convore.json/groups/dramatica/a-romantic-comedy-synopsis-use-to-make-a-walkthrough/messages.json

[{"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319006437.7505071, "message": "I remain very interested in the concept which has been mentioned a few times here: creating a walkthrough demonstrating how to start with a story concept, find its storyform, and then develop it as far as Dramatica can take it.  The romantic comedy idea I've been playing with this week seems suitable for such a walkthrough - it's a simple plot with two main characters and a genre many people are familiar with.  So I'm going to try to synopsize the concept here as briefly as possible.  I'm not going to make any suggestions about what its storyform could be because I want to see what the group come up with.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2383245}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319006802.4375789, "message": "Act 1 - A single woman decides she wants a child and is secure enough financially and socially to raise a child by herself.  She'd really rather have a loving mate who would help her raise a child, but she's failed to find that for years and she's tired of waiting.  She'll take one last shot at it - there is a town nearby which has strong local beliefs and traditions about soulmates and helping them find each other.  If this succeeds, wonderful, she'll get her baby because her soulmate will sire it.  But if (when) it fails, that town is a good vacationing place where she can go to a bar and pick up a one-night-stand to sire her baby.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2383265}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319008786.6415091, "message": "Act 4 - The woman sleeps with the man, gets herself pregnant, and returns to her hometown according to plan.  However the man finds he can't stand the fact that she's gone.  The affair had distracted him from the odd experience of the matchmaking interview and the anonymous favor that was randomly done for him, but now he investigates and finds that things don't add up.  And didn't that interviewer rather resemble her lover, maybe a cousin or aunt of hers?  He discovers that his lover was staying at the hotel and tracks her back to her hometown, intending to plead with her to become more permanent lovers, even if this requires him to move to her hometown.  But when he gets there he finds out that she's pregnant and the whole story comes out.  He decides children are tolerable if they make her happy and he can keep her.  He gives her back the stone, which he has bought with him, and this is his culture's equivalent to a marriage proposal.  She accepts, yay happy ending.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2383350}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319007453.969799, "message": "Act 2 - The woman is introduced to the idea of soulmate locating magic.  Traditionally all the men in the town choose a pretty stone and perform a spell to make that stone call to the man's soulmate.  These are placed in a garden anyone can walk through.  The woman doesn't really believe in magic but finds the idea charming.  She walks through the garden admiring the stones and is surprised when one seems to call to her.  She is afraid to hope that it will really lead her to her soulmate because she can't face the pain of being disappointed again.  So instead of going through the usual channels of publicly claiming the stone and being introduced to its creator, she steals the stone and covertly looks up who created it in the public directory.  Then she disguises herself, making herself seem older and/or less attractive so that even a real soulmate would not feel strongly attracted to her if he saw her.  Then she poses as a servant of \"the woman who felt drawn by the stone\" and interviews the stone's creator using a matchmaking questionnaire.  The man answers all the questions the way the woman wants to hear except the most important one - when asked about children he says he doesn't like children and doesn't particularly want any.  Barely managing to hide her crushing disappointment the woman says this concludes the interview and leaves.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2383288}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319008286.780623, "message": "Act 3 - The woman is depressed but her path now seems clear - return the stone to the garden so hopefully someone else will feel drawn to it and be the man's soulmate, because he seemed really hopeful and eager at the prospect of finally meeting his fated lover.  She knows this will be difficult, maybe even painful, because the spell on the stone calls to her such that she wants to hold it close and is very reluctant to abandon it.  She feels guilty for having got the man's hopes up only to dash them by rejecting him.  This would be particularly embarrassing and pitiable in local culture if it were known that a man was rejected by his soulmate.  She hits on the idea of doing the man an anonymous favor which will make him happy, and decides this will karmically balance out her rejection of him.  Satisfied with this, she proceeds to try to carry out her plan.  The anonymous favor part works great, it does make the man very happy and she doesn't get caught.  Putting the stone back makes her cry, but she manages to do it and is somewhat proud of herself afterwards for having done the right thing.  The one night stand part, however, does not go so well.  She goes to the bar, acceptably nice and attractive men flirt with her, but she just cannot bring herself to be interested in any of them after having met someone so close to perfect.  So she finds herself back where she started the act, in her hotel room wracking her brains about what to do.  She has an epiphany - she has been so concerned about the man's potential unhappiness that she hasn't given fair consideration to her own needs.  What the man doesn't know won't hurt him - she will appear to him looking attractive, get him to sleep with her, if necessary lie about being on birth control, then once she's sure she's pregnant she'll go home with her baby, and he'll be left with a nice memory and never be put upon by being asked to help raise a child he's not interested in.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2383332}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319008847.9126649, "message": "Ok, anyone is welcome to take a guess at anything here toward the goal of identifying a storyform. :)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2383356}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319172914.0011611, "message": "Is this story about finding ones soul mate or about hearts desires (which would include having a baby for example)?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2398267}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319178515.355494, "message": "Well, if for finding you are thinking Obtaining and heart's desires you are thinking Innermost desires, any storyform that has Obtaining as a goal of one throughline will have Innermost Desires as the goal of another throughline.  And the other two throughline's goals will be Changing One's Nature and The Future.  The question is which goal goes with which throughline.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2398613}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319195658.1064811, "message": "I wanted to generally state what this story was about. How's this, \"This is a story about a goal oriented woman who has all but given up on finding her soulmate wants to have a baby.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2399377}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319195978.6598899, "message": "My feeling is the Overall Story is Fixed Attitude.  Everyone has a fixed attitude about soulmates.  It seems everyone believes that there is one \"soul mate\" in the world for each individual.  In that line everyone is concerned with Innermost Desire.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2399390}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319229508.6976941, "message": "OS Throughline of Fixed Attitude and OS Goal of Fixed Attitude seem reasonable.  Perhaps the two main disagreeing Fixed Attitudes are the focus on children vs. the focus on love.  The MC wants children even if she has to sacrifice love.  The IC wants love without the complication of children.  For a statement of what the story is about that is pretty good.  Or how about: \"A creative woman who wants to have a baby finds this big current goal in conflict with her smaller long-standing goals of finding love and acting morally.\"  Her angsting over the ethics of her actions seems important enough to include it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2402730}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319237161.134655, "message": "OK.  That sentence is a little convoluted (i know that sounds condescending, I don't mean to be. I am tired and my brain can't think of a better way to say it right now <g>) but I hear what you are saying.  The Relationship Story is situation.  Their relationship seems to be concerned with situations outside themselves, dependent upon the rocks and if they sing to you or if the right person walks by your rock and that person hears the rock sing to her.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2403536}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319240378.8683169, "message": "Heh, my sentences are often convoluted, that's one thing I always hack on when I make a first pass at editing fiction I have written.  Sorry for any confusion.  Situation might also include the MC traveling from her home town to \"romance town\" and back again.  It doesn't seem very intuitive to me that these situation things correspond to the relationship throughline, but I'll go along with it.  Situation might even stretch to include the fact that when the MC doesn't look like herself the man doesn't recognize or react to her as a soulmate.  Though the part about her choosing to wear a disguise would be in Manipulation.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2403934}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319240874.011914, "message": "True.  These are just first responses.  I guess you could see wearing the disguise as an activity to learn or understand.  Wearing the disguise could be just a methodology to learn what she needs to make her decision.  Do you want to make an argument for something that feels more intuitive?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2403978}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319243133.4076991, "message": "Well, my initial idea of what the throughlines are was the same as what you came up with: OS Situation, MC/IC Fixed Attitude, MC Activity, IC Manipulation.  But that resulted in a plot progression where all the signposts seemed to be in the wrong throughline.  So for my second attempt I used: OS Activity, MC/IC Manipulation, MC Situation, IC Fixed Attitude.  I'm not sure which version I prefer.  But I'll list my reasons for the second version so you can compare and say whether you agree or disagree.\n\nOS Activity - Everyone is either making soulmate stones or looking through the collection to find one that calls to them.  Both characters investigate the other's identity, travel to the other's location, and make an attempt to obtain something from the other.  MC/IC Manipulation: The MC wears the costume specifically to manipulate how the IC reacts to her.  The contemplation in the story is primarily the MC evaluating her actions toward the IC and evaluating how she would feel in different possible versions of a relationship with the IC or lack of a relationship with him; also the IC reevaluates his desire to avoid children the the context of his relationship with the MC.  Any memories involved are mainly of the lonely lack of a relationship and hopeful seeking of a relationship.  MC Situation, well, I often have trouble seeing the relevance of past/present/change/future to anything in my stories; but the MC does seem to be worrying about possible change in a way no one else is, and she's at least as focused on the future as anyone else.  IC Fixed Attitude, he doesn't want kids and he embodies local culture wrt the magic stones and soulmates by believing firmly that a woman who felt the call of his stone is his soulmate and he should definitely be with her, it's unthinkable to just let her just leave.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2404251}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319430188.0331481, "message": "there is the morality/self interest.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418563}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319318991.117614, "message": "Could the theme include how finding ones soul mate is not enough.  There is still work to be done.  I couple, no matter how ideal, must work together to find a shared vision of a life together.  Even ideal matches have different goals and to have a good and healthy relationship they must have a shared vision of a life together, not my goals and not your goals, but our goals.  Because I love you I want you to be happy and because you love me you want me to be happy.  It is not compromise. it is a third alternative that is better than either of the single hearts desires alone.  The sum is greater than it's parts.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2408962}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319319406.22314, "message": "The challenge with more than one person working on this is that when creating a story we could choose any story form and tell this romantic story. (imho) it would be skewed.  So, will you take the lead and make final decisions?  The \"learning the lesson of creating a shared vision of a life together\" would be my story focus.  I like the idea that even soul mates have to work at having a successful relationship.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2408997}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319326169.2945681, "message": "Although it's a pleasant theme I don't think that the theme of work to make a relationship successful fits with the plot as-is because the MC and IC aren't together as a couple until the end of the story.  I've seen romances with that theme and they have to start farther along the progression of the relationship, the characters need to already get together or be together at the beginning.  So that could work as a sequel of this, but is not a good fit for this plot as laid out above.  I could see the \"finding one's soulmate is not enough\" part though, since the woman chooses having a child over having her soulmate.\n\nAs far as who makes choices for the storyform, I think it would be valuable to any readers of a walkthrough to see us consider different possibilities and explain why each might be chosen.  I'd really like to discuss in more detail in what ways each of the two possibilities for throughline assignment would skew the story's development.  It is probably a common problem for new and intermediate Dramatica users to accidentally choose a storyform that skews their story in a way different than they intended, and as a result feels awkward or unnatural.  I've had that problem multiple times.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2409670}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319327774.276154, "message": "Let's look at Activity first, I often find that one of the easiest types of content to identify in any story because it's easy to identify actions within a plot outline.  Not all the actions in the story will be part of Activity, but if we make a list of all the actions in the plot, the lion's share of them should be in whichever throughline is Activity, right?  So what have we got.  The IC and others in his town make soulmate stones.  The MC travels to romance town, to the soulmate stone garden within romance town, to the IC's house, to a bar, and back to her hometown.  The IC travels to the MC's hotel and home town.  The MC and IC each briefly investigate each other.  The MC in disguise interviews the IC, then later seduces him and uses him to get herself pregnant.  So which throughline is the majority of that in?  I think we can safely rule out IC because the MC is doing at least twice as many actions as the MC and he only takes action in response to outside pressures, specifically his culture's instructions and the MC's vanishing act.  Now the question is whether the IC is taking actions to a significant degree or not.  If not, Activity would have to be the MC throughline.  If yes, then the question is whether these actions are being taken by everyone, or whether they are being done specifically by the two characters to each other.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2409865}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319415398.839334, "message": "So Overall Story in Activity.  You made a pretty good argument for this as well as the Relationship Story in Manipulation.  The Main Character's Story is in Situation.  Her Situation which is unbalanced is she does not have a soul mate and she does not have a child.  She is focused on changing this situation.  The Impact Character Story is Fixed Attitude.  He believes in this soulmate stone magic.  He also has a fixed attitude of not wanting children which causes conflict in the story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2416862}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319422531.5877681, "message": "That sounds good to me.  Let's move forward with this as the identifications of the throughlines then.  What shall we do next, character dynamics, plot dynamics, throughline issues...?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2417704}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319422816.3804369, "message": "Do you think it's obviously a type 1D here or could a case be made for type 1B or one of the others?  http://www.dramatica.com/downloads/BigFour2Large.png", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2417751}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319426333.0012209, "message": "I am not sure but I like 1C and 1D and I am leaning toward 1C.  I am more comfortable start with the main character.  Is she change or steadfast?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418162}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319427279.2786551, "message": "I'm not sure whether she's change or steadfast.  If I had to guess, steadfast.  She does have a fairly big moment of epiphany at the end of act three where she changes approach to getting what she wants, but she keeps the same goal the whole way through.  The IC changes his Fixed Attitude which is more central to him.  (And that's a general rule, one of the MC and IC must be steadfast and the other change, so when I decide that I always look at the two characters and ask myself which changes more profoundly.)  I do think that the MC is an intuitive do-er (do-er is required by her througline being Situation anyway), while the IC is a logical be-er.  Do you agree, or have any arguments to the contrary?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418271}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319429876.1092219, "message": "Her growth is stop.  What is the situation she is waiting for to stop?  If it were start I would say she wants her life with a family to start.  In this case I will say she is waiting for the loneliness to stop.  No, that is a be-er statement.  She is waiting to stop being alone.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418533}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319428033.8838739, "message": "yes, I agree, She is definitely a do-er and now that you say it she IS an intuitive do-er.  She looks at the whole and comes to conclusions.  I don't see her as a linear thinker.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418344}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319430187.8121109, "message": "I would have guessed she was start and the IC was stop, but you're right this configuration of throughlines requires the MC to be stop.  I wonder why.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418562}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319428420.8165469, "message": "I also agree that she is a steadfast character. It adds a different dynamic that everyone is concerned with obtaining a soul-mate but she has all but given up on a soul-mate and her main goal is to have a child.  She's not the antagonist but it's almost like she is the contagonist in the overall story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418385}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319428856.3744161, "message": "Glad you agree. :)  That's why I switched in the adjective creative for her instead of goal-oriented when we were talking about the theme.  She IS goal oriented, but many or most goal oriented people are more logical or linear thinkers, so I thought that might be misleading.  I think the fact that she does the man an unrelated favor to \"balance her karma\" after abstractly harming him by not telling him she's his soulmate is the clearest example of her intuitive or holistic thought.  From this outline it's not as clear but I think the way the MC is thinking about the future as a situation where several factors may or may not be present and together they add up to whether each possible future would make her happy or not.  The IC on the other hand, his thoughts are quite linear goal-solution pairs: Everyone knows soulmates are good, therefore he'll make a soulstone like everyone else.  He finds children annoying in general, therefore he won't have any.  He wants to keep his soulmate, if she demands children to be with him then ok, compromise on that.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418427}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319429925.9019899, "message": "That's interesting, seeing her as the contagonist of the overall story; the OS has kind of a fate/destiny push going on with the soulmate cultural beliefs and magic, while the MC is avoiding this by not reporting that the stone called her, wearing a disguise which prevents her soulmate from recognizing her as such, and being willing to just leave him and go home even after they have become lovers, which is unthinkable from the point of view of everyone else.  It fits with my image of her as being almost an anti-villain.  Have you seen the movie Megamind, or Dr. Horrible's sing-along blog?  The main characters of those stories are official supervillains, which the woman here clearly isn't, but they are in the same position of having a different, non black-and-white understanding of what is \"good\" than everyone else.  They take the sneaky approach because it works, and if that makes people who see all untruth as Evil with a capital E see them as villains, oh well.  They have their own personal moral code and are true to it.  Megamind and Dr. Horrible are both change characters (I assume) which is shown by the fact that they both end up subsumed into \"everyone else\"s idea of right and wrong at the end: one become a hero, the other becomes a true villain instead of an anti-villain.  The MC of this story does neither; she sticks to her beliefs and the IC bends instead.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418537}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319430548.056191, "message": "it's the relationship of the MC situation to the OS activity.  the horizontal relationship.  That doesn't really say why but that is how the program works.  I would think it would be more if a character moves from a state to a process or visa verso.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418596}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319431358.208154, "message": "Oh wait this is OS Issue not MC. *facepalm*", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418693}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319430863.528337, "message": "I just got to the part in that podcast where they are talking about this quad actually.  It's at 1h40min (in the regular download, I assume the podcast format is the same).  What they are doing is looking at the elements in each to see if any fit the problem, solution, symptom, and response.  Then using that as an indicator of which is the issue.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418632}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319430062.6657529, "message": "She stops putting others before herself, stops ignoring her own desires, stops being overly cautious about ethics, or something along those lines?  More practically, she stops hiding herself from her soulmate/avoiding sex with him.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418550}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319430306.2709279, "message": "I could see an equal argument for approach/attitude though.  Problem is that she is changing her attitude about the morality of self interest and as a result of her changed attitude, changes her approach.  It's all in there somewhere.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418574}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319431065.0898459, "message": "Self Interest's sub quad is Pursuit/Avoid ans Control/Uncontrolled; that does seem to describe the MC movement from restraining herself and avoiding the IC to not restraining herself and seducing the IC.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418660}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319431762.9744599, "message": ":o)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418722}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319432376.5619521, "message": "Do you have a feeling about the story driver or limit.  I would say it is definitely an option lock.   Lately I like to leave the driver blank because it gives me more options and make the story fit the driver but do you have a strong feeling about it.?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418770}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319432632.110182, "message": "As far as Outcome I was going to say Success but now I might leave it blank.  It seems there could be varying degrees of success and failure.  Does everyone obtain a soul-mate?  The Judgement is good. Our main Character gets her child and the soul-mate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418797}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319433875.334847, "message": "Bleh my post didn't show up.  I wrote \"Definitely an Option Lock. I'd say Decision for Driver, though we could leave it blank if it was interfering with other possibilities. I'd say Judgment is good, but I'm not sure about Outcome. The MC does fail at keeping her child secret from the IC, and fails at her decision not to obtain the IC as her soulmate/husband.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418882}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319434076.9844191, "message": "On the other hand she succeeds at obtaining her child, succeeds at getting the IC to sire the child (is that another kind of obtaining?) and the IC temporarily succeeds at obtaining his soulmate as his lover, which is the main thing he wanted, even though he doesn't realize it's her.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2418891}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319435847.9580491, "message": "Meh, I guess since the OS is Activity - Obtaining, and pretty much everyone in the story obtains what they were after, it must be Success.  Would be nice if we could get a third opinion though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2419008}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319438327.567697, "message": "Note for record-keeping:  At the current point there are 16 storyforms remaining.  The choices which have been made so far are: Resolve - Steadfast.  Growth - Stop (implied by other choices).  Approach - Doer.  PS Style - Intuitive.  Driver: Decision.  Limit: Optionlock.  Outcome: Success.  Judgment - Good.  OS Throughline - Activity (implies MC/IC Throughline - Manipulation).  MC Throughline - Situation (implies IC Throughline - Fixed Attitude).  OS Concern - Obtaining (Implies MC/IC Concern - Changing One's Nature, MC Concern - Future, and IC Concern - Innermost Desires).  At this point the OS and IC Plot Progressions (aka signposts) have already been determined.  Two options remain for each of the other two plot progressions.  4 Issue choices, 2 Unique Ability/Catalyst Choices, 2 Critical Flaw/Inhibitor Choices, and 16 possibilities for each of Problem, Solution, Symptom, and Response remain for each throughline.  If we wanted to the number 16 is small enough that we could theoretically make all 16 storyforms and compare the reports for them to see which we like best.  That would be a lot of work though, lol.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2419141}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319566483.813858, "message": "Okay, here's a third opinion on some of this stuff.\nLimit: Optionlock. Not only is there no time limit in play, the protagonist (the woman) has only so many things to try before this plan is played out.\nDriver: She decides she wants a child (start), he decides having a child is okay (end). She decides to put on make-up and a disguise in the middle, etc.\n\nBeyond that, I don't think much has been sorted out. \nWhy hasn't the woman met her soulmate? Is it because she's run away from him in the past -- implying an internal issue? Is it because of a shortage of good men -- implying an external issue? \nIf anything, the only real problem that's been put out there is that she wants a child, and that is an obstacle to the man. Is that because he's afraid he's going to be a bad father, like his own father was -- implying an internal issue? Or is it because children lead to financial ruin and divorce -- implying an external issue?\n\nYou seem to be concentrating on the setting of the story (finding a mate in a magical town) but not on the things that cause hiccoughs. You need both, and specifically you need to find the source of the problems.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2430937}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319573914.1672411, "message": "@MikeDerk - Did you agree with the part about the woman being a steadfast intuitive doe-er, or you think there's not enough information in the synopsis to be sure?\n\nThe reason the woman hasn't met her soulmate is external, she was never in the same town as him before, or there were a lack of interested candidates for the position in her home town.  So that's pretty clearly external.  I think that's why there has to be a bit of emphasis on the setting, because the fact that after a long time making no progress staying at home and hoping to meet a man in her everyday life she has finally decided to get off her butt and travel to \"romance town\", which had to happen before she could really attack the problem.  Maybe it's a prerequisite of something.\n\nThe man doesn't like children because they are annoying, which could probably be restated as disruptive, so that could be something like he wants a controlled environment and children are inherently uncontrolled.  Or I guess it could be something like children complicate an otherwise pleasantly simple life, so avoiding children is logical when he lacks a feeling to contradict it.  Either way, he specifically doesn't want children in his immediate vicinity or living with him.  And this was something he decided a long time ago and never bothers to question, so I could also see an argument for consider/reconsider there.  So, I dunno, not wanting children near him seems external but if the real problem is that he leads an unexamined life, that's internal.  Could be part of it is OS throughline and part IC throughline??", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2432160}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319583269.3542161, "message": "No she goes to the town to get pregnant", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433208}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319577422.056567, "message": "@sunandshadow You're jumping all over the place with your approach, specifically considering problem/solution pairs, and I think it's too early to do that, especially if you are trying to use this to create a template that can be used to build stories using Dramatica. I'm going to try to pull the reins really hard, so the approach proceeds slowly.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2432522}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319577463.2843959, "message": "I'm going to skip Do-er, Intuitive, Steadfast for now. You can declare them to be true -- that's the author's right. But I think we should skip them until other parts of the story are sorted out.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2432530}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319578778.408298, "message": "To be clear, what I've said doesn't make the town an OS thing, and her issue internal.\n\nShe could have a huge nose (Cyrano de Bergerac) and that causes her problems.\n\nThe town could be on top of a methane pit (not romantic, but people get woozy, feel spellbound and fall in love) -- that's external. OR, the mayor of the town could be so adamant that people fall in love that he sabotages people's vehicles until they fall in love -- making it a Fixed Attitude.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2432682}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319578639.33673, "message": "First Thing: Soulmate as external problem.\n\nYou are building this on assumptions. First, that everyone has a soulmate. Second, that enough of these soulmates are men from this particular town -- especially for women coming from out of town -- that the town has a ritual and a reputation. Third, that this particular woman satisfies #1 and #2.\n\nI just want to point out that you have the woman find the stone and then NOT want to meet the guy, implying that there is something internal going on with her that is keeping her away from Romance. That might make not finding her soulmate an internal problem.\n\nThe thing to make sure is uber clear then is what issues belong to the OS and which belong to her. Here is one way to deal with all of this. (It's not the only way.)\n\nA different approach would be that this town has a reputation for Romance. Men and Women come to the town, and partake in the ritual (men sing to the stones and cast them in the garden in the morning. Women walk through at noon and see if any of the stones speak to them...). This deals with #1 and #2 in a different way: that we don't all have unique soulmates -- we just have to be open to romance, and there is a constant flow of men and women from all over to repopulate the mating pool. \n\nThen, give the woman a problem that keeps her from \"pulling the trigger.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2432675}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319578846.1058769, "message": "So... you're in charge. What do you want to do from here?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2432687}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319582478.885704, "message": "Okay, let me comment on these assumptions about the woman and the town.  1st, it is a fantasy world where it is a truth of the world that everyone has at least one soulmate.  It might be possible that around the world any given person might have 30 people of the right gender, appearance, and personality to qualify as a soulmate.  Once they spend some time with one they bond with that one and their own soul stops looking around for others.  In general this isn't relevant to the story since it's only about this one woman and the first man she's ever recognized as someone who resonates with her soul.  2nd, both men and women of this town make soulstones.  Again, this is not relevant because the stones made by women are on the other side of the garden, the MC never goes there, and the IC has been there but never found a woman's stone that resonated with him.  The difference between this town and the MC's hometown is that this town thinks soulmates are the best thing ever and they have devoted a lot of time and attention to developing soulmate-seeking magic and traditions.  The MC's hometown is skeptical that soulmates exist or are important so they have focused their own development of magic on more tangible things, such as crafting physical objects and earning money in business.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433103}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319582854.431056, "message": "When the woman finds the stone she does immediately want to look at the guy; what she wants is a one-sided meeting, her meeting him but him not meeting her.  Thus the disguise preventing him from recognizing her as a soulmate because appearance is about 30% of what makes people potential soulmates.  