) with me before the conf.?", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215406}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749072.3473949, "message": "@jonesy -  point(s) taken... I'll noodle on this.   My personal axe on this is that writing to coding is a continuum, and getting the right thing in code depends on thinking it thru in non-code (i.e. exploring, and capturing that in writing).   Tech writing can have many audiences - as a precursor to a code project one of them.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215320}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749164.1430759, "message": "I think you're worried about entering people from the top end of that spectrum;", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215322}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749193.915627, "message": "I'm thinking (and the \"pair\" thing, I'll admit, hooked me) of how to bootstrap from where people are, and bring them up a notch.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215323}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749327.6327071, "message": "If you think of layers of writing (and what the audience will be) - there's [let's say lowest] coders of a project, and a project client perhaps;  then abstracting that more into a class of products / problems (a manifesto for a product line, or set of problems), and higher from that: a general approach for some technical problem domain [and perhaps above that more scholarly theorems and generalities).", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215325}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749387.444793, "message": "So - as with journaling, getting people to just write (rather than \"just code\") is the objective.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215326}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749425.8741679, "message": "Think of an example topic:   \"How to migrate  xyz from Python2x to Python3, step by step.\"", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215329}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749446.9072909, "message": "or \"How I migrated...\"", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215330}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749481.5164039, "message": "And the \"goal\" I would set up is _not_ to submit to a publisher, but to increase useful community blogging.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215332}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749609.544065, "message": "That audio book is on target:  keep it clear, keep it simple... and making it such is hard work.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215337}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749691.4322309, "message": "RE: \"presentation land\" --- I'd say that's how to NOT write any more than a sketch, and wimp out by talking.   Writing it, without presetation is a different task.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215341}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749876.0760989, "message": "But you might be right -  team behavior (as in writing) is something to teach.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215353}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749988.4512229, "message": "But I wouldn't pander to the massees, rather to a particular set of people.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215362}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750039.2634621, "message": "I would hate to \"be up for it\" and 10 minutes into it have my \"pair\" run.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215367}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750305.4916141, "message": "1) I think you're right that a 3-hour slot would probably be required, but 2) This is my first PyCon, and I'll be meeting a lot of people I've worked with in the past for the first time in person, and I'm only staying through Sunday, and I'm already doing a tutorial, and I'd also like to volunteer, so I'm not sure I want to improvise a 3-hour open space on writing.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215383}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750421.4621251, "message": "absolutely.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215393}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749488.717885, "message": "@yarkot wrote this some time ago about parallels between coding and writing. http://www.protocolostomy.com/2009/09/09/if-you-code-you-should-write/", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215333}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749547.1876931, "message": "I wouldn't mind seeing or producing a \"Writing Patterns for Developers\". There definitely are useful patterns, article/document \"templates\" etc., that could help some people figure out how they want to present an idea.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215335}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749661.1589999, "message": "@yarkot it's a great guide. I don't necessarily follow it on, say, my blog. I should probably edit my writing more there.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215339}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749767.3599939, "message": "@yarkot I meant that your flow of ideas regarding an open space seems to be leading more in the direction of a presentation than a pair writing session.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215342}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749818.8339469, "message": "Ah... I see - well, yes ... a writing dojo is more what I would describe what I was thinking about.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215346}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749837.1171639, "message": "co-write.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215351}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749865.7944379, "message": "@yarkot how much time is alotted to an open space session?", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215352}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749897.245295, "message": "@jonesy:  as much as you want, but the timeslots are hour slots typically", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215354}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749913.457936, "message": "@yarkot even in coding, lots of people have to be taught, and have to adjust to pair programming. Some reject it and run.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215355}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749921.293643, "message": "so 3 adjacent slots is what I was starting my thinking from.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215357}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749961.3441279, "message": "Oh sure - I talked w/ Steve Holden abou this a year or two ago:  I wanted a full day for a tutorial because that's what teaching team processes takes at minimum", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215360}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298749968.8158159, "message": "@yarkot and is it more of a group session with someone acting as host/facilitator? Or is it meant to be more of a presentation? Or is it a sprint? I don't fully 'get' what an open space session is.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215361}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750021.4961979, "message": "The setup hour would setup some idea of what will happen, what to expect (and hopefully get those that are going to run to do that before the writing session starts)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215363}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750117.615489, "message": "heh :)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215372}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750033.3012669, "message": "@yarkot what do you mean? I *want* the masses to be writing. I want everyone to write", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215364}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750121.239022, "message": ":-)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215373}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751142.387198, "message": "I'll look in my copious collection of backups tonight.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215436}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751168.659189, "message": "yep. I've given it more than once, so I pretty much know it.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215439}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751240.553952, "message": "ok", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215448}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750097.0502801, "message": "@jonesy:  the tea party writes....  