What she is afraid of is committing herself to a bad future because this guy is a total unknown (he might have a violent temper or something), she doesn't have the faith that soulmates are the best thing since sliced bread that everyone in this town including the IC does, her first priority is protecting herself and her future child.  Thus the questionnaire, because she wants to know everything about this guy before she commits to meeting him as a potential soulmate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433140}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319583236.040477, "message": "About the idea of jumping around with approach, I actually think one of the best things about Dramatica is there are half a dozen different places to start and you can do them in whichever order seems easiest.  So I was imagining the walkthrough would try to tackle each of these potential starting points without relying on what had been decided already, if possible.  Instead of \"Do step one, build on step one to do step two, build on step two to do step three...\" I would like to create a document that says, \"Here are steps 1-6, look at them all and choose the one that seems easiest to do first.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433200}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319583518.37551, "message": "Sorry, my thing posted before I wanted it to, and I had only seen one of your three posts. Weird.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433255}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319583959.1411331, "message": "\"it is a fantasy world where it is a truth of the world that everyone has at least one soulmate.\"\nI thought you were saying that everyone has *one* soulmate, which is very different.\n\nAlso, now you're saying that her town has \"focused their own development of magic on more tangible things\" yet this woman does not believe in magic (from the early messages).\n\nSo, which is it? Because the main thing that I am trying to point out is that the story does not seem very clear. The edges are not defined.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433327}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319584249.7657571, "message": "She must believe in soulmates enough to go to the town. I understand being skeptical. But when the town's rocks point one out to her, her assumption is that a future with him might be bad!\n\nThis is not belief in a soulmate!\n\nBut that is okay. It just means that her problem, or the OS problem, lies in that gap.\n\nDoes she think there is a different kind of hoodoo going on? Does she get uncomfortable with this kind of soulmate seeking? What is that gap? \n\nThat is the inequity you have to sort out.\n\nOr...\n\nShe has to believe in soulmates and immediately go to the guy... only to find out that there was no lightning bolt of love when they met. That is a different inequity that has to be solved.\n\nThe story is in there.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433378}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319584023.4776809, "message": "She wants a baby, but she'd rather have a soulmate. Which is great because if she meets her soulmate, then he can sire the baby. But she goes to the town to get pregnant, even though she is going to the town to give it one last chance to find her soulmate.\n\nWhat?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433340}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319586398.4759159, "message": "This introduces nice problems, too. Because she could have her eye on one guy -- but the town pushes someone else on her.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433634}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319584448.422462, "message": "Also, in terms of creating a walk-through, verses jumping around... I think that's fine. But I think it needs to be contained somewhat. Jumping straight to the problem can be okay if you really have a sense of what you want to do. But saying \"it could be this, it could be that\" to me sends  up strong signals not to go there.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433404}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319584366.047797, "message": "I think you need to figure out if she wants a baby, wants a soulmate, or thinks she wants a baby, but it's really a justification not to find a soulmate, or wants a soulmate, but uses the baby as a way to not commit... Saying she wants a baby, but she's going to give finding a soulmate one last go, and then opting to just try to get pregnant... I can see it. But then she has a problem of being indecisive and manipulative and self-serving.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433392}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319585903.936928, "message": "I don't know how to say it another way. I think you are trying to have your cake and eat it, too.\n\nI just don't understand how going to interview the guy while in make-up is the rational action considering that all she wants is a baby.\n\nI get the dilemma you're setting up, and have no issue with it. It's the way you're getting there that I have issue with.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433574}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319584669.1811681, "message": "And, are the twelve questions not a walk-through?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433427}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319584977.210537, "message": "I know it's a fuzzy concept, and I just want to make sure that the approach to cleaning it up acknowledges that. Once you make a decision, other things can no longer be chosen.\n\nAnd, I think it all starts at the top. If she wants a baby, why does she even go into the garden to find a soulmate... unless it's to con him into sleeping with her so she can get pregnant and vamoose? Why is she even concerned about a future with the guy or about love? She should be using it to manipulate the guy into the bedroom.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433465}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319585032.723254, "message": "She can only be there to try to solve one problem. \nIf a second one arises as an unexpected consequence to solving the first one, that's fine. But her active pursuit of it is a story-telling no-no as far as I'm concerned.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433473}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319584712.161603, "message": "Well, this isn't an existing story we are analyzing, this is a vague concept we are developing toward a fleshed-out story.  So, I think it's natural that there are fuzzy edges.  I apologize for being inconsistent about the woman belief in magic though.  But I do think that her want to have a baby is a totally different kind of goal than wanting to have a soulmate, or as she thinks of it since she's not totally invested in the concept of soulmates, a lover.  The desire to get pregnant is an immediate, strong, specific desire that spurs her to the specific action of going to the other town.  The other town has a reputation as a great place for a sexy vacation - her main plan is to do exactly that, take a vacation, find a guy good enough to have sex with, and go home with the baby she wanted.  The desire to have love on the other hand is something that's been part of the background of her life for years.  It's something she feels wistful about, not a problem she actively wants to attack.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433434}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319585620.2107999, "message": "What she is looking for is a guy to be a babydaddy.  But she thinks a guy who wanted to be her lover and father to her children would be a superior babydaddy than some random guy she's never going to see again.  To create the biggest possible conflict for her, she finds a guy who she almost immediately starts to fall for, he would very likely fall in love with her, BUT he doesn't want kids.  I wanted it to be a situation where she wants to eat her cake (get pregnant) but is then presented with the contradictory possibility of having her cake (acquiring a lover) and what she really wants to do is have both so she carefully and slowly tries to finagle the situation to get as close to having both as she can.  But overall she starts with wanting the baby and when she ultimately must choose she chooses conceiving the baby and taking it home with her instead of having a lover who doesn't want children.  That's why I say she's steadfast.  It's only the IC being willing to compromise at the end that allows the MC to have both a baby and a lover.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433548}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319586075.183773, "message": "Maybe it would clarify things if I said the 'obsession' with soulmates originates with the town and it's people as represented by the IC.  The MC starts out thinking \"I want a baby\" and the town/IC tries to make her change to wanting a soul mate instead, and she considers it, angsts about it, but ultimately says no, soulmates are nice but a baby is what's really important.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433588}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319589254.5481219, "message": "As we were saying above, I think a valid argument could be made for the town/IC being focused on soulmates (i.e. being romantic) as either Manipulation or Fixed Attitude.  I went with Fixed Attitude because when I tried the other the signposts seemed all wrong.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2434006}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319586259.667074, "message": "Sure. But I want you to see that you are materially changing something. You are making the second problem (a soulmate) a consequence of trying to solve the first problem.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433615}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319586446.738203, "message": "Since this whole thing is an exercise in trying to make a walkthrough, I want to point out that at no point have you or I talked about Domains. It's way too early at this point.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433639}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319586888.1534791, "message": "A woman goes to a romantic town to get pregnant.--->\nGoal (either MC or OS): get pregnant.\nTown is Romantic: that seems like Psychology/Manipulation.\nSo:\nOS Manipulation\nMC Physics/Obtaining\n\nWe can decide she falls in love, and doesn't get pregnant: (Failure/Good)\nOOPS! __ that's SUCCESS/Good! It's the Town's Goal to make her fall in love. Her goal (pregnancy) is a failure.\n\nEtc.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433695}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319586706.0696421, "message": "Or... and I'm taking this from Armando's book... you have to start with way fewer ideas.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433670}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319588720.328862, "message": "\"But I want you to see that you are materially changing something. You are making the second problem (a soulmate) a consequence of trying to solve the first problem.\" I don't think this is strictly true.  I think what I am mentally referencing is that part in the reports where it talks about an argument being apples and oranges because the two sides aren't really talking about the same thing.  That's, what, the main vs. impact story character report?  So in this story it's like the MC is having a conversation with the town/ic.  First the MC says, I'm here to look for a babydaddy.  And the town say, Ooh ooh look here I have this garden where there are a bunch of men wanting to be a soulmate.  And the MC thinks, ok that's not the same thing, but still it's a convenient array of men, and there's no reason a soulmate and a babydaddy couldn't be the same person.  So she looks at the garden and is dubious because a rock doesn't tell her anything about the man who made it, such as whether he would sire pretty babies.  And the IC's stone says Ooh ooh come meet me and be my soulmate.  So the MC is like, well since you asked I'll come meet you but I don't want to put myself out there as a soulmate, that's not what I signed up for, so I'll use a disguise to cancel out my potential soulmate-ness.  That way we can meet more neutrally and appropriately to considering you for a babydaddy.  When she actually meets the IC it's the same apples and oranges conversation again - the IC is saying soulmates are wonderful, I am looking for mine, do you know her? and the MC is asking, well you are attractive enough for sex, do you want to be a babydaddy?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433934}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319588968.7440629, "message": "I'm all for not labeling things prematurely, but the reports have some really nice intuitive/organic patterns that one can try to match one's story ideas too.\n\nAlso as far as the 12 questions go, they don't count as a walkthrough to me because they don't really talk about \"How do I know my choice for each question is right?\" or \"What do I do if my first attempt at answering these questions doesn't result in something the program will actually allow me to choose, or results in reports which seem all wrong?\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2433961}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319589833.2266779, "message": "But ok, let me see if I can get organized and get on board with your idea to start simple following Armando's example.  We were talking about a logline earlier (something along the lines of \"A creative goal-oriented woman who wants to have a baby is distracted by the possibility of having a lover instead.\")  but Armando's starting from a thematic statement in the format taught by Lajos Egri.  \"X behavior leads to Y consequence.\"  For this story, one possible way of stating that might be \"Remaining true to oneself despite distractions and dilemmas leads to happiness.\"  Was that where you wanted to start, or somewhere else?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2434069}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319678184.7970641, "message": "I say, \"what if this is future? Then what?... okay, what if it's Manipulation?\" Etc.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443010}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319600387.126796, "message": "Found one other thing I wanted to comment on.  \"She must believe in soulmates enough to go to the town. I understand being skeptical. But when the town's rocks point one out to her, her assumption is that a future with him might be bad!  This is not belief in a soulmate!\"  Actually, that is not disbelief in soulmates, it is a different understanding of what a soulmate is.  The IC and people of romance town assume soulmates are 100% good.  They haven't analyzed soulmates or come to this conclusion logically, it's a belief made out of mostly enthusiasm and romanticism, similar to hero-worship.  The MC takes a much more analytical and skeptical approach - she thinks okay, soul mates are two people who have a life time relationship.  There's no guarantee that the details of that relationship are going to be particularly satisfying to both people.  It might be possible to be trapped in an unhappy relationship with a soulmate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2435554}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319604248.0294011, "message": "Okay, I see how we've been missing each other. And I get that I may seem too strict in my interpretations. I'm probably going to seem even stricter. Starting... now!\n\nBut seriously, I don't care if we start with a full synopsis or with a logline. There are advantages to each.\n\nTo start with fewer words means that you can make decisions more easily, but it could also mean that you are wrong. For instance, one could say that a Romantic Town is an activity: dinners, walks on the beach, etc. I just happened to say that it was manipulation because that's how it feels to me, and how magic feels to me. Then, again, it could be a situation, because if the town casts a spell on you and you are stuck until love happens... etc.\n\nStarting with more means you are more likely to be correct, but it can take longer to determine which things are supposed to take the lead when it comes to making a decision.\n\nThat's why I asked about the twelve questions -- because they are a time-tested way to get through all the mess.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2435994}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319604551.9652879, "message": "How do you know if the questions are right? Let's look at why they wouldn't be right:\n\n1. Mixing throughlines. Talking about the MC, but actually referring to Protagonist. I think this is the one that trips me up the most.\n2. Not being clear what trait changes or stays steadfast.\n3. Assuming all goals are \"Obtaining\", etc....\n\nOkay, yeah, there are lots of ways to go wrong. BUT, take time to answer the questions and then they'll be right. Sometimes this takes forever. Sometimes it ends up being 25 different storyforms.\n\nBut at the end, what you declare to be right is right.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2436010}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319605743.5019951, "message": "As part of the main character's goal of protecting her child and ensuring it a good future, the only thing that makes choosing a random guy to sire her child ok is that she plans for him to never be involved with the child.  That would be quite difficult to do with someone from her own town.  We could also add that maybe she feels bitter toward the men of her own town just because none of them has shown much interest in her.  The idea of her stay in romance town as a fun/luxurious vacation which is a departure from her usual routine also parallels the idea that choosing to have a child without a husband is her breaking her routine of having an empty life to do something for herself which, like a vacation, is a \"needed luxury\".  Did that make sense, lol?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2436094}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319604838.5698049, "message": "Getting back to the story at hand.\n\nIf you want to go with the MC going to the town and the town providing a garden full of men, great. But I still think these need to be woven together somehow. \n\nI still think that she needs to go to the town knowing that the garden of men is there waiting for her. Otherwise, why is she going there? Isn't this why she chose the town?\n\nHer goal and the town are linked. Putting them together is what moves this movie forward. Otherwise, she'd just go down to the bar to find a willing guy or go to the college to find a suitable stud.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2436030}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319605966.9328811, "message": "25 storyforms... I get overwhelmed if I have to try more than three or four.  Particularly since there's no way to compare them without rather laboriously exporting or printing data from them one at a time.  I've done it, but it's definitely confusing, tiring, and frustrating.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2436117}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319606956.9829099, "message": "As far as a starting point, here's what I'm most sure about:  Firstly, we all seem to agree that this is a Decision-Driven Option Lock story, and I think the reasons for these choices have been explained sufficiently above.  Secondly, I think the woman is the MC, and she is a Steadfast Do-er, while the man is the IC (possibly this role is shared but he's the main IC) and he is a Change Be-er.  Why?  Well the woman is obviously the MC because the story follows her around, sympathizes with her, and she gets the lion's share of the screen time.  She's steadfast because she starts out with the goal of having a child, and despite temptations to change goals she doesn't; she has a moment of clarity and resolve about why having the child is the most important thing and worth giving up a romance for.  The man changes when it becomes clear that his passive be-er approach to getting his soulmate and confident assumptions about what it means to have a soulmate aren't working, because his soulmate has left him, something he didn't even think was possible.  He instead emulates the woman's active approach from earlier in the story, investigating her location and traveling there.\n\nDoes this seem solid?  Any questions we should be asking ourselves to test whether these points are correct?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2436188}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319610326.1547911, "message": "We're starting to pile up multiple threads inside this thread. So, I'm just going to answer your last question. But I'll add that comparing 25 storyforms wasn't that hard because I wasn't comparing them. I was abandoning one, and moving to the next...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2436392}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319610511.9766271, "message": "Here is my last thought of the night. I think we should be careful about pinning the Steadfastness of the MC to the goal, because they aren't always the same.\n\nShe could steadfastly want a child, but her goal could be to get laid.\n\nYou talk about \"protecting the child\" a lot -- and there is no child yet. I wonder if this is her Fixed Attitude and it's steadfast, but the actual goal is to get pregnant.\n\nBut, now we're just batting around story suggestions. How does this get back to being a template to building a story, instead of just being about this story?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2436416}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319610969.3004279, "message": "A walkthrough of developing a story is a fully documented process of developing a specific story.  The choices made are recorded, the reasons for making each choice are explained, the results of making each choice are described and related theory commented on.  Like a journal.  So basically it's supposed to be about this specific story.  There's already plenty of templates around.  If one had several of these walkthroughs they could be combined to get a template more detailed than the ones we've currently got.  But we should carry this one out fully before we start making more, right?\n\nI'll think about that point \"What is steadfastness the steadfastness of?\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2436475}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319613681.293839, "message": "Okay, I looked at the introduction to the idea of change vs. steadfast in the Theory book, and I looked at the 12 questions entry for it, and I looked at the dictionary entries for the two Resolves.  But my favorite wording of the topic is the one in the reports: \"One character was giving the other good or bad advice all along - did the other eventually listen?\"  I think it's safe to say that the woman in this story does not end up following any advice (or example, which is advice by doing instead of speaking) given by the man and/or the town.  Thus, she's steadfast.  The man does end up following the woman's example.  Thus he's change.  Satisfactory?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2436634}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319615743.573319, "message": "Maybe that's the direction we should go with this walkthrough - for each question quote or cite all the Dramatica material which would help answer the question.  For example, I've suggested above that I think the main character is intuitive.  But I should additionally show how the dictionary entry for intuitive matches the specific examples I've cited in the story.  \"A choice of intuitive creates a Main Character whose psychology is based on assessing balance. An intuitive Main Character resolves inequities by comparing surpluses to deficiencies\"  The MC in this story considers balance when she weighs a child against a lover and possible futures against each other.  She compares balances and deficiencies in the part where she does an anonymous favor for the IC because she feels guilty for rejecting him, then swings the opposite direction in deciding that because she has made him happy it won't be too bad if she deceives him a little to make herself happy too.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2436706}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319672414.2316599, "message": "iPhone mistakes", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442296}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319648596.5899849, "message": "Nothing is satisfactory unless there are specifics. So she's steadfast... what advice didn't she listen to?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2439410}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319656626.8993831, "message": "Having a baby is for her an act of self-nurturance, a bit of an indulgence.  A vacation activity calls for a vacation setting.  She doesn't want to stay in her own town because a different town gives her new choices in men and more options for keeping the baby's parentage and conception a secret if necessary.  I'm fairly sure those two reasons correspond to two different throughlines.  She may also think that if the town has a reputation for guiding soulmates to help each other, finding an acceptable man for a one-night-stand is much less difficult so it should be a very easy thing to do there.  She is aware of the possibility that she might find her own soulmate but does not take this possibility seriously, she thinks it's very unlikely.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2440207}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319655772.778286, "message": "Let's start at the beginning: She wants a baby. Why does she go to this town?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2440112}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319656122.02527, "message": "Well, the IC has various opinions different from the MC's.  He thinks soulmates are the best thing ever, and two soulmates should unquestionably be together, as described above.  He also thinks women are generally lovely and nice, and would not normally suspect a new woman he met of having bad personality traits.  He thinks \"love is all we need\" and children are an unnecessary complication, they would add mess to his clean perfect romantic ideal.  He exemplifies living a calm, content be-er lifestyle in romance town, and it's clear he would want the MC to settle down into that life next to him (I'm remembering that illustration of the meditating be-er in the dramatica comic book.)  He has no secrets and exemplifies that kind of straightforwardness and confidence that nothing bad will happen and there's no reason he should try to manipulate anyone or anything because everything will turn out fine on its own.  His thinking too is simple and if he knew all the MC's thoughts he would regard them as overly complicated and overly paranoid.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2440148}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319656246.1299911, "message": "We'll return to that in a  sec. Did you see my other question?\n\nShe wants a baby. Why does she go to this town?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2440163}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319657059.086179, "message": "Mare, I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but that answer is just... too much. I think this is why this walkthrough is so convoluted. \n\nShe wants a baby. You say, \"A vacation activity calls for a vacation setting.\" \n\nA baby is no vacation. You are actually talking about... finding a man, getting laid, something else.\n\nYou fuss about parts of the answer being parts of different throughlines. You talk about her dismissal of her finding her soulmate. \n\nI think the story will develop a lot more easily and cleanly if you just stick to the questions.  Because the other day you said, \"how can I know if my answer is right or wrong,\" and all I can say is... with that kind of answer, you can't. Because what is your actual answer, and what is peripheral?\n\nEven the sentence I think is the right answer is long winded: \" She may also think that if the town has a reputation for guiding soulmates to help each other, finding an acceptable man for a one-night-stand is much less difficult so it should be a very easy thing to do there.\"\n\nSo, can you answer again? \n\nShe wants a baby. Why does she go to this town?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2440258}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319659084.8429201, "message": "So, let's back up a bit. And I'm sure this is annoying, but I think that stories thrive on precision.\n\nShe wants a baby. But your story doesn't end with a baby -- it can't. It doesn't cover nine months. So, what she wants is to get pregnant?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2440504}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319658334.776242, "message": "She definitely does think of acquiring a baby as being a self-pampering activity.  Not like the restful kind of vacation, like the \"spend thousands of dollars for a whirwind tour of paris, the louvre, and an opera\" kind of vacation.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2440394}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319658718.498981, "message": "Just so we're clear, 'convoluted' is the natural way I think, and the way story ideas exist in my head.  It gets more complicated when I write it down because I've had many, many experience where if I don't say something as thoroughly explained as possible someone will find a way to seriously misinterpret it.  That's really frustrating, so I try to take precautions to avoid it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2440452}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319659001.7643909, "message": "Well, the opposite thing is happening here. It seems like you have no idea what you want, because you dance around answering in a concise manner.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2440490}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319658499.1454411, "message": "But that aside, you want simple?  She goes to the town because its the best place to get a baby.  That's it.  She doesn't care about the sex, if she had a magic wand she could just point at a guy and say a spell to make herself pregnant with his baby, she'd do that.  She's not looking for romance.  She's not looking for a soulmate.  The town's value is its strategic value (safety + convenience +comfort) in acquiring a baby.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2440421}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319678156.3653591, "message": "I read the definitions all the time when I am brainstorming. I just don't link things!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443006}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319661395.235213, "message": "Well, I think that I do have a strong idea of what I want but it isn't concise.  Concise never comes naturally to me, I always have to fight for it and always worry about what I'm losing in the process.  But, I apologize if I sounded snippy at any point, I came in to look at this on a 10-minute break from some very irritating yard work, so I was already on edge.  Now it's raining so I get to rest, lol.\n\nHow about if I ask a question?  Any given person wants a bunch of things at the same time, and chooses their goals to satisfy multiple of those wants.  Obviously Dramatica Pro needs us to pick one things from a list, but we're not looking at Dramatica terms here, at least yet.  So why is it important to pick one of the main character's several reasons, and why specifically her reason for going to the other town?  If I understood what you were driving toward it would help me figure out what kind of answer you are looking for.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2440835}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319662252.4241669, "message": "Okay, fine. We'll leave the conversation about the baby there for now. (What's clear is that she gets what she sets out to get from the weekend.) \n\nLet's go now to why she ends up in this town. \n\nHer plan involves getting laid. She won't do that in her home town for various reasons. We can take that for granted.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2440968}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319661593.991694, "message": "What the story ends with is the pregnant main character living in her town and the man also there, telling her he loves her and wants to live with her and he'll love her children because they make her happy, basically he proposes and she accepts and they live happily ever after.  The baby isn't born on screen in the same way \"happily ever after\" can't really happen on screen, but both have already been portrayed enough in the main character's earlier thoughts about the future.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2440872}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319662284.356138, "message": "Why does she go to this town to effect her plan?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2440970}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319663396.2332201, "message": "The first town as an environment makes it impossible for her to satisfactorily go out and get pregnant there.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2441110}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319663325.8838279, "message": "She could find a guy to have sex with in her home town but it wouldn't be satisfactory.  The second town is different.  I'm having trouble putting into words how the second town is different, but it is an environment where it seems likely and not too difficult for the MC to find a guy with a satisfactory appearance and personality and genes to contribute to a baby, and more importantly have an encounter with him that is also satisfactory in ways that have something to do with control, strategy, protection...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2441101}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319663719.6584611, "message": "Okay, so, this town provides a way to have an encounter that allows her to have control and carry out her strategy. (You say \"protection\", but I still don't know what needs protecting at this point. Let's drop it, and bring it back when it isn't abstract.)\n\nWhat is her strategy?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2441155}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319666323.85041, "message": "Her strategy, hmm.  Well, she goes to the other town and checks into a hotel.  She is using the anonymity of being one tourist among many.  She doesn't tell anyone she is there to get pregnant.  She is looking for a strategic opportunity to present itself to her; she's trying to be relaxed, evaluating all options that appear and ready to pounce on one.  Very much like the joy of shopping, really.  A lot of the town's tourist industry involves visitor's interest in the local soulmate magic and customs, and the soulstone garden is immediately suggested to all tourists as a place to visit.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2441474}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319665749.09271, "message": "While I was doing some washing I thought of a (maybe) clearer way to explain the two towns.  Town A has an inclination to be nosy, critical, and interfering.  This is incompatible with the MC's strong desire to control information related to her pregnancy and child, and controlling the information is key to controlling the whole situation of her life as a pregnant single woman and her child's future life.  If she went out in town A and got pregnant someone would immediately know who the father was or think they knew after guessing wrong, and once they knew they'd have an opinion and try to interfere and turn her pregnancy and possibly her child's future life into a bad situation/experience.  That's what she iss controlling things to protect against.  (Town A is like the MC, they are both suspicious and manipulative, while Town B is like the IC, they are both idealistic/romantic and relaxed in their confidence.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2441397}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319669433.1673219, "message": "I'm going to continue to pin you down. \n\nIf she wants to control all the things you list above (rumor and interference), why doesn't she just go to Paris or Ibiza?\n\nShe could still check into a hotel, be an anonymous tourist, be strategic and partake in local tourist traps until an opportunity arises.\n\nYou're not selling me very well that this town is where she *must* go to carry out her plan.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2441824}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319671776.311029, "message": "I don't understand why the town needs to be the only choice.  Isn't it enough that it's the best choice?  The romance-focused town is a little bigger than hers, a convenient train-ride away, and has a reputation for having a friendly easygoing party town that takes good care of tourists.  It's a fantasy world so there isn't a real Paris.  There wouldn't be any point making a longer and more arduous journey someplace that wouldn't be any better and might easily have a worse attitude.  The next most obvious choice could have been the capital city of the country, but it is bureaucratic and focused on political and mercantile wheeling and dealing.  More danger of being mugged or something there too.  She could have gone to some little hot spring resort in the mountains, but there would have been a much smaller selection of men and not enough people to hide herself among.  The romance-oriented town is the best choice because it's big and anonymous but friendly and safe, far enough to block transmission of information but not so far as to be difficult to get to or leave in a hurry.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442192}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319675248.0255041, "message": "What if Romance town was Paris?  What if the whole Soul-Mate Stone were a separate faction or cult in town.  Or a yearly festival like in Matchmaker starring Ganine Garafillo?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442633}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319675355.1731069, "message": "Sorry, Mare, *best* is okay ... to me that makes it the \"winner\". I can see why I didn't make that at all clear. \n\nAnyway, a character must make the best choice -- that's why they're equivalent here. She could even say that Paris is actually the best choice, but she can't afford to go... which nixes it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442642}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319675511.554445, "message": "What if MC woman has a strong desire to have a family which could manifest itself as a concern of future with or without a family or desire or obtain...?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442664}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319675144.386085, "message": "There are as many processes as there are writers, so we are talking about effective vs. in-effective and not right vs wrong here, aren't we? Just to be clear.  Why is it not ok to be a little fuzzy, get a story form with which you are happy, and then get specific with story points to work this stuff out?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442629}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319675585.9588399, "message": "janeane garofalo", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442674}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319675615.2720809, "message": "I'm ignoring my kids... back in a bit.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442677}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319675448.3054199, "message": "I'm just trying to get you to justify why it's this town. You haven't really even explained why it's not just another town a train ride away.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442654}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319675982.784718, "message": "@sunandshadow If MC's goal were to have a family (in whatever form that may be) satisfy the goal issue Mike has?  And her decision to have a baby is an option which she feels is logical (in her intuitive way) since she is all but giving up on the whole soulmate thing.  I like her as the contagonist or ani-hero (like you said ) in the overall story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442706}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319675632.6451049, "message": "Kids are important :0)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442679}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319675417.5748241, "message": "The clich\u00e9 in a horror movie is \"don't go into the basement!\"\n\nA writer cannot have a character go down just because it's necessary to get to the dark spooky place. It must be justified.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442649}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319676635.6560819, "message": "@sam_potter Well, I can't speculate on what will satisfy Mike, lol, but I don't think family is quite the right idea - the idea of family would usually include the idea of a lover, but the woman here definitely does not want \"either a child or a lover\".  She specifically wants a child, while the possibility of a lover is a temptation and a distraction that she ultimately decides to give up on because she can't combine it with her true goal.  Thanks for the recommendation of the matchmaker move though, I'll look into that.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442791}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319676785.983398, "message": "Oh that would be a nice way to deal with a long forum thread one wanted to get into.  I know some writers who have their computer read their manuscripts to them.  Can sometimes be wince-inducing as it butchers the pronunciation though.  And the idea of an argument where both sides have the same voice is funny. :)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442813}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319676205.1972971, "message": "I think the \"essence\" of \"why romance town?\" is the same as the essence of why the man is the woman's soulmate - the personality they share is what she needs because it's the opposite of hers (the complement to hers).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442738}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319676938.5126801, "message": "I think I've become a lot more firm about it over the course of this discussion.  Once I realized that it's a really key plot point that she chooses to take the baby and abandon the soulmate that made me think it's important to contrast the two clearly against each other from the beginning.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442825}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319677262.8779449, "message": "Haha, yeah, I can picture that cliche.  Or the one where the MC is all super-practical and business-like and thinks romance is a pie-in-the-sky dream, but her starry eyed romantic sister persuades her to give love One Last Chance by trying magic. :P lol", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442875}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319678107.2003219, "message": "I like the idea of not tying things to dramatica terms, except for one thing - looking at dramatica terms is often where I realize or create themes when I'm developing a story concept.  Just looking at the words Dramatica uses makes me consider underlying meanings or alternate perspectives that don't come really naturally to me but add a lot of depth to the story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442994}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319676523.6455331, "message": "With my day job I drive a lot and with the new iphone upgrade I was able to let it read outloud to my the whole discussion between Mike and Sunandshadow.  The only problem was you both had the same voice.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442772}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319676831.7492039, "message": "That's my point I guess.  That she is not opposed to it but has given up on it and so another option is just to have a baby on her own.  But I can see you are very firm on the baby goal.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442815}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319678137.7945011, "message": "@sunandshadow \"For the purposes of the walkthrough, it would be great if you would identify any clear answer you see emerge. :)\" \n\nYou calling me out? haha, sure, I'll do that.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443005}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319677005.497431, "message": "I can see the cliche beginning. It is MC's birthday and she explains to her friend at work how she promised herself if she wasn't married by 39 she would have a baby on her own and how she has planned this great vacation for herself (which would have been her honeymoon) and she is bound and determined to come back pregnant.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442834}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319677606.7124779, "message": "For instance, if the goal of a movie is to scale Everest, you will know at the end if they succeeded or failed. (Yes, there are exceptions, like \"Limbo\", where it's not laid out... but that's risky.) So, I don't think expecting a writer to know the answer to that question is draconian.\n\nSome writer's prefer not to know the answer as they write, but that seems antithetical to trying to use Dramatica to develop a story. Dramatica kinda demands it.\n\nOther things can be fuzzy. But as I've pressed Mare, a very clear answer has emerged. \n\nI suppose that other things can be left out entirely -- who ever really focuses on the Benchmark? And once a story point has been identified -- the Problem, say -- with one strong example, more examples can emerge in the writing.\n\nBut, deciding this is a fantasy world that has no Paris... I don't think those things should be left until the writing phase.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442920}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319677222.4914989, "message": "@sam_potter I think certain things can be fuzzy, and others cannot be fuzzy. Perhaps this is my style and it's not applicable across the board, but I think it probably is.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442869}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319677781.560055, "message": "@MikeDerk  Well said,  I agree.  Your questions have forced specifics.  @sunandshadow What do you of the idea that she comes to Romance Town because it has a Vegas reputation and she has no clue about the soul-mate ritual. She comes across it by fate or destiny or accident and goes through the soul-mate stone garden on a lark.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442944}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319677813.745754, "message": "@MikeDerk   What do you think of the story embroidery exercises?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442952}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319677920.836555, "message": "@sunandshadow Great example of a clich\u00e9. We would really have to be convinced that this woman has been convinced to give True Love a real shot.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442971}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319677885.7906561, "message": "@MikeDerk For the purposes of the walkthrough, it would be great if you would identify any clear answer you see emerge. :)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442963}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319677809.4752381, "message": "@sam_potter \"What if MC woman has a strong desire to have a family which could manifest itself as a concern of future with or without a family or desire or obtain...?\"\n\nOne of the things that I'm trying to encourage here is not tying ideas to dramatica terms. \n\nThe woman could have a strong desire to have a family, but at this point I don't see it being helpful to tie that to a concern of future, or Desire vs. Ability, or Obtaining... \n\nI think the benefits of doing that now are less advantageous than letting it remain open.\n\nFor instance, the woman's desire to have a baby -- when the movie ends as she's pregnant, that could be painted as \"progress\" (she likes the way things are going) or \"past\" (her old dream has been fulfilled)...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442950}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319677853.4597659, "message": "So... that right there is an example of something that is and probably should be fuzzy! \n\nShe has a long term desire for a baby. How that plays out *in this story* has yet to be decided... but it's a great placeholder.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442958}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319677983.4734449, "message": "@sam_potter I think the story embroidery exercises are great for helping people understand the terms. I'd love them to be three day exercises that end in a plot... seems unlikely...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2442983}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319678372.6505091, "message": "Yeah that's kinda what I do.  Currently I'm rather baffled by the set of 16 elements that go with this kind of Big 4 Type #1 story.  Not the definitions, but how the dynamic pairs are combined and of the 28 theoretically possible combinations only 16 are used, each assigned to a specific variation.  Some of the combinations and assignments I just don't get.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443025}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319678503.4937229, "message": "Thanks. :)  So, where are we currently in this walkthrough?  I don't want to start off on a different tangent if there's more you want to do in the current direction.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443046}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319678400.184804, "message": "Yeah, that's a good question over there on DQ....", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443028}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319678736.035804, "message": "no problem, they are a higher priority", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443079}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319680154.6945961, "message": "I'm being silly. She's the Protagonist and MC and Success -- yes, Mare?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443221}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319678718.1356449, "message": "I need to go deal with kids again...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443076}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319678796.3578179, "message": "So we have a clear goal for the MC.  Right?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443083}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319680018.9025259, "message": "By my count, we have: \nDecision \nOptionlock \nMC or Protagonist wants a baby. (This is a success, but i'm not sure it's a Success story just yet. Depends on her role. I'm guessing \"yes\" but don't want to pin it down. Unless Mare does. It's her story.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443200}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319679836.271739, "message": "Bleh, I tried to group the themes in the story into four groups we could try to match up with the throughlines, but I only came up with three groups. :(  I wonder whether I have missed one entirely or not split them along the right lines.  Here's what I got.  (The following contains Dramatica terms but try to ignore that because I'm using them in their everyday meanings.)  Group A. Something about controlling, protecting, caution, suspicion, planning, and evaluating/analyzing.  Group B. Something about nurturing the self, being true to the self and one's feelings, treating others ethically, making decisions, and being proactive.  Group C. Something about commitment, belief without logical basis, confidence, preconception, being relaxed and simple.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443171}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319680259.1436529, "message": "She is both protagonist and MC, although I think the baby part is her protagonist role (part of the OS?) rather than her inner story (MC?)  Which would make it Success, if I haven't got that tangled up somehow, lol.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443231}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319682015.856786, "message": "As for your groups... that seems like the kind of thing you could use to help you fill out story points, but I'm not sure what I could do with it just yet since you have so much more knowledge of the story in your head at this point.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443428}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319681922.711875, "message": "The Protagonist is always part of the OS. \nHer \"inner story\" might be Situation or Activity -- so it's her story, but I'm not sure that it's inner just yet.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443420}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319682674.249794, "message": "Well, I think Group C goes with the IC, so it might give a clue as to the IC throughline.  Or if you wanted more raw material to ask questions about, the groups might be usable for that.  Idk.  If you have another question to ask to get me to work on clarifying another main point that would be good, doesn't have to be related to the groups.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443536}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319683850.4652951, "message": "I am hearing 'prerequisites of having a man to sire the baby.' and preconditions of ... well some believe it has to be your soul-mate.. idk. I probably just when out of bounds", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443686}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319683661.6974461, "message": "I'm thinking the OS is about obtaining, but not everyone has to want to obtain the same thing.  The MC wants to obtain a baby, the IC wants to obtain his soulmate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443661}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319683414.721581, "message": "Now I am not clear.  What is the Overall story about? Getting Pregant? or Having a baby? If everyone in the story has an opinion about that I guess it would work something like, \"Everyone seems to be concerned with MC having a baby.  Who the father is, whether it is moral or not to have a baby with someone not your soul-mate, if one wants a baby one must have it with a soul-mate(It's just not done otherwise.) or, what happens in Romance town happens in Romance Town. Don't listen to that out dated moral crap\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443636}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319684265.5300691, "message": "@MikeDerk Cannot the Overall Story be about everyone finding a soul-mate and the MC story be about getting pregnant and in the OS the MC is working counter intuitive to the OS goal?  The protagonist in the OS would be Romance Town or the Soul-mate stone gypsy faction.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443747}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319683907.9638131, "message": "@sunandshadow so then what is out of balance in the overall story?  Just the fact that people are not happy?  That something or a part of them is missing?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443701}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319684289.268791, "message": "Yeah they are all lacking something.  And because it's a Big 4 Type #1 Story the something they are lacking and trying to obtain is going to be related to their innermost desires, their future, and their inner natures.  The different throughlines get at the different facets of the problem", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443749}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319684442.935756, "message": "Oh, it wasn't clear, that was a reply to \"That something or a part of them is missing?\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443760}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319684517.7869041, "message": "I don't think the OS is about everyone finding their soulmate.  The MC is definitely the protagonist, and she's not actively looking for a soulmate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443770}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319684976.366586, "message": "@sam_potter I really think you are hurting yourself by jumping the gun and talking about preconditions and prerequisites. Just think about what would happen.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443824}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319685189.293786, "message": "Okay, next question to prompt discussion:\nShe goes to the Romantic Town because it's the friendly and safe choice. This has nothing to do with their Romantic lovestone ritual. At this point, that whole thing is just peripheral noise... \nSo... what is it that gets her involved in the ritual. Why does she do it? To humor the locals? To say she did? Because maybe it will work? What drives her to do it and not just go to the local bar?\nOr does she go to the bar, and it fails, because that just isn't how this town works?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443860}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319685991.6415639, "message": "@MikeDerk I knew it was out of turn(re: Precon.s and Prereq.s) That part of the storyform doesn't usually present itself to me so I wanted to try it on and see how it felt.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443948}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319686280.5524459, "message": "I don't mind random speculations.  I don't have a problem keeping them mentally separate from the main direction of the thread.  If I were to guess about prerequisites and preconditions, I think traveling to romance town could be one of those.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443968}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319685822.7607639, "message": "The friendliness is kind of related to their focus on romance.  But that aside she is attempting to check the least likely, most daydreamy option off her list first.  She expects to have a pleasant boring half hour stroll through a relaxing garden like any other tourist, not find anything resembling a soulmate, then that evening go to a bar and start seriously cruising.  Time of day is a side factor - it wouldn't work so well to try to go to a bar to pick someone up in the middle of the day.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2443936}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319727018.3503079, "message": "My understanding of Prerequisites is that they happen much later in the story. That they happen in order to make the Requirement possible. \n\nI could totally be wrong.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2446511}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319735912.0105519, "message": "I'm also going to throw it out there that it feels like this is a Good ending.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2447212}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319741802.830617, "message": "As a romance, it is pretty much required by genre rules to have a good ending.  The only thing I find a bit ambiguous about it is that the part after the MC goes home pregnant does not happen due to her actions.  At that point she has made her decision.  If it ended there, with her having a baby but not her soulmate, that would be rather bittersweet.  The only reason the Judgment becomes fully Good is that the IC finally takes action to reunite himself with her.  Since I don't know how choosing a judgment affects other tings in the story engine, I can't make an educated guess as to whether it would ignore things that happen in an 'epilogue' or whether it would consider everything that's actually in the book or movie to be relevant.  But, I do in the end think it is a judgment of good because I want to say that the MC made the right choice for her.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2447824}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319746079.917695, "message": "Aha, a bit of googling the contents of the dramatica.com website turned up several mentions of epilogues being the _best_ place to look for figuring out story Judgment.  So in that case, definitely a Good ending.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2448342}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319749239.967427, "message": "Back to this: \" But that aside she is attempting to check the least likely, most daydreamy option off her list first. She expects to have a pleasant boring half hour stroll through a relaxing garden like any other tourist, not find anything resembling a soulmate, then that evening go to a bar and start seriously cruising. Time of day is a side factor - it wouldn't work so well to try to go to a bar to pick someone up in the middle of the day.\"\n\nHere's what I find really interesting about how you think about story. I agree that the time of day plays a huge role, and that makes sense. But why would doing the \"least likely, most daydreamy option\" ever be something anyone pursues?\n\nThink about it -- we need to end a war. Would the President ever try the least likely thing?\n\nThe Protagonist *wants to accomplish their goal* and all of their actions should be about that and only that. \n\nNow, given that it's the middle of the day, I can see the argument that \"at that moment, it is the only real choice\" or something. But that is mentally just a whole different way of thinking about it than \"least likely.\" \n\nI could even see the argument that it's \"least likely but will have the highest payout\" being workable.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2448801}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319748975.66804, "message": "In addition, I don't think all stories have to wrap up at the same time exactly. Plus, not having her soulmate is a good \"it's darkest before the dawn\" moment.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2448770}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759781.572633, "message": "That's irrelevant.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450095}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319755018.0681059, "message": "I think that's called \"The Secret\".", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449480}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319751939.6769249, "message": "So, anyway, I didn't pose a \"let's move this story forward\" question. Oops.\n\nShe goes to the garden, and a rock sings to her. What happens next? She finds out who the guy is somehow and then approaches him with a disguise and a checklist of some sort, right?\n\nThis brings up two good things. \n\nOne, why doesn't she just meet the guy outright? She has no intention of falling for the guy and doesn't think that this magic is real. So why the disguise?\n\nTwo, he does believe in the magic, so why does he answer any questions? Why doesn't he just say, \"I don't need to answer those. I just need the magic to do its thing.\"?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449107}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319755661.485482, "message": "She's got baggage from her life, from all directions. Okay.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449561}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319754064.287878, "message": "Okay -- this is good. There is huge divide between the world (this magic is perfect) and her beliefs (that soulmates aren't 100% good). \n\nI have a feeling if we delve into this, we are going to find her Problem. So, let's do.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449377}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319754881.141645, "message": "To answer your earlier question the IC isn't answering questions toward getting a soulmate.  He is answering questions because he's by nature an honest helpful person who always answers polite questions asked by nice people.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449461}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319754995.4536819, "message": "So, the world mirrors your expectations?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449478}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319755033.102824, "message": "Either way, that comes back to the MC. Why does she have these expectations?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449484}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319753510.245862, "message": "It's not that she doesn't think the magic is real.  It's that she doesn't have faith that soulmates are 100% good and one would make her happy.  She doesn't want to release control of the information that she is this guy's soulmate to the guy (yet), because that would commit her to some kind of relationship where he would presumably pursue her, which would be a big problem if as soon as she meets him she decides she'd rather avoid him.  The purpose of the disguise is to preserve her anonymity and control, and buy her time to evaluate this guy before committing to any kind of involvement with him.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449308}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319754091.427619, "message": "I can think of various ways this could play out, but it's your story. What is the cause of this divide?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449385}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319754738.9128709, "message": "Hmm, the cause.  I see it as a personality thing?  Like, for naive people life is like a fairy tale, but for pragmatic people with a healthy amount of suspicion they are likely to encounter more dangerous and deceptive people and situations.  Life gives you as much trouble as you can handle, or something?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449439}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319754858.9647679, "message": "Once bitten, twice shy... that kind of thing.\nIs it something that had to do with Romance, or was it something that had to do with trust? Or Magic? Or did she let herself down?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449458}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319754971.7361889, "message": "No, it's not about the MC it's about the world.  Like for idealists the world behaves idealistically and for pragmatists the world behaves pragmatically.  Does that make any sense?  This is something I've seen in fantasy stories before but I've never heard a name for the concept.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449474}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319754985.6533389, "message": "I think making it too easy on your character if you just have this guy open up.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449477}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319755598.1972761, "message": "Expectations I guess but also abilities, which is why I was calling it personality, since I see personality as a combination of expectations and abilities, or desires and skills.  The MC is just this kind of person and so is the town she comes from.  It's like she's from a more gritty reality, taking a vacation in a more fairy tale place.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449549}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319755739.9730561, "message": "I know you keep talking about her as Steadfast, but her backstory makes it seem like she has to change in order to receive the benefits of the world she lives in.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449573}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759859.9819031, "message": "She has a goal -- get a bun in the oven. Her challenge is to get that bun into the oven. \n\nOne of her hurdles -- she discovers much to her dislike -- is that reaching this goal challenges her paradigm. But that's when she must face it. It's not the challenge defining her journey -- it's merely something she has to deal with on her journey.\n\nDoes that make sense?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450109}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319760235.526763, "message": "probably isn't :P", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450163}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759740.653532, "message": "No.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450085}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319760360.2394359, "message": "ok I'll think about that and we can discuss it tomorrow.  And no OS activity and MC manipulation isn't a valid combo.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450182}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759442.4769371, "message": "What makes it seem like baggage?  It's not a burden on her, or something that 'stuck' to her in the past, it's just who she is in the exact same way the IC is just a somewhat naive hopeless romantic.  Or, like, city mouse and country mouse, if you're familiar with that children's story?  They're both suited to their environments and happy in them, they both have abilities the other doesn't have, potentially they could be a great team exactly because they're opposite.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450028}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759809.994107, "message": "you don't think that's what the Changing One's Nature part is about?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450099}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319760271.426698, "message": "oops. Because the *are* different!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450168}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319758156.771904, "message": "I know this will make you excited, but I think we may be ready to start talking Domains.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2449869}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759509.6041341, "message": "It's baggage because she's no longer in the environment where it is suitable.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450037}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759673.6719611, "message": "Well, I agree she's a fish out of water, I think that it's just that I don't like the word baggage", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450069}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759745.6494861, "message": "so she had to remain aware of her home = herself", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450086}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759572.884459, "message": "So, what do you think the Domains are?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450049}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759538.0546131, "message": "She's a fish out of water, with a sense of the way the world works that is going to work against her here.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450044}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759754.5150609, "message": "No.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450088}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759772.6283109, "message": "but yeah I like paradigm", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450091}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759993.5542159, "message": "Would she give up the baby if that was required?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450129}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759499.3118131, "message": "But yes, yay domains!  :)  Also yay that I'm finally done cooking.  Today was first frost so we had to quick harvest all the veggies that were still in the garden.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450035}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759565.146786, "message": "I have 8 minutes, then I'm gone for the night.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450047}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759577.974277, "message": "Hmm, she intends all along to go home though.  It's just a vacation to her", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450050}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759582.5381229, "message": "aw", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450051}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759615.226768, "message": "But the story doesn't take place in her home. That's the thing! The story isn't about her home, it's about her when she's not at home.