my point is, address those that are at the doorway of being ready to try a writing excercise - NOT try to get everyone be able to take the excercise right now.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215371}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750354.1412261, "message": "This by itself would be a useful exercise.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215388}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750149.307862, "message": "(Not to diss any politics, but rather say lots \"want to govern\", and some are ready for the task, some just are not...)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215375}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750312.2218249, "message": "So - I would set up no more than essential ground rules in a presentation / setup.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215384}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750373.6220269, "message": "OH!", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215389}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750379.3173239, "message": "@Jonesy!", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215390}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750411.9881899, "message": "Now worries - just volunteer to assist me, then, and let me try to run this, give me feedback before, and a helping hand during", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215392}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750424.521173, "message": "Exactly", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215395}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750467.957494, "message": "So - that presentation you'd mentioned - can you share? Would there be structure in it that might be useful?", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215397}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750943.979598, "message": "I'll send you something to your personal email, if that's ok.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215420}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750988.3900721, "message": "I've got other stuff committed today, but will send something Sunday.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215424}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751032.121208, "message": "yeah - I hear ya about the 3 hrs; no worries;  Show up if you can;  you'll figure out live if it makes sense to help, ride a little shotgun", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215427}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751083.0576789, "message": "Ok - back to chores, and thinking about this a bit.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215430}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751182.555146, "message": "that will be more than good enough", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215444}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751222.5353401, "message": "Let's say I'll email you something (probably a g'docs link) by monday (maybe sunday, but I don't know)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215447}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751352.440742, "message": "but we need about 25 bodies for swag/registration - so some idea of when people are available helps.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215458}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750490.371912, "message": "the 'why you should write' presentation?", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215398}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750546.867034, "message": "It's kind of tied to my personal experience. There are emails in there and I relay my personal story about how I started out writing online to show people how easy it actually is if you're even the slightest bit assertive.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215400}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750553.8718431, "message": "so I don't think it'd be useful to anyone but me.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215401}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750957.7311389, "message": "sure, send it along", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215422}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751129.5263419, "message": "shit, this presentation is *not* on this hard drive!", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215434}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751307.3371799, "message": "oh! I thought it was a 'show up & roll up your sleeves' thing unless you wanted to do something, like, important. I'll go check out the signups.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215451}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751320.682523, "message": "thanks", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215453}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751322.2469649, "message": "!", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215454}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750609.0116179, "message": "I'll take another look at the slides tonight and see if the basic structure of the talk would be useful to see.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215404}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750621.5365701, "message": "Maybe the personal bits could be easily removed/replaced.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215407}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750633.145983, "message": "yeah, sure.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215408}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750751.8412011, "message": "So - if you're up for that level, and if you'll show and ride shotgun for at least the meat of potentially 3 hrs, then I'd say we're on, and we can figure out how to \"market\" interest as we go.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215413}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750806.4598861, "message": "But you can think about that - and see what my startup presentation looks like first.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215415}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750950.9630809, "message": "k, I'll think it over. Like I mentioned, I'm preparing for the tutorial, and writing the book, and hoping to volunteer, and meet lots of people and stuff. I'm not looking for another 3-hour hard commitment. If there were real interest out there, I could have my arm twisted. Maybe.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215421}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750964.4009881, "message": "I'm looking for that presentation right now.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215423}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751279.4293661, "message": "Its what I did my first pycon, and why I\"ve kept coming ever since.  Nice community.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215450}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298750999.3332651, "message": "A lightning talk could help gage interest too.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215426}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751114.3155279, "message": "(and listening to that e-book, which is completely consistent so far with my instincts, and what I think / say in other, non-writing areas... so I like it...)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215433}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751148.4095731, "message": "No worries - the essence of it is in your head, and that will be good enough...", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215438}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751258.87181, "message": "Looking forward to having you volunteer @ PyCon (dont' forget to signup)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215449}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751313.22052, "message": "It's burried a bit too deep:  http://us.pycon.org/2011/volunteer/onsite/signup/", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215452}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751323.0678339, "message": "It's that too", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215455}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751374.0312901, "message": "I meant 35... on average, thru all the hours....", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215461}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751170.1961119, "message": "free your mind of looking for it; just remember it, and conjure up what matters when you see my setup stuff.