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450060}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759616.8580091, "message": "Well, I do think OS is activity", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450061}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319760046.2605021, "message": "getting the baby is part of being true to herself but she'd give up on getting it from him or at this time if she had to.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450132}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759685.2463219, "message": "It's irrelevant to this phase of her life, this story, that she intends to go home. Because she could find the man of her dreams and stay in this place. She could pick up an injured bird and decide to become a naturalist. It's important to see where the story is, in time and space.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450075}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759724.630475, "message": "no, her challange is to remain true to herself despite the new environment and new temptations", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450083}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759723.9935141, "message": "I used baggage because I didn't want to use \"justifications\". Let's just say she has a paradigm about how the world is that doesn't mesh with where she is during the story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450082}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759916.4375811, "message": "I agree with that but ultimately she does not change her paradigm.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450117}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319760244.1108339, "message": "Okay, I have to go, but I'm going to sign off with something about clarity.\nIf she would give up the baby to stay true to herself -- that is the relevant thing for *this* story.\nIt doesn't matter (to the storyform) that she would continue to pursue the goal later.\nI really want you to be able to separate those things.\nBecause they are not different, and her change/steadfast has nothing to do with her actually getting the baby. It's about how she makes the decision to get the baby or not.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450164}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319760071.655468, "message": "This is why judgment is about mc throughline not os", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450137}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319759965.739496, "message": "She meets the challenge by having the strength of character not to change", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450124}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319760226.343894, "message": "OS is the big goal, obtaining, but MC is about dos she do what's right for her, (not) Changing One's Nature, though I don't know offhand if that's a valid thoughline assignment", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450162}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319760876.724159, "message": "Great, chat tomorrow.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450248}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319761155.7996271, "message": "Ok, this is actually not a problem.  What was throwing me off was that I don't recall reading anything in Dramatica-related theory about the relationship of the MC/IC throughline to the Judgment.  But in romances in particular the outcome of the relationship is actually more important than any individual growth.  I mean yeah, both hero and heroine need to have some personal growth, but the story is judged bad if they two don't end up as a couple.  Doesn't even matter if they are both happy to not be a couple, that's a miserable failure as far as romance genre standards are concerned.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450281}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319761799.4526441, "message": "So, yeah, that brings me back to the same throughline assignment I decided on earlier: OS Activity, MC Situation, MC/IC Manipulation, and IC Fixed Attitude.  I'd like it better if I could switch the throughlines around in some illegal way, but for this walkthrough I don't see any point going there.  So as far as legal things go this is the best option.  Mainly because the IC is definitely a Be-er, only Fixed Attitude and Situation are remotely appropriate to him, and Fixed Attitude makes way more sense than Situation.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450375}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319762087.0816791, "message": "Here's the dramatica dictionary entry for Fixed Attitude \"Fixed Attitude (a.k.a Mind) -- [Class] -- dyn.pr. Situation<-->Fixed Attitude -- a fixed minset\u00b7 The Fixed Attitude domain describes a fixed mindset. This can be a bias, prejudice, or even a \"positive\" opinion about anything at all. The key is that the attitude is fixed, meaning it is accepted as a given and not re-evaluated. Often the Fixed Attitude domain is represented by a group of people who share a common bias for or against something.\"  I think that corresponds really well to the IC.  He has a positive attitude about soulmates and maybe also women or people in general that is accepted a given and not re-evaluated.  He shares this attitude with a group of people, \"romance town\".  His attitude about children is a bias that he only re-evaluates at the very end because he's compelled to.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450416}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319762390.6185961, "message": "Fixed Attitude wouldn't be appropriate to the OS or MC/IC throughline because the MC doesn't share it.  Although she is firm about her goal of getting a child from the beginning, when presented with the option of possibly getting a soulmate although she is wary she immediately wants to investigate and evaluate this option, not ignore it or dismiss it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2450457}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319783625.0178449, "message": "But I'll try to present reasoning for the other throughlines also.  First I'll argue that Activity is NOT the MC throughline.  The MC clearly does plenty of activities, such as traveling, gathering information, and obtaining.  Doing might be the part where she's actually sleeping with the IC, and understanding the part where she can't bring herself to pick up a guy in a bar and realizes she only wants the IC's child.  But, none of these are things the MC does purely for herself, they all involve the IC and the outer world.  They are not her internal conflict or her personal growth.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2452417}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319784138.24632, "message": "So having explained why the MC throughline isn't Fixed Attitude or Activity, that leaves Situation or Manipulation.  The MC does think about the Future a lot, and also some about The Present and How Things Are Changing.  Not the Past really though, except maybe in a metaphorical way I haven't noticed yet.  (I'll note I always have trouble identifying the Situation in a story which isn't about time in a major way.  The Class names just strike me as more vague and abstract than the ones for the other three domains.)  The MC also does plenty of manipulating - she wears a disguise and acts persuasive/seductive (either could be Playing a Role), she is all about making Plans, and she had a few epiphanies, one of which is presumably Conceiving An Idea.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2452445}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319782303.1990421, "message": "Judgement is a balance of all the pros and cons from the perspective of the MC, so the MC/IC outcome just falls under that. \n\nBut, it's just as easy to say -- since this does have to fit genre rules -- that the romance works!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2452349}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319782733.5930231, "message": "I see that you did say why you think the IC is Fixed Attitude, but I'd rather start with the OS or MC if you don't mind. I feel like we have a lot more going on there. But if you feel strongly about starting with the IC, we can stick with him.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2452380}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319784377.384017, "message": "Of these two sets of actions, the one where she is thinking about the Future is arguably the most internal of all the things she does in the story.  She never shares her thoughts about the Future with the IC, and they are the main source of her motivation and internal conflict.  The Manipulation-related activities, on the other hand, are more external, aimed at the IC and others (potential nosy neighbors and potential one-night-stands).  So, Situation is probably the MC throughline.  Opinions on this reasoning?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2452460}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319782613.2194819, "message": "I think it's completely fine to try to put an illegal combination together, because this is just a starting point. \n\nBut, what you need to do is explain to me *why* you have chosen this breakdown (and I'd suggest we do that one at a time) because otherwise I have nothing to respond to.\n\nFor instance, here is one response: you say that the IC is a Be-er, and only Fixed Attitude and Situation are remotely appropriate.... and Situation demands that he is a Do-er. So that's all cockamamie.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2452368}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319783201.768651, "message": "I feel the IC is the most simple.  For the majority of the story he pretty clearly doesn't take any actions.  He just hangs around at home being kind of like a magnet tugging on the MC.  He's not playing any roles, developing any plans, gathering information, or doing.  So that's why I thought the other two throughlines were the only option for him.  (It does often baffle me that manipulation goes with be-ers and situation goes with do-ers though.  The other way around seems way more natural and realistic to me.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2452402}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319787588.257334, "message": "Just to muddy the waters *sigh* I could probably come up for an argument why Fixed Attitude could be the MC throughline.  I mean, she does have Innermost Desires; it would be hard to argue that any major character isn't motivated by their Innermost Desires.  Although the synopsis doesn't mention her memories at all, it doesn't mention the IC's memories either.  Presumably they each have some memories which contribute to their motivation.  The IC probably has memories connected with pairs of soulmates and soulmate magic rituals, while the MC probably has memories of people with children.  Both characters arguably have a moment where they contemplate the fact that their approach is not working so well for them, and also a moment where they happily contemplate the fact that things are currently working out well for them.  And they both have Impulsive Responses, because again it would be really difficult to argue that any major character doesn't.  They each physically desire and are charmed by the other.  The MC experiences fear of lack of control and also experiences longing for a child.  But generally I think that all of these things are more essentially inside the IC than inside the MC.  And they are definitely not between the two characters or involving the outside world in any way, so Fixed Attitude can't possibly be either the OS or the MC/IC throughline.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2452630}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319789267.2523229, "message": "I guess that only leaves the question of which of Manipulation and Activity is the OS and which is the MC IC.  I've already described what I see as the Activities and Manipulations in the MC and IC parts of the story.  The Activities seem to include the outside world more.  What the MC fears from the nosy neighbors is them gathering information and then developing a plan to act on that information.  Romance town is all about obtaining soulmates, and the tradition of making spell stones and visiting the garden to see if they call to you could fit into developing a plan or doing.  Even the one night stand guys are indulging in the activity of partying at a bar and trying to obtain a bed-partner for the night.  On the other hand Manipulation seems largely limited to the MC but the reason for this is that the IC doesn't know they have a relationship until act three, and then it just falls into his lap so he doesn't really have to try to influence the MC in any way.  Arguably the IC's soulstone is Playing A Role when it calls to the MC though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2452697}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319812034.8234589, "message": "You speak of the MC's internal conflicts a few times. If the inequity is internal for her than she belongs in the lower two quadrants.  You argue that OS cannot be in Fixed Attitude because they don't all share the same attitude but that contradicts what you said about OS in activity. I argued the are not actively pursuing the same goal and you said they are all about obtaining. So what cannot they all have fixed attitudes just about different things?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2454126}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319815428.4306581, "message": "Well, the MC has to have internal conflict in every story.  Internal conflict can be worked out in any of the four domains.  For example a character who does a solitary sport like mountain climbing might have a MC throughline of Activity and this is the thing that clears his head and allows him to work out inner turmoil.  In a different story a character's solitary activities might be a Fixed Attitude activity like reciting mantras, developing a delusional personal vision, or putting up posters about some political issue.  A Manipulation IC could be someone interested in exploring their own psychological and emotional reactions to different external stimuli, or someone with a plan to sculpt themselves into a role like \"perfect lady\" or \"go-getter executive\".  There are lots of example of all these within the Dramatica program that can be found in the Query System, under Theme, under MC Throughline.  So that's the general theory but it's an interesting question, \"What would a Fixed Attitude OS look like in this story?\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2454614}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319816215.083822, "message": "With a Fixed Attitude OS the MC would pretty much have to be either directly arguing with the IC, or the two characters would have to exemplify the contradictory principles from two philosophies or factions that disagree with each other, or if it was more of a buddy story the MC and IC could be from the same faction and exemplify its argument against the rest of the characters.  If this story was actually about arguing whether soulmates are good, or the story was actually about arguing which of the MC and IC was being wrong-headed in their beliefs or approach about whether to be suspicious or trusting, a do-er or a be-er, etc., that could be a Fixed Attitude OS.  But it's not, neither of them is wrong nor do they object to each other's ways of doing or being.  It would be really hard to do an \"agree to disagree\" attitude among all the characters as the OS because there's no conflict there, what's the iniquity?  I guess you could do a story where the problem was that everyone agreed and there was no diversity or flexibility, but that's clearly not this story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2454750}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319819200.247767, "message": "Chris is always saying to be careful not to talk about MC and IC in the OS throughline", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2455091}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319819469.9811449, "message": "It seems this story really focuses on the main character so why does she want a baby? To satisfy an external need or an internal need? Is it a process that needs to stop? Or is she stuck and needs to change?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2455116}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319822787.2608631, "message": "Whew, there is a lot to catch up on here.\nLet's start here: \"I feel the IC is the most simple. For the majority of the story he pretty clearly doesn't take any actions. He just hangs around at home being kind of like a magnet tugging on the MC.\"\n\nI know that the general way people go at Dramatica is to fill in the easiest answers first. But that isn't actually what you have done here. What you've done here is taken a character that provides you no clues at all as to where it belongs, and then put him somewhere.\n\nI get that he's simple, but what he really is is poorly defined (at this point). You don't know what he does or how he goes about doing it.\n\nSo, I'm removing him from Fixed Attitude, and leaving that blank for now.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2455439}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319823178.985929, "message": "Onward: \"(It does often baffle me that manipulation goes with be-ers and situation goes with do-ers though. The other way around seems way more natural and realistic to me.)\"\n\nI get that, but this is a major understanding that MUST be cleared up.\n\nI know you always talk about having a non-Western mind, but I think you're just ducking out of doing the hard work to understand what the theory is saying. \n\nWhy do you see Manipulation as a Do-er Activity?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2455515}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319824380.115993, "message": "@sunandshadow You really have to stop referring to the MC and the IC as characters in the OS. Dramatica has a convention not to do that, not to mention that it actually makes no sense to do that in the realm of Dramatica. So it's really really confusing.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2455718}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319827651.815547, "message": "Yes, a Be-er affects the inner world and a Do-er affects the external world.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456099}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319826674.475425, "message": "Can I please have some links or chapter numbers for discussion about not referring to the MC and IC as characters in the OS?  Because it's possible I may have not read whatever you are both referencing.  I would have said with absolute certainty that the MC takes a role in every throughline except the IC throughline.  Even when the MC is not the protagonist they still need to have some kind of major role in the OS.  So Im confused now.\n\nAs for why manipulation is doing:  I think of myself as a manipulation MC in much of my life.  Persuading, entertaining, and otherwise trying to influence people through one's appearance, words, and actions, is an extremely active thing to do.  People are objects in the world not too much different from, say, buildings.  If I want to build up a person's confidence, that's a similar kind of activity to shoring up the foundation of a house.  If I want to mentally poison someone that's the same kind of activity as committing arson.  I am a creative problem solver, a do-er.  I write, I cook, I paint, all with the goal of solving problems by affecting other people's thoughts and opinions through my creations.  I choose my clothes to make a good impression because that avoids problems and sets the stage for a possible romance.  So, from the inside manipulation sure feels like an activity, just a mental one rather than a physical one.  Now, all that aside I understand that Dramatica isn't drawing the same distinction there that I want to.  As far as I can tell what it actually means by be-er is \"someone focused on the inside of people's heads\" while do-er is \"someone focused on the world outside people\".", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2455991}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319828267.5983109, "message": "There's no external change in what I just said, btw.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456165}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319828318.635848, "message": "How?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456172}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319827483.5641439, "message": "Yes, a beer affects the -", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456084}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319827411.292042, "message": "I don't have any direct link to why you don't talk about the MC in the OS, but I'll explain the reasoning. \n\nThe OS is an objective look at the world. The MC is a subjective look at the world. \n\nThis means that if you have someone on a rock-climbing expedition, you get a breakdown like this:\nProtagonist: Get to the top of the rock wall.\nMC: overcome my fear of heights.\n\nThe same person -- the same physical body -- is climbing the wall. But the \"novice rock climber\" is the Protagonist, and the \"person afraid of heights\" is the MC.\n\nThe things that the novice rock climber encounters and has to deal with (making sure she has all of her equipment) are not the same thing the agoraphobe has to deal with (forcing herself to trust the carabiners will support her weight). \n\nIt's tricky, because in a single sentence you can writer, \"Mandy was terrified at the way the rope pulled through the carabiner, but was determined to reach the top,\" and be referring to both storylines! \n\nBut, this person could get 90% up the wall and feel as though she's conquered her fear of heights (judgement: good) but the Protagonist will still have Failed.\n\nWhen you refer to someone in the OS by their subjective role, you confuse which issue the character is dealing with.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456078}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319827901.6556449, "message": "I think what's going on here is that you are thinking about it from the wrong perspective. It's not about what you do, it's about what your problem is. Think about it from that end.\n\nYou want romance. \nProblem: No bedroom available. (Seems external, but it isn't necessarily external!)\nExternal solution: Find another dark, comfortable place.\nInternal solution: Make yourself and your lover comfortable with the idea of having sex in the kitchen.\n\nThe first one says, \"We can fix this by finding a location that can give us what the bedroom gives us -- solitude, comfort, a Sade album.\"\nThe second one says, \"We can fix this by changing our expectations of what we need. We don't need a bedroom. We just need you and me.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456122}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319828146.903949, "message": "By the way, when I say, \"think about what the problem is\" this also means, \"think about how the character solves the problem.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456149}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319828160.3568461, "message": "But the signposts and stuff within the Manipulation throughline aren't really about changing expectations.  Things like playing a role are about changing externals to cater to existing expectations instead of challenge them.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456150}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319828216.6578901, "message": "Right, a person who goes and has sex in a kitchen because it's the only thing available hasn't become a person who only likes sex in a kitchen, they're playing the role of someone who likes sex in a kitchen because it's the best available option.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456156}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319828286.6312361, "message": "It sure sounds external instead of internal to me.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456168}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319828393.2928009, "message": "The character has the internal desire to get the best sex available.  Usually that requires a bedroom, but when it isn't available they take the option which is the next best because it is the external environment most similar to a bedroom.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456182}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319828424.8658049, "message": "They might modify the physical environment of the kitchen to make it more bedroomy by pulling the shades and lighting candles.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456186}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319828541.5337851, "message": "In general I think a problem with trying to divide things into internal and external is that people often act in one realm with a goal of affecting the other realm.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456199}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319830710.126863, "message": "You're thinking about solving this problem externally, which is why it seems external to you. \n\nLet me try to paint you into a corner. \n\nYour character is like Howie Mandell, so petrified of germs that he doesn't touch anybody. But he's found someone he is in love with, and he feels for the first time in a while a crazy lust building up in his body. But to have sex, he has to deal with his phobia.\n\nName an external way to do this, and an internal one.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456371}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319836157.3646359, "message": "Well, an external way might be to establish a house with an airlock/decontamination shower that the lover would go through each time they visited.  Or for a less ethical guy, kidnap the love interest, scrub them thoroughly and then keep them in a cage where they can't come into contact with new germs.  An internal way might be going to therapy for his phobia and reinforcing that with self therapy such as mantras.  Which would staging incidents designed to make the love interest start being germophobic be?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456830}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837383.1951239, "message": "The relevant point of all this is that I don't really know how to determine whether the MC's need for a child is internal or external.  So maybe just directly attack that?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456956}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837447.5642669, "message": "Ah. Ready for a surprise?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456958}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837683.71611, "message": "Not even your methods. There's only one method to get up a rock face: climb. That wouldn't necessarily put me in a Do-er category.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456979}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837059.423439, "message": "It's just so much easier to see the division between the two static domains and the two change domains that it's irritating the program and theory treats the other difference as more important.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456925}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319836609.8159931, "message": "Making the love interest germophobic wouldn't solve the problem.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456871}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837244.273829, "message": "Yes, making the mc a do-er or be-er and this limited to the appropriate two MC throughlines is built into the story engine.  No such trait which would be the equivalent of be-er and do-er in the other dimension seems to exist.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456936}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837598.5413289, "message": "Well you answered your question then, that's saying the method used determines throughline, not the goal.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456973}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837850.5600181, "message": "A manipulation character... he's afraid of death. He studies Buddhism, and learns that accepting death means to overcome one's fear of death.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456998}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837972.421504, "message": "How would that help him get up a rock face?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457020}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837105.4757359, "message": "I don't think the program treats one as more vital. Does it?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456929}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837492.5082209, "message": "sure", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456963}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319838042.252104, "message": "Hire someone to carve it into stairs?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457025}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837766.619092, "message": "But activity and fixed attitude are the easy two.  How does a manipulation character deal with trying to accomplish a goal despite fear?  How does a situation character deal with it?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456987}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837846.4398019, "message": "But learning a new skill is an internal approach", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456997}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837962.4941051, "message": "I'm also cheating because I'm letting the guy plan ahead too much.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457017}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319836707.9536321, "message": "But anyway, yes. \nExternal things include bleach.\nInternal things include dealing with the phobia itself.\n\nDo those both seem like Do-er activities to you?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456882}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837694.025038, "message": "If I'm afraid of heights= > Fixed Attitude.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456980}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837853.645756, "message": "Situation is external", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456999}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319836748.3182869, "message": "No dealing with the phobia itself seems like a be-er thing.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456891}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319836719.2224729, "message": "Sure it would, germophobes keep themselves as clean as possible, so the ideal lover for a germaphobe would be another germaphobe who could be trusted to understand the importance and technique of eliminating germs", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456886}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319836821.6969121, "message": "I guess if you make the love interest into a germophobe by covering them with germs all the time, that's Do-er (you're changing an environment). By talking to them and showing them what germs can do to you would be a Be-er thing.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456900}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837355.0825851, "message": "I think answering your question about internal/external means is going to take me a while to get my head around.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456954}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837593.028182, "message": "I want to get to the moon. That's clearly an external, active thing. If I'm afraid I'm going to explode in zero gravity, that's an internal thing, and I'd be a \"be-er\".", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456972}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837804.9446609, "message": "And BTW when you said your throughline, you meant MC throughline, not OS throughline, right?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456992}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319836947.2484779, "message": "Making the kitchen into a bedroomy place (as you suggested above) is external because you're changing the environment. Not only that, that particular character doesn't want a bedroom, they want the comforts of a bedroom (moody lighting, etc.) and that's different.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456914}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319836883.2008431, "message": "So, having sex in the kitchen is a be-er thing because it deals with our concept of where is an acceptable place to have sex. If you want a bedroom only, but convince yourself the kitchen will do, it's internal.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456907}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319836946.1379831, "message": "See that's the confusing point - if the goal is to change the love interest's way of thinking, does it matter if you use internal or external means?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456913}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837287.510772, "message": "^and thus limited", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456944}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837501.495589, "message": "I don't think it matters.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456964}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837510.2526169, "message": "lol ok why?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456965}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319838061.8455369, "message": "The thing is that the situation is what's going to be causing his problem constantly in a case like this.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457027}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837555.0226941, "message": "That's her goal. That is what it is. The real question is \"what does she do to go about getting that goal and what kinds of things stand in her way?\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456969}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837648.6052561, "message": "I tend to think it's what causes you problems that determines your throughline.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456976}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837818.347398, "message": "Okay. A situation character... he's blind. So he learns to echolocate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2456995}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837941.9364829, "message": "A blind situation character might move to a city where everyone is blind, that seems like a better example.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457015}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837987.3153939, "message": "That's the goal we've given this guy.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457022}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319837999.469234, "message": "Go around instead of up?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457023}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319838106.2125821, "message": "Blindness is a problem because you hire a guy, and then you don't see when he takes the money and runs. Now you're blind again, and halfway up a rock face...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457034}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319838158.657064, "message": "The problem is, the source of the problem is pretty much irrelevant to the technique used to attack the problem.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457037}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319838168.344506, "message": "But, to go back to the baby issue -- she wants this baby. That's her goal. She could go get laid by her neighbor, but we've ruled that out for a bunch of good reasons. But when she gets to this new town, something pulls her up short. That thing that pulls her up short -- that is what we are looking for. That's going to be her through line.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457038}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319838178.4750869, "message": "You can attack a problematic situation directly by changing that situation.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457039}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319838298.0977421, "message": "Oh her concern about being cautious, controlling information and situations and acting ethically toward others.  That's definitely the thing that slows her down in getting the baby.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457048}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319838195.4460139, "message": "Or indirectly by changing yourself or other people, etc.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457041}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319838326.830852, "message": "The soulmate thing also distracts her but its from a different angle.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457050}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319839955.8249481, "message": "Ugh, so many posts lost.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457174}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319840059.0367279, "message": "I see her reaction to the soulmate as controlling and cautious, anyway.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457185}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319840106.919018, "message": "The different angle I meant is the positive side to it, the desire to have her cake and eat it too.  And yeah ugh about post problems.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457191}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319840192.914525, "message": "I solved the riddle of the blind person trying to get up a cliff with manipulation, too.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457196}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319844369.9255209, "message": "Well, from my point of view what I want is the most useful set of reports to help develop the story further.  Ideally, a set of reports that won't push any part of the story in a direction that feels wrong.  So as far as throughlines go, theoretically they need to be accurate so the reports are accurate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2457550}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319855437.7394061, "message": "The kitchen sex thought experiment was really only meant to explore the difference between be-ing and do-ing, internal and external. It's not really a throughline/domain discussion.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2458538}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319862175.8951859, "message": "Let me get this last thing out: \r\nSo, here's the thing about the blind person getting up the cliff face and Manipulation. \r\n\r\nThe link isn't just one step. It's more like, \"Being blind has taught a person to think differently, and that style of thinking is problematic.\" Ultimately, whatever thinking problem the guy has could be something anyone, blind or not, could have. The actual problem, when you put your finger on it, would be a manner of thinking, not the blindness.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2459379}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319860162.543263, "message": "Being vs. Doing _is_ a Domain difference though. A do-er character by definition must have an personal throughline of Activity or Situation. A be-er character must have a personal througline of Fixed Attitude or Manipulation.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2459169}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319861288.9920399, "message": "Maybe we could go back to talking about my posts where I was presenting my reasoning about why I thought Activity was not the MC throughline, etc.?  I identified several things within the story that I thought fit each domain, perhaps you could confirm or disagree with those first?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2459310}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319862336.380971, "message": "I was going to fix your post (take out the MC) but it's pretty obvious that the Future Mother does the traveling and is part of the OS. The Future Mother also goes into the garden and checks out the rocks, and puts on a costume.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2459390}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319862083.3942959, "message": "Right, but we weren't linking that being or doing to the OS/MC/IC or SS. That's all I meant.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2459370}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319862537.3700171, "message": "The Future Mother decides go to this town and find a man. She interviews someone. I wish I knew what other characters did -- because it's hard to say what \"everyone\" is involved in if she's the only real character mentioned. Because, her problem comes from not really trusting the whole soulstone thing. \r\n\r\nYou've mentioned the IC, but I don't know what he's involved in or where he runs into problems.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2459403}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319864238.175446, "message": "The woman is named Omilla and the man is named Varan, if that makes talking about them less awkward.  They are the only two major characters in the story, at least in the current version.  The minor characters are: guys at bar, guards/guides at soulstone garden, manager of the hotel Omilla is staying at, and hypothetical interfering neighbors in Omilla's town.  The soulstone acts as a minor character or extension of Varan.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2459496}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319864425.620271, "message": "Varan's problem is that he is sitting around having faith that his soulmate will come to him and he almost misses her without even knowing she is there because he doesn't investigate/pursue/have suspicion that he is being kept ignorant or that she might have a reason not to want to be his soulmate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2459505}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319866031.7410271, "message": "He thinks that waiting and being himself will solve his lack of a soulmate, but it's not enough, and he doesn't realize it's not enough until Omilla vanishes after they have been lovers.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2459597}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319897974.7705679, "message": "Using their names won't help much, because we actually have to keep them distinct when talking about the OS or the MC. The convention is that their \"role\" is used when talking about the OS. If you don't like \"Future Mother\", then define her role another way. We can use their names for the MC and IC through lines.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2461068}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319898084.451401, "message": "Your description of Varan is all well and good, but it doesn't explain what he would be like in the face of problems -- and that's the vital information.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2461078}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319902744.6927171, "message": "It doesn't explain why he would be like in the face of problems?  Oblivious, confident, and having faith that problems will solve themselves is what he's like until his big Change moment.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2461441}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320174872.501075, "message": "I've got to get you off this style of thinking: \"that she's in a battle to stay true to herself.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485579}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319905143.8802321, "message": "Let me phrase it this way: in the face of ordinary situations, what about him causes problems?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2461736}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319912809.9425681, "message": "The real thing is that I can't figure out what motivates this guy or what causes his problems. I can see someone's confidence causing problems, but in this case -- with him expecting the world to solve his problems -- and the woman half-avoiding him because she doesn't trust the soulmate concept... what is forcing them together? What is putting them into the the same room so they can have issues? \n\nVaran seems to do nothing, and think nothing. This feels like -- but it isn't necessarily -- like you are avoiding anything that will make this story pop. \n\nIf confidence is a problem, then it has to lead him to a worse place. I suppose you could argue that it pushes his true love away -- although she seems to do that on her own -- but even so, if he is oblivious and trusts the universe to fix things, then he doesn't know he's in a worse place and it causes him no consternation. I'd argue then that he's not really in a worse place, because his motivation remains equal.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2462527}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319914602.405185, "message": "The soulmate thing is what is pulling them together, I think I mentioned the concept that it is like magnets, and the more one is exposed to one's soulmate the stronger a bond forms, making it uncomfortable and unpleasant to be apart for mare than a day or two.  It's sort of like fate or destiny, and of course instinct or senses and attraction.  I do like somewhat quiet stories with less extreme conflict, but I think there's lots of conflict already, it just doesn't involve Varan much.  His problem pretty much has to be easy to solve because it has to get solved fast once Omilla has left town, because her story is all but over at that point, his can't drag on.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2462703}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319918315.728977, "message": "Varan does notice a few times that things aren't quite right, but he dismisses the signs until they grow larger and smack him in the face.  I do think that describes a problem (or rather, technically it's the Response) of having too much confidence or faith.  Maybe he is in denial.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2463043}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319933854.483135, "message": "So, what else should I be providing or answering here?  What next?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2464402}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319947779.4059441, "message": "I think the thing holding me up is a lack of specifics. You know a lot more than you've been able to share. So, yes, I can see why someone has too much confidence or faith leading to problems, but with no context it seems like he's avoiding (as I've already said). \n\nWhat I'm trying to figure out is how this guy who is oblivious and doesn't act influences the MC. Because even if she is ultimately steadfast, her resolve should be tested. Or else, she does no work to stay steadfast.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2465671}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319948025.523077, "message": "Also, I think that this might not be an Obtaining Story.\n\nI think this might be a Progress story. The woman decides she's ready to change her life, the soulmate thing grows stronger and stronger. And at the end of the story, she doesn't have the baby, but she likes how things are going.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2465692}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319947891.8422811, "message": "I hear you that you don't like things that have too much conflict, but I don't really know what that means actually. I don't read romances, so do we even have an overlap to look for examples? \n\nThere are always conflicts and obstacles. I don't really know what makes one \"bigger\" or \"smaller\".", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2465681}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319949619.376822, "message": "Ok, I'll talk about not liking too much conflict first.  Basically I only like stories where the tone is mostly positive throughout the story.  So, no stories where characters actually hate each other or are motivated by rage or desire for revenge, if possible no deaths or serious injuries.  It's ok if someone who really deserves it must be killed to protect others though.  No horror, no tragedy, no serious takes on war.  Angst can be okay as part of romantic melodrama where the reader knows ahead of time it's going to be resolved happily.  But primarily I like humor, romance, adventure, psychodrama that's on the lighter side.  A story where I don't feel anxious that bad things will happen while I'm reading it.  One of the things I had to learn when I first started writing was that if I wanted my stories to have any plot at all I had to carefully plan a story around the few types of conflict I actually enjoy writing (sneaking around in disguise and internal conflict are two of my favorites) because I find many common plot events and archetypes offputting.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2465823}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319950725.6004, "message": "The way the man tests the woman's resolve is by tempting her to settle into being his (childless) lover.  Maybe some subconscious part of her always thought she ought to have a soulmate, but it never happened in all the years she was living in her own town, over which time her practical decided it was vanishingly unlikely, and not a reason to wait and wait for romance before having the child she wanted.  I guess this could be seen as a dream/hope thing.  But anyway she's lonely, she's aware that having a soulmate is something which has the potential to be a really powerful experience, although she sees that it could be powerful in a good way or a bad way, while the man only sees the good side, and sees it more as something natural than something supernaturally powerful.  She has already decided not to look actively for a soulmate, instead she is putting all her focus into getting a child, and specifically getting it in a safe/controlled/protected way.  But then the soulstone calls to her.  To walk away from something like that would be like tearing out a little piece of your heart.  Once she actually sees the man and recognizes him as her soulmate, giving up on him would tear out a bigger piece of heart.  By the time she has slept with him, not to mention spent time getting to know him, leaving him is a really painful thing to do that tests her resolve a lot.  But she makes the hard decision to leave, remaining steadfast.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2465920}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319951209.1261849, "message": "Hmm, Progress.  That's How Things Are Changing in the other term set, which is in Big 4 Type 4 with Playing A Role, Doing, and Impulsive Responses.  I guess being pregnant/being a mother could be a goal of Doing.  The soulmates/attraction thing could be Impulsive Responses.  The disguise business fits with Playing a Role except I'm not sure how it's a goal.  Maybe the goal is playing whatever role doesn't result in interfering neighbors or interfering baby-daddies or a dangerously possessive soulmate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2465959}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319951667.4145479, "message": "I'm of course willing to provide more specifics, but I'm not sure what parts of the story I need to describe in more detail.  I'm not sure there is much of anything else to say about the man - it's not his story, he's not present in the story until it's mentioned that the men of this town make soul stones, and then his soul stone calls to the woman.  He's not _personally_ present until the woman interviews him in disguise.  Then he's absent again except in her thoughts until she decides only he will do as the father of her child, and she's going to get a baby from him will-he or nil-he.  He only comes into his own after that part, first as a cheerful and doting lover, then when she vanishes and he realizes he'll lose her if he doesn't track her down and fix this.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2465988}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319977380.505558, "message": "Does it help to think of 'Playing a Role' as concern rather than a goal?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2467872}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320286416.9851069, "message": "This would satisfy my \"want\" for baby daddy to not be aware of his true desire to be a babydaddy.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496211}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320173229.651566, "message": "Anyway, now that we've got the OS in Mind, we can think about the OS Goal in those terms.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485404}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319996632.5598791, "message": "I think I've put my finger on a place that this story needs to be developed. You talk about Varan and his impact on the woman in his OS role only. What is his personal problem -- what motivates him, how does he make decisions, how does he go about trying to better his lot? And what about that -- which the woman observes in some way -- tests her, or makes her reconsider her motivations, her decisions and process and how she goes about bettering her lot? \n\nThis is one of the reasons that it is wise to talk about the IC differently in each through line -- that's three. The OS role, the IC and the SS.\n\nBy smudging them all together, you can mistakenly convince yourself you've dealt with everything.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2469577}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1319996371.6665211, "message": "It's interesting. I would never have categorized your preference as a lack of conflict. It sounds like you would be fine with a story where a person had to deal with a choice between inheriting a kingdom and finding a lover, which seems like a huge conflict to me, although between two potentially very good things. Am I understanding you correctly?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2469546}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320172936.745435, "message": "The overall story is about\" remaining true to oneself leads to happiness\" I can really get on board Omilla as the protagonist of that story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485373}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320176994.4933131, "message": "Can I ask what the authors definition of true soulmates for this story is? Not any of the characters view but what the authors definition ?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485812}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320010608.207196, "message": "I'd like a story that had a person torn between gaining a kingdom and gaining a lover as long as it ended happily, i.e. either they chose the lover and decided they didn't want the kingdom anyway, or they got both.  The reason I think of myself as preferring lower-conflict stories is the way people always give writing advice like \"What's the worst thing that could happen to your character?  Make that happen and your story will have good conflict.  I disagree strongly, I think that the worst thing is often too much.  People also talk about how it's important or necessary for a character to sacrifice something.  I disagree with that, I don't like stories where there's a real sacrifice of something a character genuinely suffers to give up.  The things I like to see characters sacrifice are their flaws and their fears, things they should be getting rid of and are clinging to wrongly.  I don't believe in torturing my characters, comparing a story's body count with other writers, etc.  My rule of thumb is \"no irreparable damage\", meaning a story only truly had a happy ending if no one gets maimed, raped, mentally broken, and no nice guy bystanders or good guy main characters get killed.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2471113}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320011228.085988, "message": "The problem with developing the IC more is that for this particular story idea I don't want the IC to be a viewpoint character or have a bigger role than I've described already.  I've got plenty of other story ideas where the MC and IC have almost equal roles, including one where the IC is the protagonist.  But I chose this particular story idea for the walkthrough partly because it's such a simple story: only two major characters and it's completely obvious that the woman is both the MC and the protagonist.  I don't want the IC throughline to be a large part of this story.  It feels to me like the amount it has already been developed is the appropriate amount.  So, I'm not sure where to go from there.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2471168}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320011860.9559169, "message": "@sam_potter Is concern actually different from goal?  I mean, the Dramatica dictionary defines concern as \"The category or nature of that for which the characters in a given throughline are most anxious, eager, or which they hope to protect or affect.\"  So that's not the method they are using to pursue a goal, e.g. disguises, that's the target they are aiming at.  The various concerns in this story are the woman wanting a baby, the woman trying to protect and control her situation via disguises and secrets, and the whole bit about soulmates and love.  That's only three, I'm less sure about the fourth, but I think it might be about wanting to be helpful and ethical.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2471224}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320016956.5757699, "message": "@sunandshadow You can write the story any way you want.  The ?Contagonist?/Babydaddy/Varan/IC will only be in the story as much as you put him in... BUT as far as developing your story form and your reports, I say, develop him as much as possible.   The stronger he is the stronger your reports and storyform will be, thus the stronger your whole story and all of its parts will be.  Embrace it, darling. <G>", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2472067}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287177.125052, "message": "OK. Concern of future what did you guys come up with?  Oh, yeah.  they're ideal futures and how they conflict.  that's good.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496358}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287266.3138299, "message": "don't have it too.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496367}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320022361.9283431, "message": "Lol, well I can't argue with that.  Would it be helpful if I put the two of them in the build characters screen, and then posted here the list of which traits went with which?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2472881}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320027217.9134991, "message": "I decided to do this, figured it couldn't hurt.  So here is the Methodology quarter of the Character Building stuff, organized by dynamic pairs; if the paragraph breaks work properly Omilla will be the left column and Varan the right column.\nOmilla                 Varan\nProtection            Inaction\nProaction             Reaction\nNonacceptance   Acceptance\nReevaluation       Evaluation\nPotentiality          Certainty\nProbability           Possibility\nInduction             Deduction\nReduction           Production", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2473545}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320030044.7191861, "message": "The other two quarters didn't work out as neatly.  Some of the dynamic pairs both seemed to belong to the same character.  Some of the elements didn't seem to fit either character or seemed to fit both.  But I'll try to summarize.  First the normally divided pairs:\nOmilla Varan\nActuality Perception\nInequity Equity\nChaos Order\nProjection Speculation\nChange Inertia\nLogic Feeling\nReconsider Consider\nHelp Hinder\nOppose Support\n\nThe pair Faith-Disbelief seemed to both belong to Varan, and the rest belonged either to Omilla or both.  The rest being:\nConscience-Temptation\nPursuit-Avoidance\nControl-Uncontrolled\nDesire-Ability\nKnowledge-Though", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2473909}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320030075.744343, "message": "Oops and Aware-Self-Aware.  Done.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2473917}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320030131.874146, "message": "So you guys could either comment on any that seem incorrect, or comment on the implications of the pattern the assignments make, or comment on the group of oddballs at the end.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2473930}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320289878.0253689, "message": "Some comedy will come if Varan gets to have his crucial element of uncontrolled and Omilla has her crucial element of control.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496655}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320028490.446991, "message": "And the Evaluation quarter:\nOmilla Varan\nTheory Hunch\nUnproven Proven\nDetermination Expectation\nNon-accurate Accurate\nTest Trust\nCause Effect\nResult Process\nEnding Unending", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2473685}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320030923.1795521, "message": "So how does all of this help you to answer Mike's questions, \"What is his personal problem -- what motivates him, how does he make decisions, how does he go about trying to better his lot?\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2474050}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320032013.0908351, "message": "I was seeing it as more of a communication problem - that I have a feel for Varan but it's not coming across too clearly, so I thought maybe if I painted a word-picture of him using the build characters terms, that might show him in a rounder way.  Some of these terms will pertain to his OS role but if those are filtered out the rest ought to describe his IC and MC/IC roles.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2474169}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320032888.76331, "message": "How he goes about trying to better his lot probably includes Faith, Equity, Order, Certainty, and Acceptance.  Because he's an Inaction/Reaction character he just doesn't take action unless something external pushes him to (for example, tradition pushed him to make the soul stone in the first place).  If he finds himself starting to Disbelieve he reacts internally by renewing his Faith, reassuring himself that things are the way they are supposed to be and will work out for the best.  At a guess, that would be his IC Symptom/Response.  Then his actual problem might be his lack of Awareness and Self-Awareness (Omilla has both).  On the other hand my guess is his role in the MC/IC throughline might involve Hinder (specifically his lack of interest in children hinders Omilla and any possible growth of their relationship).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2474293}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320034576.2067699, "message": "Did you split all of the Character elements between just the two characters?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2474544}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320035274.326895, "message": "Yes.  I don't think there are any other characters who have a large enough role to represent an element.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2474630}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320036644.4576221, "message": "If his symptom were disbelief and he thinks that all he needs is enough faith.  I see Varan's issue is not wanting he emotional contract of taking care of a child.  His problem by be Omilla (is that the MC) She is avoiding him.  He doesn't overcome his fear of obligation until the protagonist pursues him. ( That may be a breakthrough for my understanding -- As the protagonist she can decide to pursue him but as the MC she is steadfast in her drive and responding to all the opposition she gets)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2474843}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320039084.9151609, "message": "I tend to see Varan objection to children as being that they represent chaos (and he represents order) rather than an emotional obligation.  But actually what you are saying sounds great to me if you switch the characters around - Omilla is afraid of emotional obligation, thus avoiding Varan as a soulmate (though pursuing his ability to sire a child), and she isn't forced to face her fear until he pursues her.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2475111}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320038974.2272601, "message": "...or however the writer spins it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2475094}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320039736.361876, "message": "That could be his impact on her.  Emotional obligation vs rationalization.  His problem is that she is avoiding him so he has to change from a be-er to a do-er and pursue.  (I know we are going to catch it for jumping forward like this.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2475199}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320039826.4528971, "message": "I'm sure we will, lol, but it does sound good. :)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2475212}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320080438.0594139, "message": "Mare, breaking down your character this way doesn't convey anything to me. I have no idea how you're going to use them. Not to mention that a character can have different traits in their OS and MC role (or IC or SS role).\n\n @sam_potter is right: you can't answer the question of what his personal problem is, at least not to the degree where you can demonstrate that he influences the MC in anything but his OS role. To me that means you actually don't have an IC.\n\nI don't anticipate or expect that these characters will be equal -- they don't have to do be if you don't want them to be. That's not the kind of balance Dramatica demands. But it does demand that an IC has an important methodology or situation or *something* that is specific to them that the MC can notice and weigh.\n\nYou say that you chose this story because it was simple and had two major characters only, but then one of the major characters barely exists in the story. \"Simple\" in this case means that it's falling short of the threshold of a GAS as far as I can see.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2476597}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320080478.4856479, "message": "Let me pose a different question: What is it about Varan that tempts Omilla to decide not to have a baby?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2476603}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320292227.7281809, "message": "convored!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496831}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320106809.723346, "message": "Well, I started to write a lengthy post here about the theory and technique of interpreting build characters data.  But then I realized it was Halloween and I didn't have time.  I'm also a bit confused by your complaint and follow-up question here - you are complaining that you don't understand what Varan's personal problem is, which is his IC role, but then you ask me about how he is tempting to Omilla which is his MC/IC role.  Not the same thing at all.  But to answer those two questions, his personal problem is most likely something related to Aware/Self Aware, because the fact that he lacks both is his real flaw and lesson he needs to learn to grow as a person.  But the tempting thing he symbolizes to Omilla is something like impractical Dream, while she's trying to focus on pragmatic Hope.  The two are related because they are both facets of Varan's dreamy idealism - it is the charming thing about him but also his weakness.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2479894}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320119944.2367041, "message": "@sunandshadow I have to say this is very frustrating.  It seems to me Mike is trying to get you to pin down some solid answers in at least one throughline and it seems that you just keep dancing around it.  You are a very good natured person so I know it is not evasive.  Let's recap...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2481462}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320120078.8355989, "message": "Act 4 - The woman sleeps with the man, gets herself pregnant, and returns to her hometown according to plan. However the man finds he can't stand the fact that she's gone. The affair had distracted him from the odd experience of the matchmaking interview and the anonymous favor that was randomly done for him, but now he investigates and finds that things don't add up. And didn't that interviewer rather resemble her lover, maybe a cousin or aunt of hers? He discovers that his lover was staying at the hotel and tracks her back to her hometown, intending to plead with her to become more permanent lovers, even if this requires him to move to her hometown. But when he gets there he finds out that she's pregnant and the whole story comes out. He decides children are tolerable if they make her happy and he can keep her. He gives her back the stone, which he has bought with him, and this is his culture's equivalent to a marriage proposal. She accepts, yay happy ending.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2481478}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320120162.905107, "message": "SunandShadow said--The MC wants children even if she has to sacrifice love. The IC wants love without the complication of children. For a statement of what the story is about how about: \"A creative woman who wants to have a baby finds this big current goal in conflict with her smaller long-standing goals of finding love and acting morally.\" Her angsting over the ethics of her actions seems important enough to include it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2481488}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320120049.790144, "message": "\u2022\t Act 3 - The woman is depressed but her path now seems clear - return the stone to the garden so hopefully someone else will feel drawn to it and be the man's soulmate, because he seemed really hopeful and eager at the prospect of finally meeting his fated lover. She knows this will be difficult, maybe even painful, because the spell on the stone calls to her such that she wants to hold it close and is very reluctant to abandon it. She feels guilty for having got the man's hopes up only to dash them by rejecting him. This would be particularly embarrassing and pitiable in local culture if it were known that a man was rejected by his soulmate. She hits on the idea of doing the man an anonymous favor which will make him happy, and decides this will karmically balance out her rejection of him. Satisfied with this, she proceeds to try to carry out her plan. The anonymous favor part works great, it does make the man very happy and she doesn't get caught. Putting the stone back makes her cry, but she manages to do it and is somewhat proud of herself afterwards for having done the right thing. The one night stand part, however, does not go so well. She goes to the bar, acceptably nice and attractive men flirt with her, but she just cannot bring herself to be interested in any of them after having met someone so close to perfect. So she finds herself back where she started the act, in her hotel room wracking her brains about what to do. She has an epiphany - she has been so concerned about the man's potential unhappiness that she hasn't given fair consideration to her own needs. What the man doesn't know won't hurt him - she will appear to him looking attractive, get him to sleep with her, if necessary lie about being on birth control, then once she's sure she's pregnant she'll go home with her baby, and he'll be left with a nice memory and never be put upon by being asked to help raise a child he's not interested in.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2481474}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320119971.2464499, "message": "Act 1 - A single woman decides she wants a child and is secure enough financially and socially to raise a child by herself. She'd really rather have a loving mate who would help her raise a child, but she's failed to find that for years and she's tired of waiting. She'll take one last shot at it - there is a town nearby which has strong local beliefs and traditions about soulmates and helping them find each other. If this succeeds, wonderful, she'll get her baby because her soulmate will sire it. But if (when) it fails, that town is a good vacationing place where she can go to a bar and pick up a one-night-stand to sire her baby.