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215440}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751431.2133131, "message": "and there's much more than that for volunteering (taping down power strips, setting up the rooms, etc.)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215462}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751446.980166, "message": "ok - off to my Sat. --- thanks for the interaction", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215463}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751455.9520171, "message": "np!", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215464}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298751459.8269889, "message": "ty!", "group_id": 4669, "id": 215465}, {"user_id": 3354, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298830980.8209751, "message": "If you want to make it more relevant I suppose we could call it \"How ti Write More and Better About Python\"", "group_id": 4669, "id": 218822}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298868921.1090839, "message": "@holdenweb - Steve, actually I was thinking about \"How to write like a human\" ;-)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 223571}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298869000.1440649, "message": "But seriously, I'm going to have my hand at a lightning, and an outline to kickstart it in the morning, and if I think from that I like it, I'll share more.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 223574}, {"user_id": 3354, "stars": [{"date_created": 1298870933.872915, "user_id": 1}], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1298869702.155812, "message": "Let's anyway try and encourage as much writing as we can that week.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 223592}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299105949.2577629, "message": "@holdenweb, @jonesy - tell me what you think: http://us.pycon.org/2011/openspaces/index/, http://us.pycon.org/2011/openspaces/pairwriting/ ;  feedback appreciated.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 254263}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299120050.0271609, "message": "@yarkot that looks pretty cool!", "group_id": 4669, "id": 256390}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299127777.237226, "message": "@jonesy -  maybe; maybe not.    Got any topic ideas? - to keep it writing about python, not be about code examples (they won't \"read\" well), and within the 15-20 minutes of writing constraint.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 257792}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299157608.116627, "message": "@yarkot I might disagree a tad here. I think it's fair to say it has to be about Python to keep it relevant to the environment and audience, but outside of that, I'd rather see 'no holds barred'. Writing with code examples presents its own challenges, and those should definitely be addressable at such a gathering.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 259987}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299157678.1188171, "message": "@yarkot if they have a bit of code they've been wanting to write about, let them, and then help them figure out how to wrap text around that code to make it understandable, relatable, and give the code some context.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 259997}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299157696.051209, "message": "@yarkot I admit to having some difficulty with this myself. Mainly, I'm too long-winded.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 260001}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299256502.0436189, "message": "@jonesy - thanks.   I've been collecting a lot of private feedback, and am going to make big revision to page today (the basic tools I'll hand people, the structures you can put to use are all the same anyway - it's in the marketing & presentation....)   Later this PM (afternoon or evening... can't tell yet)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 270996}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299256523.3972449, "message": "@jonesy - and thanks for the feedback...", "group_id": 4669, "id": 271001}, {"user_id": 15977, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299354354.5368619, "message": "Any topics you're especially looking for recipes for?", "group_id": 4669, "id": 277449}, {"user_id": 15977, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299357892.4420631, "message": "@jonesy but I put them all in the documentation... :-)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 277617}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299357753.1410749, "message": "@voidspace both Dave and I are anti-fibonacci, at least as far as the book is concerned :)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 277612}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299357623.8112359, "message": "@voidspace I do plan to illustrate mocking using Mock, so if you want to come up with some recipes in that area, that'd be great (there will be a chapter devoted to testing-related recipes)", "group_id": 4669, "id": 277610}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299357706.2232461, "message": "@voidspace that said, Python is a very big space, and any recipes that are relatively concise, illustrate a useful feature of the language, and do so in a practical way will be considered.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 277611}, {"user_id": 15977, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299357880.148627, "message": "@jonesy I just came up with a *bunch* of mock recipes", "group_id": 4669, "id": 277616}, {"user_id": 3354, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299449314.6586211, "message": "I;ll need to check my schedule before I know whether I can make it. There's a sponsr dinner that evening.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 282038}, {"user_id": 1930, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299457088.3251581, "message": "@jonesy:  hopefully this openspace is a bit of an emprovement:  http://us.pycon.org/2011/openspaces/importhuman/   - c'mon out!", "group_id": 4669, "id": 282667}, {"user_id": 4120, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299487405.2176499, "message": "There's a meetup in SF called Shut Up and Write. A group meets regularly to...", "group_id": 4669, "id": 286297}, {"user_id": 4120, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299487579.1015379, "message": "@jonesy - I've always wanted a book that talks about not only how to follow a recipe.. but discusses what else can be made from these ingredients.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 286306}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299530492.958101, "message": "@brianball there *are* a few books that take the tack of building actual projects using Python. For example http://www.amazon.com/Python-Create-Modify-James-Knowlton/dp/0470259329/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b", "group_id": 4669, "id": 290865}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299530391.8789921, "message": "@brianball I understand, but I think that book would probably be a 3000-page anvil of a tome. The goal is to be concise in the recipes, and talk about variations on the theme in the 'Discussion' part of the recipe, which the 2nd edition does to some degree, and we'll continue to do in the 3rd edition. We can't cover everything, but we hope to cover enough ground to inspire the reader without making the physical presence of the book be intimidating or ridiculous.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 290854}, {"user_id": 5639, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299530557.387327, "message": "@brianball the problem with those books is that (speaking from my experience with the PHP community) a TON of people take those recipes as the gospel and go implementing production systems using that cut-n-paste code, and that's not the intent of a book like that.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 290877}, {"user_id": 15977, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299532205.51279, "message": "I always thought the cookbook did a pretty good job of dissecting the \"ingredients\" and explaining why they go well together and what all the moving parts are for. It's much more than a book on \"here are a few specific examples to cover a few specific tasks\".", "group_id": 4669, "id": 291230}, {"user_id": 15977, "stars": [], "topic_id": 7663, "date_created": 1299532249.1715529, "message": "The nice thing is that usually the recipes *are* useful in their own right, but many (most?) of them aim to teach principles and building blocks (ingredients) useful in all sorts of other situations too.", "group_id": 4669, "id": 291238}]