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2481466}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320119995.7267931, "message": "\u2022\tAct 2 - (edited)\u2026 She walks through the garden admiring the stones and is surprised when one seems to call to her. She is afraid to hope that it will really lead her to her soulmate because she can't face the pain of being disappointed again\u2026. Then she disguises herself, making herself seem older and/or less attractive so that even a real soulmate would not feel strongly attracted to her if he saw her. Then she poses as a servant of \"the woman who felt drawn by the stone\" and interviews the stone's creator using a matchmaking questionnaire. The man answers all the questions the way the woman wants to hear except the most important one - when asked about children he says he doesn't like children and doesn't particularly want any. Barely managing to hide her crushing disappointment the woman says this concludes the interview and leaves.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2481469}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320124610.8608961, "message": "I wanted to comment on. \"She must believe in soulmates enough to go to the town. I understand being skeptical. But when the town's rocks point one out to her, her assumption is that a future with him might be bad! This is not belief in a soulmate!\" Actually, that is not disbelief in soulmates, it is a different understanding of what a soulmate is. The IC and people of romance town assume soulmates are 100% good. They haven't analyzed soulmates or come to this conclusion logically, it's a belief made out of mostly enthusiasm and romanticism, similar to hero-worship. The MC takes a much more analytical and skeptical approach - she thinks okay, soul mates are two people who have a life time relationship. There's no guarantee that the details of that relationship are going to be particularly satisfying to both people. It might be possible to be trapped in an unhappy relationship with a soulmate.\n\nAs part of the main character's goal of protecting her child and ensuring it a good future, the only thing that makes choosing a random guy to sire her child ok is that she plans for him to never be involved with the child. That would be quite difficult to do with someone from her own town. We could also add that maybe she feels bitter toward the men of her own town just because none of them has shown much interest in her. The idea of her stay in romance town as a fun/luxurious vacation which is a departure from her usual routine also parallels the idea that choosing to have a child without a husband is her breaking her routine of having an empty life to do something for herself which, like a vacation, is a \"needed luxury\".  [A self-nurturing activity, an act of being true to oneself and one's deep needs and desires which are required for happiness.]", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2481842}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320124115.877888, "message": "Quoting stuff from above seems like a good idea.  Here are a few more I think were key points:\n\n\"Remaining true to oneself despite distractions and dilemmas leads to happiness.\"\n\nWhat I am mentally referencing is that part in the reports where it talks about an argument being apples and oranges because the two sides aren't really talking about the same thing. That's, what, the main vs. impact story character report? So in this story it's like the MC is having a conversation with the town/ic. First the MC says, I'm here to look for a babydaddy. And the town say, Ooh ooh look here I have this garden where there are a bunch of men wanting to be a soulmate. And the MC thinks, ok that's not the same thing, but still it's a convenient array of men, and there's no reason a soulmate and a babydaddy couldn't be the same person. So she looks at the garden and is dubious because a rock doesn't tell her anything about the man who made it, such as whether he would sire pretty babies. And the IC's stone says Ooh ooh come meet me and be my soulmate. So the MC is like, well since you asked I'll come meet you but I don't want to put myself out there as a soulmate, that's not what I signed up for, so I'll use a disguise to cancel out my potential soulmate-ness. That way we can meet more neutrally and appropriately to considering you for a babydaddy. When she actually meets the IC it's the same apples and oranges conversation again - the IC is saying soulmates are wonderful, I am looking for mine, do you know her? and the MC is asking, well you are attractive enough for sex, do you want to be a babydaddy?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2481803}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320124953.858614, "message": "The man doesn't like children because they are annoying, which could probably be restated as disruptive, so that could be something like he wants a controlled environment and children are inherently uncontrolled, children complicate an otherwise pleasantly simple life, so avoiding children is logical when he lacks a feeling to contradict it. Either way, he specifically doesn't want children in his immediate vicinity or living with him. And this was something he decided a long time ago and never bothers to question, so I could also see an argument for consider/reconsider there. So, I dunno, not wanting children near him seems external but [...] the real problem is that he leads an unexamined life, that's internal.\n\nTown A has an inclination to be nosy, critical, and interfering. This is incompatible with the MC's strong desire to control information related to her pregnancy and child, and controlling the information is key to controlling the whole situation of her life as a pregnant single woman and her child's future life. If she went out in town A and got pregnant someone would immediately know who the father was or think they knew after guessing wrong, and once they knew they'd have an opinion and try to interfere and turn her pregnancy and possibly her child's future life into a bad situation/experience. That's what she iss controlling things to protect against. (Town A is like the MC, they are both suspicious and manipulative, while Town B is like the IC, they are both idealistic/romantic and relaxed in their confidence.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2481861}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320126352.8050671, "message": "When the woman finds the stone she does immediately want to look at the guy; what she wants is a one-sided meeting, her meeting him but him not meeting her. Thus the disguise preventing him from recognizing her as a soulmate because appearance is about 30% of what makes people potential soulmates. What she is afraid of is committing herself to a bad future because this guy is a total unknown (he might have a violent temper or something), she doesn't have the faith that soulmates are the best thing since sliced bread that everyone in this town including the IC does, her first priority is protecting herself and her future child. Thus the questionnaire, because she wants to know everything about this guy before she commits to meeting him as a potential soulmate.\n\n[In reference to the statement \"the man was not really giving the woman good advice all along, from the reports.]  The IC has various opinions different from the MC's. He thinks soulmates are the best thing ever [100% good], and two soulmates should unquestionably be together, as described above. He also thinks women are generally lovely and nice, and would not normally suspect a new woman he met of having bad personality traits. He thinks \"love is all we need\" [thus children are not needed, not part of a romantic ideal]. He exemplifies living a calm, content be-er lifestyle in romance town, and it's clear he would want the MC to settle down into that life next to him (I'm remembering that illustration of the meditating be-er in the dramatica comic book.) He has no secrets and exemplifies that kind of straightforwardness and confidence that nothing bad will happen and there's no reason he should try to manipulate anyone or anything because everything will turn out fine on its own. His thinking too is simple and if he knew all the MC's thoughts he would regard them as overly complicated and overly paranoid.  [But this difference is the same reason why each is charming and magnetically appealing to the other; like city mouse and country mouse they are opposites which attract.  Each is strong where the other is weak, thus they could be a powerful team.]", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2481944}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320129101.1455581, "message": "Sorry for that flood, I'm done now until someone asks me a question.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2482112}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320129055.6369951, "message": "Uh oh, found some I missed answering the first time!  MikeDerk wrote \"Back to this: \" But that aside she is attempting to check the least likely, most daydreamy option off her list first. She expects to have a pleasant boring half hour stroll through a relaxing garden like any other tourist, not find anything resembling a soulmate, then that evening go to a bar and start seriously cruising. Time of day is a side factor - it wouldn't work so well to try to go to a bar to pick someone up in the middle of the day.\"\n\nHere's what I find really interesting about how you think about story. I agree that the time of day plays a huge role, and that makes sense. But why would doing the \"least likely, most daydreamy option\" ever be something anyone pursues?\n\nThink about it -- we need to end a war. Would the President ever try the least likely thing?\n\nThe Protagonist *wants to accomplish their goal* and all of their actions should be about that and only that.\"\n\nTo answer this, Omilla is what's called a \"completist\".  Basically her goal is NOT to find the first option that works.  Her goal is to survey all the options, do an impact study, then pick the best.  This might be a function of her being intuitive/female mental sex.  That's about holistic balance, and how can you balance a complicated situation without fully understanding all the factors and possibilities first?  This is the same reason she is town between the baby she originally wanted and the soulmate she found out she could get.  She decides having both is the best possible option, she sneaks and delays and maneuvers carefully to try to get both, but eventually she reluctantly accepts that there is no acceptable way to have her cake and eat it too, she has to pick one, and the baby is the one she needs to pick to be true to herself.\n\nAnd finally I get to sam_potter's recent comment \"I have to say this is very frustrating. It seems to me Mike is trying to get you to pin down some solid answers in at least one throughline and it seems that you just keep dancing around it. You are a very good natured person so I know it is not evasive.\"  Thank you for thinking I am good natured.  This all frustrates me too.  It is my impression that I am answering the questions, so I don't understand how they are not answered already.  Perhaps the issue is that I see everything within a story concept as being related to everything else.  It is natural to me to try to explain something by describing how it connects to other things.  But, I can see how this can seem like skipping around from topic to topic or dancing around a question.\n\nI can try again with MikeDerk's two most recent questions?  First question was what is Varan's personal problem.  In the most simple way I can say it, Varan's problem is that he lives an unexamined life.  He is letting Omilla skip through his fingers from their first in-person meeting because he isn't suspicious/inquiring/investigative/thoughtful, whatever you want to call it.  There are all these clues around him that things aren't quite right, and he doesn't notice them or dismisses them.  He has too much faith/idealism or too little awareness/perception, I see these as two sides of the same coin.\n\nSecond question, what about Varan tempts Omilla not to have a baby.  The idea of a grand romance with a soulmate is flashier than the idea of being a mother.  Varan has this mental image of a romantic ideal life where it is just him and his soulmate having great sex and pampering each other and living happily ever after.  He exemplifies thoughtless elegant simplicity and she knows she could join him in this fairy-tale world where life would be prettier and easier than making hard choices and becoming a single mother.  But it's like a shiny wax apple compared to a lumpy but nutritious real apple.  Or like a long-term body-building plan vs. steroids.  Does that answer the question?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2482108}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320168472.3079131, "message": "Alright, things are clearer for me now. I think.\n\nLet me just see if I have this right: \nTo the Romantic town, a \"soulmate\" is a 100% great thing.\nTo Omilla, it seems like it could be a trap of sorts -- you are addicted to each other, but not necessarily good for each other. \n\nThen: Varan leads the unexamined life and looks forward to days of hedonism with his soulmate. Omilla, more cautious, skeptical and desirous of children has a longer-term plan that she has thought out. These two are not meant for each other, it seems, from the get-go.\n\nHowever, the more time they spend in the same town, the more Varan's elegant simplicity tempts her, and she considers not having a child and staying with Varan on his terms. However, the fact that he seems oblivious to life around him -- or dismisses things as unimportant -- is a cautionary tale, which keeps Omilla at bay until she ultimately decides that she needs to stick to her guns. Having slept with the guy, she skips town, and returns to whence she came.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2484864}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320172860.1046691, "message": "What do you see as the concerns?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485359}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320173113.6597371, "message": "I think that' more like the meaning of the story, not the story itself.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485393}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320172799.4740281, "message": "This is how I see it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485354}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320172772.3834851, "message": "This forces an OS of Mind and an IC of Manipulation.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485349}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320173297.54162, "message": "Once we've put in a Steadfast/Good ending, I think that's all Dramatica can do along those lines.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485419}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320172291.208564, "message": "Yeah, that's pretty much right.  For Varan it's not so much hedonism as running through a meadow in show motion surrounded by hearts and flowers and making love on the beach at sunset, but there is an element of hedonism in there, romance is kind of inherently hedonistic.  Meant for each other, well, it's common for the hero and heroine of a romance to have an \"opposites attract\" thing going on.  Varan has inner peace, which Omilla admires, Omilla is clever and decisive, which Varan admires.  So I'd say that \"from the get-go it's clear that a relationship between them would have to be all or nothing, because if they don't like each other deeply enough to make it work, and don't communicate (which Omilla fears and Varan doesn't know how to do properly cause he can't notice and analyze what needs to be communicated) their differences will drive them to fight instead.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485281}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320173096.5652101, "message": "I see mc concern of 'doing' getting pregnant is not the goal but being a mother is which will be an ongoing process.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485392}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320173619.7837059, "message": "Why does it baffle you. We can't move forward without you, since you know all the content and context.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485455}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320172506.934938, "message": "Okay, so moving on with a storyform...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485311}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320172839.6162829, "message": "As well, also, in addition to Mike...too", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485357}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320172688.0388031, "message": "I can see several ways to approach this, but this one come to mind first:\nSS: Situation. (Soulmates) MC: Activity (trying to get pregnant)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485334}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320173418.6298201, "message": "Back it up with content, though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485428}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320173594.019434, "message": "I'm kinda baffled by that througline arrangement but it's interesting, so I'll watch and see how it works out.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485448}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320175947.774312, "message": "What?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485695}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320176056.5164011, "message": "oh so you're saying the concept of soulmates is in both, ok", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485706}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320173249.4669099, "message": "Right but therein lies the story which Dramatica will frame, don't u think?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485408}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320173368.8357899, "message": "So OS concern of impulsive responses. Everyone has an opinion about that. Doing what is expected rather than what you want.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485426}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320175546.2184091, "message": "@MikeDerk u dont like the general on the hill analogy.  It is not literal of course but the stakes have to be high or what's the point?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485652}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320174170.5123789, "message": "@sunandshadow this is an observation and just my opinion, I think 1. When you learn to separate Overall Story and the players from an Objective view from the personal subjective throughlines it will be a huge breakthrough. 2. It seems to me u want your cake and to eat it as well with Dramatica.  Trust that they separated things for a reason .", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485512}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320174459.4037671, "message": "Omilla is a do-er who wants to have a baby. Why does she want a baby? Is it to get out of a situation?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485546}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320174951.955081, "message": "You're mistaking Dramatica Story Points for content. They aren't.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485595}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320174540.384376, "message": "Also think Psychology, perhaps, instead of manipulation for IC.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485557}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320174620.219363, "message": "From the general on the hill single lady is the protagonist in the battle to stay true to self.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485565}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320175119.079813, "message": "I think the most baffling part to me is the man as Manipulation.  I'm having a failure of imagination as to how that could work.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485614}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320175974.554065, "message": "Innermost Desires is the OS -- she wants a baby, the town wants people to find soulmates, etc.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485696}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320174792.4425781, "message": "To clarify: learn to separate the objective story roles from the subjective story characters.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485574}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320174911.4355371, "message": "The only time staying true to yourself would be the goal would be if you were infiltrating a cult, or something, where staying true to yourself was directly threatened.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485590}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320174993.712878, "message": "sorry I was outside cutting lemongrass, lemme catch up and I'll reply", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485600}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320176500.382823, "message": "Who said equally?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485751}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320175491.3144269, "message": "If the MC is Activity, does that mean the woman's wearing of the disguise is an example of Activity and a part of the MC throughline??", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485645}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320175823.085088, "message": "@sam_potter No, I like the general on the hill, but nothing that the woman is doing is she doing *simply to be true to herself*. She decides at the end that she's going to stay true to herself and turn down her soulmate, but it's not like she's under constant assault to change who she is.\n\nThe way you say that she's in a battle to stay true to herself mixes the story for the message.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485681}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320176594.6861041, "message": "The IC has an issue with not thinking things through. He could not think through babies. She could be seeking a baby. The town could be about fixed attitudes towards babies. They could have a baby together. \n\nI'm not saying this would be the greatest story, but Dramatica is about perspectives on things. You can have the same things, so long as they are explored differently.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485762}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320176125.900315, "message": "It's even in how Varan dreams of the future: sex in a field of flowers with my doting soulmate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485717}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320175690.2145331, "message": "@sunandshadow I would say activity of gathering information and I may be wrong in my thinking but he is the one being manipulated. Can it work that way?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485671}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320175896.8369901, "message": "Doesn't it make the moral of the story wrong if you align Innermost Desires with soulmates instead of a baby?  I could see being true to oneself as being true to one's innermost desires, but for her that's the desire to be a mother...?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485690}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320176186.94103, "message": "Oh definitely, I see the idea of soulmates as being centered in Varan.  It splashes over onto the two throughlines adjacent to him, OS and SS, but doesn't really extend as far as the MC", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485726}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320175711.86975, "message": "I think this will be a confusing answer, but I can't figure out how to do it more simply.\n\nWearing a disguise is part of both, and in distinct ways. She's trying to fend off the town's magic by hiding (keeping Internal Desires at bay) and trying to suss out a potential father (which is in line with her activity).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485673}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320176024.4554141, "message": "uh?  but you said \"SS: Situation. (Soulmates) MC: Activity (trying to get pregnant)\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485701}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320176030.2583239, "message": "The Situation is what I was lining up with Soulmates -- the two of them are in a Situation: they are soulmates.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485702}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320176081.709204, "message": "and the concept of the pregnancy is in both OS and MC", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485709}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320176097.4546511, "message": "The concept of soulmates is going to permeate the whole thing.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485714}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320176297.6094201, "message": "But soulmates and babies are going to be in all aspects of the story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485735}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320176334.821466, "message": "Nothing can be equally in all aspects of the story or the four throughlines wouldn't be different from each other", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2485739}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320179274.765003, "message": "Argument for staying true to self: town A could be pragmatic and look down on wanting to be a single parent. Maybe she has had offers of marriage but no suiters were suitable.  Town B is all about being true to self. Individuals have different opinions. Baby daddy thinks he is true to self but until he holds that baby in his arms he has no idea of the happiness in having a kid", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2486094}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320180940.4113369, "message": "This could be an interesting approach to the SS. Ironically, adopting Town B's philosophy has the woman leaving the man, and forces him to change to be with her.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2486282}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320183046.8827209, "message": "Since it seems to have gone quiet... where does the comedy come from in this story?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2486507}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320187004.5462589, "message": "Nah, actually I'd rather get back to the question about why you think this breakdown into domains and throughlines isn't right.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2486978}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320187903.2788961, "message": "Me too.  IC in Manipulation is questionable to her it would seem.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2487082}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320196542.6552789, "message": "Alright, looking at the Main and Impact Character window there are 8 options for MC and IC UA and CF. Picking any one of those determines everything else. So I'll type those 8 possibilities here and we'll see if any look good.\n\n---MC UA-----------MC CF-------------IC UA-------------IC CF\n1.Conditioning----State Of Being---Sense Of Self--Instinct\n2.Senses-----------Circumstances--Situation---------Interpretation\n3.Enlightenment--Knowledge-------Thought----------Wisdom\n4.Skill---------------Desire--------------Ability-------------Experience\n5.Attitude----------Rationalization---Obligation--------Approach\n6.Self Interest----Responsibility----Commitment----Morality\n7.Preconditions--Permission--------Deficiency-------Prerequisites\n8.Strategy---------Expediency-------Need--------------Analysis\nSo, 1, 4, and 7 look quite wrong, cross those off. 3 looks kinda backwards, so also no on that. 2, senses don't seem very relevant to the MC. 5, I'm not really sure how Obligation could be the IC's Unique Ability, but I'd have to ponder that a while to decide if it was right or wrong. The Issue possibilities for 5 look ok. With 8 I'm similarly not sure how Need could work as the IC UA, but additionally the Issue possibilities make it look like a very cerebral cold/dry story, not really what I'm going for. That leaves 6, I'm not sure Morality makes sense as the IC CF, but the Issue possibilities look ok. So do you guys like one of these? 5, 6, or something else?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2488281}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320199191.2642381, "message": "It's not that I dislike it, more that I am confused by it.  I was sorting it out by testing if it resulted in nonsense lower-level stuff.  It didn't.  It also made the MC be start instead of stop, which was something I was saying a while ago would be an improvement on the previous suggested throughline assignments.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2488678}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320198625.3750479, "message": "Wait. You don't even like the set up Sam and I came up with. \n\nLet's sort that out first.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2488604}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320199524.9002571, "message": "On the other hand, I just looked at the signposts in the plot progression window.  They turn out to be completely determined even though there are still 64 storyform possibilities left.  And I don't really like what the program suggests for them.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2488724}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320201228.3526471, "message": "@sam_potter whoops missed your question about the author's perspective on true soulmates.  (Also, has my post about the comedy in the story gone missing?  It's not showing up for me.)  Ok true soulmates.  I would define that as two people who make each other happy by completing each other.  Physically they desire each other, emotionally they enjoy spending time with each other, and they are so important to each other that if one were to die the other would probably become suicidal, or at least be devastated.  If that doesn't clear it up, tell me what other aspect I should comment on.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2488873}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320202003.2246921, "message": "I think you are jumping the gun. You don't like the progress report, yet you have no idea what would go in there since you haven't figured out why things are in their respective domains.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2488958}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320202020.030488, "message": "Let's just stick with Concerns and sort that out. I think it would benefit you.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2488959}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320202859.666121, "message": "I don't think you can say I have no idea what would go in the progress report.  If you say MC is activity of getting pregnant and I go along with that it's not difficult to look at the plot synopsis in that light and say OK, in the first quarter of the story the events related to an activity of getting pregnant are blah blah blah, in the second quarter they are... etc. These events look nothing like the Types assigned to that signpost of that throughline.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489052}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320203189.56357, "message": "Concerns are so locked down, if you pick one for any throughline it automatically pics the other three.  The concerns associated with possibilities 5 and 6 are just the ones we have been talking about from the beginning anyway - obtaining, innermost desires, future, and changing one's nature.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489081}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320203960.380538, "message": "You are right, I can't say that you have no idea what is going in each throughline. My apologies. However, you have been blending all of the throughlines, so I would be careful assuming that everything you think belongs in the MC throughline actually belongs there.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489174}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320207789.4443009, "message": "That too.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489485}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320207657.8093951, "message": "Fertility potions to guarantee conception also", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489466}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320208220.365483, "message": "Oh, so he's after that: he isn't now, but he wants to be that guy.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489533}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320207821.5846751, "message": "Because he's oblivious!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489490}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320208264.0015831, "message": "So, he is concerned with it. Just in a relaxed, let-the-universe-take-care-of-it kind of way.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489537}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320207759.2588899, "message": "Or changing his obliviousness?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489482}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320207858.8915329, "message": "being that guy in the field of flowers", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489497}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320207590.065881, "message": "@sunandshadow \nObtaining: we can see that the woman wants to get something (pregnant), although my wife has pointed out that after a weekend, a test wouldn't even trigger, so is she trying to have a one", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489462}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320207677.131283, "message": "Innermost Desires seems spot on.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489468}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320207735.2618949, "message": "Changing One's Nature... \nI don't think this is quite as simple as \"accepts children\" but I think \"giving up his idealistic future\" might do.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489479}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320207639.3739359, "message": "Fantasy worlds are convenient like that, they can have instant pregnancy tests if the plot calls for it. ;)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489464}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320207653.055187, "message": "Awesome.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489465}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320207693.9653659, "message": "Future seems good (are they going to be together or not?)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489473}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320207807.342586, "message": "The odd thing is, for the majority of the story the IC isn't actually concerned about his own nature", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489487}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320207808.0654819, "message": "by the way, your post about the comedy has disappeared.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489488}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320207844.9379849, "message": "He's concerned with playing a role?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489493}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320207828.7870941, "message": "Just kidding. What is he concerned with?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489491}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320208894.824635, "message": "Wait, I misread something. \nHow is being that guy in the flowers \"playing a role\"?\nIsn't finding your permanent soulmate a change of nature (from single, lonely, web-surfer to frolic in the flowers guy?)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489583}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320210656.7852471, "message": "But, to go back to an earlier problem I was having, I don't see him as concerned with much at all.\n\nThere is a solution, though. Omilla could be concerned with it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489795}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320210507.6151359, "message": "I have a feeling, though, that what Mare is saying is that -- despite his change at the end -- he's not actually concerned with that over the course of the whole story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489778}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320210423.417856, "message": "I see his change of nature as being an internal change of I want an ideal life with a soul-mate frolicking in the flowers(no kids allowed) to a guy who realizes that a child (his child) can bring him much joy when shared with a soul-mate.  I know that is not the \"compromise you described in your synopsis but how romantic is a compromise?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489764}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320210456.168776, "message": "It's romantic if you get the girl!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489770}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320210543.87642, "message": "Ah, I see.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489786}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320211121.677165, "message": "sunandshadow wrote, \" true soulmates. I would define that as two people who make each other happy by completing each other. Physically they desire each other, emotionally they enjoy spending time with each other, and they are so important to each other that if one were to die the other would probably become suicidal, or at least be devastated.\"  I am projecting here, but it seems to me if magic and soul-mates is real wouldn't it be a complete match (down to the soul)?  I can see and even like the idea that they have blind spots, as we all do, to our natures and true desires.  \"I didn't know I liked kids.  Who'da thunk!\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489839}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320211268.1911969, "message": "@MikeDerk Do you think or know if it is OK for a character in Manipulation/psychology to be the one being manipulated?  What is your take on IC in manipulation/psychology in this story?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489858}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320211359.5671101, "message": "@sam_potter I agree with you there, that we can be surprised by our own nature. But it's tricky to pull off a reversal like that without seeming cheap. IMHO.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489874}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320211596.034162, "message": "My take on the IC in this story?\n\nOkay, the thing is that there is a spectrum that the IC can inhabit, because at the end of the day the IC is the \"you\" perspective. The IC is on the receiving end of being observed. So, someone can see how they react to one's own thinking, the MC trying to change their psychology. They can be changing their own thinking. They can be not changing their thinking, and the MC is reacting to that... So, yes, they can be being manipulated.\n\nAs for this story, I see his relaxed go-with-the-flow outlook on life that allow him to see the benefit to all things (since they lead to his eventual great soulmate meeting him) influencing Omilla since it clashes with her controlled outlook on life -- which must stress her out!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2489903}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320253571.3470571, "message": "Bleh looks like this ate my post about Omilla's reaction to Varan's relaxed outlook too.  *kicks convore*", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2492593}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320255495.650892, "message": "Ok, I tried finishing off the story form because the reports are the true test of whether we are getting close to the right storyform, and the reports don't show up unless you have a complete storyform.  So here's the storyform I used:\nSteadfast, Start, Do-er, Intuitive, Decision, Optionlock, Success, Good, OS Fixed Attitude, Innermost Desires, Denial, Hinder.  That should determine the rest for you if you plug it into the program.  The reports look pretty good, meaning I can come up with a halfway plausible interpretation of how each term might be relevant to the story in the position it shows up in.  And the plot progression looks ok too, turns out I had an error in that *blush*.  Do you guys want to discuss whether this is THE storyform, or discuss concerns more or something?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2492734}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320257836.6548159, "message": "I'd be curious to know why you chose those things. I'm especially curious why \"morality\" is the MC Issue.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2492965}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320261246.2130139, "message": "Well, I chose the MC UA of Self Interest first.  Her Self Interest Unique Ability is her strong focus on what she wants, which is connected to the concern of obtaining a child.  Her Critical Flaw of Openness is her persistent consideration of the idea that maybe she can have a soulmate too.  Morality is what she angsts about in terms of protecting everyone, until she realizes she is being too self-sacrificing.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2493262}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320261475.6735859, "message": "The IC's UA is Commitment because he's ready from the get-go to commit himself to a soulmate without any hesitation or doubt.  His Issue of Responsibility refers to the fact that he isn't suspicious or analytical or observant enough, thus he can't properly be responsible, he doesn't have the information or mindset to make informed decisions with prompt timing.  His Critical Flaw of Closure probably refers to the fact that he thinks he's already done all he needs to get a soulmate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2493281}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320263155.081028, "message": "That's not what a Unique Ability is. Nor is that what a CF is.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2493460}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320265720.732136, "message": "Please explain that comment.  As far as I'm aware a character's Unique Ability is what drives them forward within their throughline, and it directly corresponds to Catalyst in the other two throughlines.  Unique Ability is also what makes the character uniquely suited to solving their problem.  Critical Flaw is what hobbles the character within their throughline, corresponding to Inhibitor in the other two throughlines.  Critical Flaw is also what makes the character come perilously close to failing to solve their problem.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2493782}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320267962.032501, "message": "In addition to all that the Unique Ability of the MC affects the Overall goal, while the Unique Ability of the IC impacts the MC.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494034}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320272038.9030421, "message": "The definitions are your friend.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494406}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320270330.3894961, "message": "Your storyform has her motivated by Disbelief. What does she disbelieve?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494232}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320269682.1865621, "message": "The thing that drives them forward through their throughline would be the Problem in the case of Omilla, since she's steadfast. The Unique Ability is what allows them to solve their problem. Since she seems to be able to get pregnant without having to be Self-Interested, I don't think that's the thing that allows her to get pregnant.\n\nOpenness would have to interfere with getting pregnant for it to be the CF.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494175}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320271399.198324, "message": "To be honest, my main problem is with the OS Issue of Denial.\n\nThe way you describe Disbelief, though, clashes with the story. If she disbelieves Varan would make her happy, why does that strong motivating force allow her to even get tempted to stay in this town with him and not have a baby?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494326}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320271486.0846601, "message": "@sam_potter, what do you think of her storyform?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494331}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320270906.737967, "message": "I think that if she weren't strongly Self-Interested she would let herself be convinced not to get pregnant.  And Openness to possibly having a soulmate blocks her from letting anyone other than Varan get her pregnant even though she has ample opportunity.  The Disbelief is more questionable, but I think it could be Disbelief that a soulmate in general or Varan in particular would make her happy.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494286}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320270958.2368121, "message": "Feel free to suggest alternate possibilities and make a case for them though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494290}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320272011.591826, "message": "*looks up disbelief*  Oh, hmm, that's defined as strong non belief, not lack of faith or doubt which might have been more appropriate.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494403}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320273046.460681, "message": "@sunandshadow This: \"Denial is just the combination of the CFs of Openness and Closure, isn't it?\" probably has some deep insight in it, but I'm not enlightened enough to see it today.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494504}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320273710.040283, "message": "The way I picked the story form was putting the MC Issue Options in one at a time, looking at the whole batch of terms that get autochosen as a result, and picking the set that looked least wrong.  Is that kind of decision really explainable?  I did say what I thought each of the terms were in terms of the story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494573}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320272138.341655, "message": "Denial is just the combination of the CFs of Openness and Closure, isn't it?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494415}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320273030.412658, "message": "The immediate alternative to Denial in choosing the storyform was Dream, if you like that better we could look at that one.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494503}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320273221.1965711, "message": "That isn't sufficient. You are telling a story, about characters and actions and decisions and problems and all that. Supporting your storyform by pointing to another part of your storyform means nothing.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494523}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320272829.034148, "message": "Hah, I guess the definitions are a friend, but they're the kind of friend who is a total nag an pedant, lol.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494478}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320273067.6336851, "message": "I don't care what we look at, but the problem is that you provide no reason for making your decisions.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494505}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320273114.0648971, "message": "It still requires disbelief and faith to be somewhere in the MC symptom/response/problem/solution.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494509}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320274028.2357659, "message": "It's like, if I were looking to recreate my life, and someone said, \"you can have help and money\" and I thought -- hey! Great! I'm rich and I have servants. And then I find out I have to help other people and get paid no money.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494621}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320273502.892904, "message": "Openness, Closure, Preconception, and Denial aren't a regular quad but they are, I guess you could call it a dynamic pair of dynamic pairs?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494548}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320273954.7299671, "message": "If I picked one term at a time to plug into all the available slots the result would structurally be total nonsense, not a usable storyform.  I've actually done this, so I know that for sure, lol.  I can use that kind of thing for my personal reference but it's a big mess compared to how Dramatica's supposed to work.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494608}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320273962.1404231, "message": "What I find interesting and frustrating about your process is that you really let your intuition guide you. You test out every model -- I think that's really cool. \n\nBut, then you don't examine the results with any rigor. You don't make sure you understand the terms or the story points. You just say, \"That seems right.\"\n\nI'm sure the way you do it can generate interesting thoughts to put into your story. But since you aren't careful about what you end up, I don't see how the storyform can guide you.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494610}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320274674.357111, "message": "I usually storyform with a dramatica dictionary open at my side.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494699}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320274007.290561, "message": "I meant to say, picked one term at a time from the whole list based on which had a definition I thought best matched each slot.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494618}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320274072.3510499, "message": "Why don't you just ask yourself, \"How does an Issue of _____ look in this part of the story?\" and see if you have context that fits?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494631}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320274819.7915809, "message": "I've consulted it maybe 10 times since we started this walkthrough thing.  So I'm not totally ignoring it, but I only go there when I'm actively confused by a term.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494711}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320274879.3147581, "message": "Honestly I'd probably be happier if Dramatica was converted into a deck of tarot-like cards and a book of madlibs, allowing the whole thing to be used in a more freeform manner, lol.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494721}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320274467.613111, "message": "I've tried in the past to do it with rigor, using a spreadsheet and also the dictionary.  But that never turned out well.  There were 1. too many possible storyforms to compare, 2. Missing information about why the theory is the way it is, and 3. Even when trying to look at a whole array of possible storyforms not one struck me as being really right.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494668}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320274626.8773429, "message": "My memory is also intuitive and pattern-based, so I always have difficulty remembering details of definitions, especially when the words are also real words with normal English definition.  At best I remember what seemed like the \"spirit\" of the definition last time I read it, or a specific phrase of the definition that struck me as evocative.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494690}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320278418.72544, "message": "Yeah, you seem to prefer this open stew of terms. I don't get why.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495138}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320275837.3027639, "message": "I kind of wonder what would happen if we tried a method like: 1. I take a list of all the Dramatica terms and propose one or more ways which they could apply to the current story.  2. You mark all the ones you think are wrong and say why.  3. I try again with those. 4. Until we have a full set of terms describing the story, even if they aren't in a proper storyform.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2494835}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320277986.2077351, "message": "Ah, that's ok then, it was just an idle speculation.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495082}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320278570.600081, "message": "Well, when I just look at the terms they seem so loaded with potential and hidden insights.  But trying to put that into a storyform seems to reduce that to something boring and never really right.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495159}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320278680.3490231, "message": "No that's fine, I often have that kind of reaction to something in a proposed storyform.  I certainly don't think it's the best possible term to be there.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495174}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320278840.12339, "message": "With the dynamics we already agreed on and the OS and MC throughlines and concerns we talked about, there are only 4 choices for OS Issue: Denial, Dream, Hope, and Closure.  I kind of think Hope is the best of those, though they all seem vaguely relevant.  What do you think of those four possibilities?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495203}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320277776.1082311, "message": "I'm not that interested in that. It could be worthwhile, but I think the traditional way works. I also just don't have that much more time to dedicate to this.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495057}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320278592.003094, "message": "The thing is, \"Denial\" in the OS Issue seems to be to entirely wrong. I don't understand how it got there, why you left it there, or why you'd trust any system that put it there. \n\nSorry to be so blunt.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495160}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320279683.5440199, "message": "Why do you think HOPE is the best? (And of course they all seem relevant, because it's getting honed!)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495334}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320279700.471875, "message": "I can tell you what I think, but it's your story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495338}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290308.1894491, "message": "I proposed \"Pursuit\" as Omilla's Drive.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496681}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320280659.1869121, "message": "Well I know what I think, lol, the point of a discussion is to find out what others think.  Hope is the one about reasonable expectations, and both getting a baby and getting a soulmate are pretty reasonable expectations, as evidenced by the fact that in the end they both happen without a huge effort or supernatural intervention or anything like that.  Dream would be the counterpoint, and both Omilla and Varan are involved in pondering whether what they want and what the other wants is a reasonable or unreasonable desire.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495470}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320281970.3606589, "message": "That's true.  Although she considers it to be possible from the point when the soulstone calls to her up to the point in the interview when Varan says he doesn't want kids.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495579}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320282456.0761211, "message": "that is where a little crack in her shell of cinicism  opens up but if hse were really open to it she wouldn't be disguising herself.   @sunandshadow talk about apples and oranges.  When Mike said (sic) you avoid the rigor) you answered back with Dramatica spreadsheets and reports. Sometimes it seems to me you are hiding behind dramatica's \"stuff\"  I don't see you making the effective choices to make this story work.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495619}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320281883.897223, "message": "It seems to me that the soul-mate possibility (before the story starts) has moved from the realm of HOPE to the realm of DREAM for Omilla.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495569}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285638.362905, "message": "I know but I wanted some re-assurance.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496081}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320283406.9762771, "message": "@sunandshadow haha I seem to really get into to this.  This is the thing I am checking all day while I work to try to keep up.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495726}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320282811.790782, "message": "If I knew what constituted an effective choice, wouldn't I be done already?  Dramatica's stuff exists to be used sort of like a crutch anyway.  But I don't have any serious objection To looking at Dream as the possible OS issue if you prefer it.  Dream goes with Choice in the SS throughline, while Hope goes with Delay; Delay seems a bit more what they are both doing than Choice to me, but maybe you have a reason why Choice is equally good or better.  Really I'm open to suggestions here; I don't feel the need to be the one making the decisions if I'm not making good ones, as long as the conversation keeps making progress instead of dying out.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495660}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320283285.9076099, "message": "I know, I went back to find some specific examples and now cannot.  Something about she could have any number of baby daddies but this one guy would be a better choice.  It just seemed so weak to me.  It's almost like this having a baby is something she has to check off her list and move on to the next point.  WHY DOES SHE WANT TO HAVE A BABY?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495711}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320284453.5383999, "message": "Do you like Omilla?  Does she want to be pregnant?  Does she want to obtain a baby?  or does she want to be a mother?  Or does she want to have a family(in whatever form that takes)?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495884}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285172.9934239, "message": "Achieving is another form of Obtaining", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495989}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320283737.2513649, "message": "IMHO if she wants to be a mother she would have a concern of DOING if she just wants to get pregnant then THAT would be OBTAINING/ ACHIEVING.  My ex-wife liked being pregnant but Omilla never has.  I know this isn't relevant but I like Omilla less and less.  I want a reason to care why she wants to have a baby.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495769}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320283741.330375, "message": "Why does she want to have a baby.  I think it's often difficult to say what motivates a desire that arises from deep inside someone like that.  I don't think it would be useful to get into evolutionary biology or the effect of hormones on psychology or anything like that since we're still trying to Dramatica here.  She wants to become a mother in somewhat the same way Varan wants to become \"that guy with the soulmate in the field of flowers\".  But Omilla's perfectly aware being a single mother will be a lot of work.  She thinks it will be a positive work, an act that is both good for her inner self and contributing something positive to the world.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495770}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320283890.1122999, "message": "Maybe Omilla wants to have a baby the same way writers want to create a novel or a movie, lol.  And I'm glad if you are enjoying the conversation, I apologize if I'm making it hard to keep up.  It's kind of too bad if you aren't finding Omilla likeable, but it doesn't surprise me too much, male audience members often dislike the female main characters of romantic comedies and other fiction aimed at a female audience.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495792}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285666.113101, "message": "Ok *pats you* haha", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496091}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320284323.1734321, "message": "(Understand I am not an expert but this is my take.  if the secretary of state should uncover any misrepresentation of Dramatica you may disavow any knowledge of my actions) \"evolutionary biology or the effect of hormones on psychology or anything like that\"\nThis would be state of Achieving\n\" She wants to become a mother in somewhat the same way Varan wants to become \"that guy with the soulmate in the field of flowers\".\"n state of Achieving\n \"But Omilla's perfectly aware being a single mother will be a lot of work. She thinks it will be a positive work, an act that is both good for her inner self and contributing something positive to the world.\"  this would be process of Doing  ", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495863}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320284990.7450969, "message": "What is Achieving?  That's not one of the older set of Dramatica terms, is it?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495962}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285258.7646439, "message": "Is that an \"aha\" for you too?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496000}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320284854.714694, "message": "I definitely like Omilla.  I pretty much always like all my characters unless I make a character specifically to be a villain.  What does she want, ummm.  Can I say she wants to _create_ a child?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495940}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285419.739388, "message": "So that part's a new insight for me. :)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496032}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285869.748857, "message": "Ah, yes, it's important not to end the different throughlines too far apart, makes the ending pacing bad.  In romance you normally talk about two climaxes, plot and relationship.  They're supposed to not be more than 50 pages apart in a 400-600 page novel.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496131}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285886.4003179, "message": "We were talking about innermost desires and soulmates", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496135}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285381.5250909, "message": "I was thinking along the lines of, if creating a child is like making some kind of art, selecting the best father for the child is as important to her as using the right materials is to a visual artist.  And I've seen visual artists spend hundreds of dollars they didn't have to get materials they craved to work with.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496024}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285472.0667119, "message": "but are we agreed that MC goal is to have a baby?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496045}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285957.141633, "message": "We got hung up on changing one's nature though", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496142}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285157.0132971, "message": "I have come to terms with \"She wants to have a baby.\"  (OBTAIN/ACHIEVE) If this story were to go beyond where it does I would argue for \"she wants to be a mother or be a family\" but that is beyond this storytelling. So her goal is to have a baby not to get pregnant because then she could just get laid and poof she knows it instantly and her story is over.  The overall story...wait a tic!  The main character story could be over then but the Protagonist story is not over and neither is the Relationship Story or the Impact Characters story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2495986}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285547.7896211, "message": "Ok, good idea. *makes a note*.  Yeah, assuming have a baby and create a baby are the same concept.  I thought were were agreed that her concern was obtaining the baby anyway.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496057}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285764.1220319, "message": "the separation of the throughline", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496111}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285918.758724, "message": "Also Future has to do with both soulmates and babies.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496137}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320286324.947273, "message": "I like that. \" Innermost desires deals with the sum total of experience.\" and \"These feelings are so basic that a character is often not aware of what they truly are. When Innermost Desires is involved, a character is moved right to the fiber of his personality.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496193}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320286439.1501729, "message": "Who or what would be the Antagonist to this goal and concern?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496218}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320286633.5939431, "message": "Why would having antagonistic elements outside the two major characters be necessary?  But I do think town A is a bit antagonistic, at least in Omilla's imagination.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496261}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285443.462997, "message": "I like that keep that as some good MC dialogue.  That shows some passion from our Omilla", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496038}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320286818.05849, "message": "Hmm I particularly wanted this story to have a minimal cast of characters and be narrowly focused on the two main characters.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496297}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287695.29285, "message": "Okay, I have a proposal for MC Issue", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496415}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287411.485348, "message": "Well he definitely has to give up a part of himself in the end.  He is a leap of faith character", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496378}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285649.406533, "message": "Oh, there's an a-ha moment from me; it's like the difference between the person who writes to be writing and the person who writes to have written.  Omilla is more the latter.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496085}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287089.9075921, "message": "A lot of introspection for Omilla.  Two of the most important scenes are her in her hotel room thinking.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496343}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287092.3278911, "message": "think about it.  I think those work for them don't you.  so far.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496344}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287181.9406941, "message": "One of my initial hypotheses when starting to work with dramatica is that theoretically every character should have half of every dynamic pair of elements.  Most of these aren't show though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496359}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285722.9080629, "message": "My \"aha\" was about the MC throughline ending but the Protagonist (et.al.) stories had a little ways yet to go.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496105}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320285773.6284461, "message": "Now did you guys illustrate the other 3 concerns?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496115}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320286166.3034129, "message": "Innermost Desires describes the essential feelings that form the foundation of character.  These feelings are so basic that a character is often not aware of what they truly are.  When Innermost Desires is involved, a character is moved right to the fiber of his personality.  Contrast with Impulsive Responses, Innermost Desires deals with the sum total of a character's experiences that determine what attracts and repels him, where Impulsive Responses describes the innate responses which are not dependent on experience.  ", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496172}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287472.682883, "message": "What do you think baby daddy's role is in the OS.  I was leaning toward Contagonist.  He is probably more complex than that but for the simplicity of this exercise...?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496389}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320286161.5156901, "message": "Can you illustrate the why innermost desires for OS? I think Mike's idea (and he is more experienced than I in the ways of the Dramatica Jedi) is different than mine.  I think Innermost Desires can include more than just soul-mates.  I guess i still think it could include staying true to yourself and having the baby and frolicking in the flowers. What do you think?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496171}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320286367.5643721, "message": "oops.  I do think Innermost Desires can include being true to oneself, I think the Innermost Desires basically is the self one is being true to.  This can include who one thinks one is, who one wants to be, how one wants to think and act.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496203}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320286456.051857, "message": "The soulstone is pretty much a physical embodiment of innermost desires.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496222}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320286480.129106, "message": "Yeah I think it would.  Uh, antagonist... I'm not sure there is one.  I can look and see who has the majority of the typical antagonist elements if you like.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496230}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320286550.7452819, "message": "Town A? has some anti innermost desires elements to it.  I think the story won't be interesting if there are not some antagonstic elements in Town B somewhere.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496240}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287011.032203, "message": "Um, the synopsis I pasted at the beginning and you repasted the other day is the whole story.  There isn't going to be much added, besides detail.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496326}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287680.4135611, "message": "by the way, I am not buying into your theory on elemental displacement <g>", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496412}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320288246.196075, "message": "I think I'm good with the concerns now, and Self Interest seems clear.  What do you think about IC UA Obligation?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496490}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320286772.3898649, "message": "Well, you gave all the elements to just Omilla and Vana (which I think you should undo)  there are many potential characters with many possibilities.  By giving them all to V and Om you have way to many possibilities for them and they become (i don't know) ambiguous/not specific and therefore not interesting.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496289}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320286879.664386, "message": "When you said you gave all the elements to just those two I lost a lot of interest in the story.  Especially when V is hardly in the story.  Is Omilla going to be trapped in a crevass with her legs pinned together with a boulder?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496309}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320289019.9848299, "message": "What do you think of Omilla's Drive of Pursuit?  --  the source of MAIN CHARACTER's drive -- is \"Pursuit\": the drive to seek after.\nThis seems like avery clear choice to me but how does the holistic thinker like it <g>", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496582}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320289765.3564889, "message": "Varan's problem is logic.  He logic thinking about kids is his biggest problem.  \"Logic is the mental process of choosing the most efficient course or explanation based on reason.  The Logic characteristic exemplifies the theory behind \"Occam's Razor\": that the simplest explanation is the correct explanation.  Therefore, the Logic characteristic is very efficient, but has no understanding or tolerance that people do not live by reason alone.  As a result, the character with the Logic characteristic often ignores how other's \"unreasonable\" feelings may cause a very real backlash to his approach.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496650}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287257.481708, "message": "With the build characters screen, you assign an element to the character who shows it the most clearly in a story, but that doesn't mean others characters don", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496364}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287414.1599059, "message": "I think it's clear that Varan does change his nature (and it's his throughline that's the concern for).  My question was, how is changing his nature actually his concern or goal?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496379}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320286930.3548629, "message": "The archetypal protagonist elements turned out to be evenly divided between the two, BTW.  Omilla has the proaction and pursuit ones, Varan has the certainty and proven ones.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496316}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287053.1658959, "message": "You don't have to have a lot.  Were you just going to have a lot of exposition.?  I am definitly not that good to create all the elements in two characters effectively.  127 hours did it though.  The rock, his physical self, his mind.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496335}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287294.1800261, "message": "Changing ones Nature.hmm  \"Changing One's Nature means achieving an identity with something.  This is different from \"Playing a Role\" which merely requires posing as something.  To Changing One's Nature, one must do more than just pretend to be by mimicking all the traits of what one wants to become.  Rather, one must also lose all those parts of oneself that are inconsistent with what one wants to become.  \"Giving up\" a part of oneself is always the hardest part of becoming and the reason so many characters spend a lot of time \"Playing a Role\" without ever Changing One's Nature.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496369}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287767.4149539, "message": "I am arguing for \"Self Interest\"  tada!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496425}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287803.0673759, "message": "Issue:  MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist)'s personal thematic focus, topic, or value standard -- is \"Self Interest\": doing or being based on what is best for oneself", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496430}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287218.127768, "message": "Yep conflicting goals of what their futures should be like.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496361}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287431.8012431, "message": "true", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496385}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287730.1493919, "message": "heh, well you are welcome to disagree.  I'm basing that on the similarity between the character elements and the myers/briggs personality matrix.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496422}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287596.0708449, "message": "Yeah temptation and hinder, that sounds like what Varan is to Omilla in the OS.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496403}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287681.2299671, "message": "That's true, I just would have thought that since he already thinks he is doing/has done all the right things to get his soulmate that he'd be more concerned with playing a role or developing a plan.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496414}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320288156.0876961, "message": "MC UA Attitude.  MC CF Choice.  IC Issue Commitment.  IC UA Obligation.  IC CF Dream.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496482}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320288562.3831699, "message": "I'm sorry.  you were replying and i wasn't seeing it.  I guess I have to frequently hit the refresh button (F5)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496530}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287574.904304, "message": "He may not know his concern is changing ones nature but we are working form an omniscient perspective with Dramatica.  Right?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496402}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320288074.5472939, "message": "IC concern: Changing ones nature.  Playing a role is his benchmark. From our Omniscient POV we know that his true concern (which solves his inequity) is to change his nature.  I cannot believe that they could live happily ever after if he had to play the role of being a father instead of really liking it.  am I too much of a romantic", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496467}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320288126.1356511, "message": "MC issue: doesn't that sound like her \"best for oneself\"?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496476}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320287871.1639619, "message": "Ahahaha.  Ok.  Lets look at what that entails then.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496441}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320288195.00245, "message": "Do I need to illustrate more than you have her issues with self interest?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496486}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320288433.1893599, "message": "That was a helpful description of Changing One's Nature as IC Concern BTW. :)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496507}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320288842.023829, "message": "Wow. That sounds like Varan.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496562}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320288709.317903, "message": "Obligation is a mental trick we play when we accept a poor situation now in the hopes it will lead to a better one later.  If we do not feel Obligated, we know we are really in control of the situation since we can leave at any time.  However, we would then lose any chance of a reward at the end, and even risk consequences that might befall us as a result of leaving.  But by focusing on the hope of a reward and protection from consequences, our current suffering can be tolerated and we feel we have no choice but to stick it out.  The problem is, that as long as we continue to feel we have no choice, the suffering can increase way beyond any realistic hope of recouping, and yet we \"must\" stay.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496545}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320289367.96381, "message": "Her symptom would be Uncontrolled and her response would be Control.  I see her (with your illustrations) using Control all the time.  Wearing the costume is a way to control the situation.  She is going to control how and when she gets pregnant.  I read somewhere that steadfast characters can focus a lot on their Response element.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496610}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290814.563556, "message": "Could he have the element of logic.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496718}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290910.676856, "message": "I am really liking this but how does it feel to you?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496734}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290974.447392, "message": "Pretty good.  The M/I (SS) elements are nice too: Issue delay, Catalyst Preconception, Inhibitor Morality.  I can see how that would work.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496738}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290207.258466, "message": "I think maybe you have the problem and solution switched with the symptom and response...?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496671}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290474.9516511, "message": "Logic is confusing because Varan is an emotional linear thinker, while Omilla is a rational holistic thinker.  Which of those is logic?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496689}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290767.0833409, "message": "He is the Male mental sex now.  Don't forget.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496714}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290559.2073021, "message": "This is probably one of those cases where any element can also be the lack of that element?  Varan's problem is his feeling of aversion to kids, to which he has not applied logic?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496700}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320289581.9813731, "message": "Varan may be a combination of Contagonist and Emotion in the OS.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496635}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290020.779808, "message": "Wait did you make a choice among the symptoms, responses, problems, and solutions to get pursuit and control?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496662}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290060.711031, "message": "Varan has all but one of the sidekick elements BTW.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496664}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290234.421526, "message": "Symptom and response should be happening in the earlier part of the story, while problem and solution are around the climax.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496672}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290265.249244, "message": "Oh, nvm *facepalm*", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496676}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320291778.418179, "message": "Baby daddy's logic causes problems in the OS in the quest for innermost desires.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496801}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290384.5540869, "message": "And Drive is Problem, ok, good.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496685}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290683.27988, "message": "Chris is always saying, \" a person can be holistic and be logical.\" I think it is safe to say he doesn't really like 100% Logic as a way to describe problem solving style.  he prefers linear.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496711}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290850.105273, "message": "She is the DO-er intuitive and he is the BE-er linear thinker.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496726}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320291216.1284821, "message": "Do you have a thought on how Logic works as OS Problem?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496757}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320291568.585191, "message": "This is a good case to use OS roles.  Do not use any subjective names:\nLogic is a problem when, as the Protagonist, her rational sense of how things are going leads her down wrong paths.  (I am scratching here I will work on it)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496784}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290758.429461, "message": "Yeah, looking at the definition some more I think that fits Varan.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496713}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320290880.43817, "message": "Yep.  Logic as defined in the dram dictionary can be emotional logic, in which case he can have it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496730}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320291654.6203561, "message": "Logic causes problems in Town A because you should do what is logical.  Don't go to town B .  Be practical.  marry this nice warlock and have kids.  Make your mother happy.  He is the logical choice.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496792}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320292257.398289, "message": "yeah the vore part of the name must be because it eats posts", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496835}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320292230.483865, "message": "I think my post didn't go through.  I was commenting on the fact that a Fixed Attitude is often based on a piece of logic that has \"solidified\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496832}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320292306.1051891, "message": "Could Varan's Logic be \"I already did/am doing what is necessary to get a soulmate\"?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496838}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320292313.5189619, "message": "in the OS specifically I mean", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496839}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320292249.598803, "message": "I like that", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496834}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320293880.644578, "message": "Mike may have some different ideas but do we want to take this all the way through illustrating all of the story points?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2496986}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320294040.619282, "message": "Did you see my posts about IC throughline problem of logic and OS problem of Logic?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2497014}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320294098.783149, "message": "I can't do much more tonight anyway, I have to go to bed early because I have an early appointment tomorrow, and before that I have to deal with the bus system to get there. XP", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2497021}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320294271.099072, "message": "Anyway, I was thinking it will take some skill to keep those separate and then skill to blend them back together when writing.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2497039}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320295187.1983111, "message": "good work.  We'll see what tomorrow will bring.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2497113}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320295229.7594609, "message": "Do you like the 4 throughlines report? anybody?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2497116}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320301434.9731469, "message": "I breezed through this kinda quickly, so these comments might be wonky.\n\nI don't recall seeing anything dealing with problems, and problems are at the heart of any story. \n\nSo, for their soulmatey nature: is the problem that Omilla wants choice but isn't given any? Is the lack of instant magic between the two confusing because they both had preconceptions of what meeting the soulmate would be like? Is the problem that Omilla keeps delaying things, and the magnetism heats up dangerously? Is there a rebellion against the lack of openness? Does Varan scare Omilla away because he is so open to whatever comes?\n\nOmilla wants a baby, and nothing seems to be getting in her way. Her approach waylays her for a bit, she has a negative attitude towards the town, she's too concerned with what works for her, she has trouble opening up to having to tend to a baby... what is it that gets in her way?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2497527}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320345465.607573, "message": "Yes, I would like to cover that level better. We didn't talk about the SS story and other things should be put to task with more rigor.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2500263}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320347250.7860501, "message": "I just think without that stuff, there is no story. Stories are about struggle -- even minor struggle -- and it just hasn't really been discussed.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2500415}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320352214.5766981, "message": "Agreed", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2500888}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320352282.1554661, "message": "Are u good with the two levels above that?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2500901}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320355709.736428, "message": "The struggle I'm most interested in is Omilla's internal struggle, but that might very well contain elements from more than one throughline, particularly the SS throughline.  Because it is a very introspective story, I think it's likely that in some cases Omilla's mental models of others, such as interfering neighbors and the assumptions she makes about Varan before she knows him well, may be helping fill the roles of antagonist &etc.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2501290}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320356872.6270621, "message": "So ok, describing Omilla's internal struggle.  The plot really begins when she makes the decision to go to romance town and get pregnant there.  If we wanted to or needed more page count to fill out a script we could begin a little before that and show the circumstances that crystallized that decision for her.  That could involve being rejected romantically by a man of Omilla's town, or longingly watching another woman with an adorable baby, or both, or presenting the story of either of these at second-hand in a complaint session with a sister or friend.  The conflict there would be making the initial decision, either in discussion with the friend or inside Omilla's head.  If we wanted more direct conflict we could include an actual interfering relative who would directly tell Omilla or another woman that she should would be being irresponsible and immoral if she allowed herself to get pregnant while single, or that she made a huge mistake by becoming pregnant.\n\nOR instead of all that we could accomplish the same thing by starting the story with Omilla on the train to romance town showing a montage of Omilla's memories of these topics - charming babies, lack of success at romance, and remembered admonitions and insults against women getting pregnant.  Optionally we could interleave that with Varan's memories of being a child hearing an adult pair of soulmates saying how much they adored each other, and a father-figure teaching Varan how to create the soulstone to attract his soulmate, and young man Varan actually making the soul stone and placing it carefully in the garden, and walking through the women's side of the soulstone garden and being disappointed when none of the stones call to him.  Not a lot of conflict in Varan's half though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2501404}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320357995.7888429, "message": "With or without that introductory material, the main action of the story starts when Omilla gets off the train in romance town.  Her body language or internal monologue should communicate a sense that she is being furtive, trying not to attract attention.  That implies conflict, because whose attention is she afraid of attracting and why?  She should be clearly looking at the town, taking information and starting to come up with a plan, while meanwhile somewhat fakely acting like a tourist.  It would be nice to contrast her with some actual tourists in a group with a guide; perhaps the guide would be part of the staff of the hotel she's staying at.  As she signs signs for her room and gets the key the person running the hotel desk could ask in a motherly and enthusiastic manner if Omilla is vacationing here because she is hoping to find a soulstone that calls to her?  That's where the woman at the desk met her beloved husband.  Omilla agrees to politely escape the conversation rather than because she actually came for that reason.  So the main conflict of this part from an audience's perspective would be that her outer behavior is fake and they want to know her real motive and plan, and also the possibility is introduced that a soulstone might actually call to her and interfere with her actual motive and plan.  Somewhere in here an image of the bar where Omilla will later fish for one-night-stands could also visibly catch her attention, while being contrasted with other tourists ignoring it in favor of discussing how excited the are to go to the soulmate garden.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2501516}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320357880.254168, "message": "@sunandshadow Can we cover what Mike wants to cover before we get into that.  I think it will be really important to clarify what problems and struggles are in what throughlines", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2501509}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320358084.821137, "message": "@sam_potter, uh, I thoguth I was doing that - describing the problems and struggles so you guys can help sort them properly into throughlines.  Did you want something different?  If so I'm happy to oblige but can you be more specific?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2501522}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320362612.7926681, "message": "Okay... here's a thing to think about.\nWhat you have written about is all pre-story or early story. It sets up where O & V are coming from. \nWhat we need is what happens to them in the story, between the time that they show up and the time that they end up together. \nTo make sure that you are covering all that time, use the drivers as place-holders.\nDecision 1: Goes to town.\nDecision 2: Omilla goes into the Garden.\nDecision 3:\nDecision 4:\nDecision 5: Varan accepts having kids will be okay.\n\nWhat happens between Decision 1 and Decision 5?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2502013}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320362285.2307839, "message": "Mare, I want to help, but I'm running out of ways.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2501977}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320363520.4540679, "message": "There's probably one missing in there for Varan deciding to accept Omilla as his lover.  I don't mean when he first sleeps with her, I mean when he's been together for a few days and he accepts being together with her as the new/current state of his life and a positive thing.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2502094}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320363028.4341249, "message": "FWIW, the internal problems Omilla has only matter if they prevent her from moving forward in some way. If they don't inhibit her, then they are just character traits.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2502049}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320363340.770107, "message": "5 is probably not enough there, since 1 happens in the prologue and 5 in the epilogue there should be more in between, about two per act.  But, starting after two: Omilla decides to investigate the soulstone, and specifically decides to do it with the methods of the disguise and questionnaire.  Hearing that Varan doesn't want children, Omilla decides to discard Varan as a possibility, putting the soulstone back in the garden, and proceed with the plan of the one night stand at the bar.  She feels guilty for rejecting Varan and decides to do him an anonymous favor to compensate.  Then at the bar Omilla realizes she can't muster any enthusiasm for anyone but Varan and goes back to the hotel alone; there she decides to seduce Varan and get pregnant by him, then go home with the child.  After she leaves Varan is shocked and decides to investigate and pursue her.  After he finds her and finds out about the child and why she wanted one so badly he decides he wants to marry her and raise the child with her even though it doesn't match his long-developed vision.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2502078}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320364082.5773809, "message": "So yeah, that's 9, that works out well - one before the story starts, then one midpoint and one climax per act:\n0. Omilla decides to go to romance town to get pregnant\n1a. Omilla decides to investigate the maker of the soul stone\n1b. Omilla decides to dismiss Varan as a possibility and go back to plan A\n2a. Omilla decides to do Varan an anonymous favor to balance feeling guilty\n2b. Omilla decides she only wants Varan and will seduce him\n3a. Varan decides to accept Omilla being his lover and in his life\n3b. Omilla confirms her pregnancy and follows through on her earlier decision to leave\n4a. Varan is shocked and decides to find Omilla\n4b. Varan learns about the pregnancy and the truth and decides children are ok", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2502168}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320366625.836148, "message": "So I guess... In Act One I can see Uncontrolled->Control or Pursuit-Avoidance or both.  In Act Two I can see Help->Hinder or Logic->Feeling or both.  In Act Three maybe Uncontrolled->Control?  And in Act 4 Logic->Feeling and Hinder->Help.  Bleh that was probably just a mess, I'm really not good at this part.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2502395}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320370370.6807499, "message": "Two things.\n\n1. Do you have any idea why I chose 5 Decisions for my list?\n2. I don't care about the decisions so much as I care about what happens after each decision.\n\nMy deciding to join the army isn't particularly conflictual. Having to leave my wife and deal with the circling neighborhood guys is.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2502734}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320370918.7967999, "message": "1. I assumed it was because the driver is most clearly expressed by the act climaxes, and you added one at the beginning for the initial incident.  I'm guessing that wasn't it?\n2. Maybe you're more focused on actions than decisions?  Making a decision can involve a lot of conflict, either inner or between two people.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2502775}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320373497.6184239, "message": "Also re 1, the following is a pretty common mathematical way to progress from monolithic story idea to list of major plot points:\nA. Start with initial incident and climax.\nB. Add a reversal at the midway point.  For a two-act story you are now done.\nC. Of the two halves, add a complication or point of no return at each midpoint.  Now you have four acts, or three if you combine the middle two.\nD. For each act, add a mini-reversal at the mid-point.  That's the 9 I've got.\nE. For each location change, topic change, or POV change, insert a scene break.  Now you have a scene-by-scene outline.\nF. If it's a novel and if the scenes are small and numerous, recombine them in groups of up to four to get chapters.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2502975}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320377060.8039229, "message": "0 and all the bs:1b, 2b, 3b, 4b.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2503220}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320376655.0448401, "message": "Just for fun, If you HAD to pick only 5 decisions which drive the Overall Story what would they be? first decision starts the story, the second decision turns the story to act 2, 3rd, 4th, and the 5th decision ends the story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2503189}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320377499.5627611, "message": "That sounds good.  What about Mike's earlier questions regarding problems in SS", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2503262}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320377709.0093939, "message": "@sunandshadow You may have answered this.  I cannot recall.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2503285}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320377909.038486, "message": "Or Obligation in the sense that he imposes an obligation on her that she doesn't want.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2503312}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320377665.2185869, "message": "Mike: I don't recall seeing anything dealing with problems, and problems are at the heart of any story. \n\nSo, for their soulmatey nature: is the problem that Omilla wants choice but isn't given any? Is the lack of instant magic between the two confusing because they both had preconceptions of what meeting the soulmate would be like? Is the problem that Omilla keeps delaying things, and the magnetism heats up dangerously? Is there a rebellion against the lack of openness? Does Varan scare Omilla away because he is so open to whatever comes?\n\nOmilla wants a baby, and nothing seems to be getting in her way. Her approach waylays her for a bit, she has a negative attitude towards the town, she's too concerned with what works for her, she has trouble opening up to having to tend to a baby... what is it that gets in her way?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2503280}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320377631.276911, "message": "Mike: I just think without that stuff, there is no story. Stories are about struggle -- even minor struggle -- and it just hasn't really been discussed.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2503275}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320377873.8315461, "message": "I don't think Varan's open anyway, there are several terms that better fit what about him intimidates Omilla, such as his commitment.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2503305}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320377790.8079331, "message": "With that specific list of questions I thought they were based on a different storyform than we decided to go with, since we don't have delay and openness in it.  I didn't want to muddy the question by using terms not in that storyform.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2503296}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320378159.121922, "message": "Mare, I'm done. I was willing to do a walk-through, but this is what is going on: you have put in zero effort over the years to learn Dramatica. You claim to have a non-western mind that thinks differently. Maybe, maybe not. What is blatantly clear, though, is that you don't have even the most basic of dramatica concepts down. \n\nThey're not easy, and they take a while, but you seem to not have even tried. \n\nMore so, you seem incapable of answering the questions that I ask you. You *think* you are answering them, which is almost worse, because it means that you have cemented terms in your head that are just wrong or improperly defined.\n\nI'm happy to help people out to the extent that I can with Dramatica. But this has turned into a \"teach all of dramatica\" thread, and it feels very one-sided. \n\nIf you have specific questions about Dramatica, I'm happy to answer those, but I'm through with this thread.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2503345}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320381200.0740559, "message": "That's... quite insulting.  This thread is over 600 posts long and you haven't seen me say one thing you thought was insightful or evidence of effort?  Tempting though it would be to write an argumentative reply, it would be pointless, because if you haven't understood any of my points or perspective in the whole thread there's little more I could say to change that.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2503587}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320382107.037406, "message": "Learn what a driver is, and why I only cared about what happened after them -- it's not because I prefer action. Learn what a Problem is. Learn what a Unique Ability and a Critical Flaw are. Learn why wearing a costume is not the same thing as \"Playing a Role\" every single time. Learn how to separate an MC from a Protagonist in the same player. Learn how to connect examples from your story to terms in the story engine. Learn what an IC is and why they need to be developed.\n\nThese are critical things to be able to do to understand Dramatica. \n\nBeing able to paint Omilla as a fake tourist is one thing. But this is a Dramatica board. I have no qualms with your story. I want it to be awesome. It could be. Someone afraid of their soulmate? That's ballsy! I've never heard that, which makes it interesting. But until you can turn that into conflict, it's not a story. And if you want Dramatica to make your story really sing, then you have to learn Dramatica. And it's not a bunch of mad-libs tarot cards. It's just not.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2503677}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320381530.9824309, "message": "You've put effort into your story, but not into Dramatica.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2503616}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320391657.208322, "message": "Urghh.  I don't have the emotional fortitude to deal with all of this tonight.  But here's a start.  You've said the story goal is Innermost Desires.  Okay.  In the story that is the desire to be happy via having both a child and a _good_ relationship with a soulmate, as opposed to Omilla's imaginings of how such a relationship could turn out badly.  If that's wrong I might as well give up there.  Assuming it's right, the Dram Dictionary says Unique Ability is what makes the MC uniquely suited to determine the overall story's outcome.  The storyform we are looking at says Omilla's UA is Attitude.  Within the story Attitude could cover a few things: Omilla's concern with being careful for herself, Varan, and her future child; Omilla's penchant for acting and using disguises to avoid trouble; and Omilla's strength of character and resolve to be true to herself (i.e. pursuing obtaining her innermost desires).  I don't know which if any of those you'd consider correct.  But either way, her Unique Ability is supposed to be balanced by her Critical Flaw, which in this case is Choice.  So theoretically what blocks her progress toward Innermost Desires is that she is making Choices wrongly somehow.  Possibly being too focused on what is practical, probable, safe, and/or ethical instead of what is better but less likely and more risky or morally questionable.  Then, I guess the Driver of Decision should tie these two together.  I listed the main decisions in the story.  Oddly enough it does seem as if all the As involve attitude and all the Bs involve choice.  Optionlock seems to be in there too - all the As are about how to attempt a new option, while all the Bs are a choice to discard that option which forces an action to try a new option.\n\nSo you tell me whether that is all wrong.  Because if it is then I don't think I'm actually capable of understanding Dramatica.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2504183}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320423806.7834339, "message": "One of the difficulties with Dramatica is that you have to break down how you previously thought about stories and then build your understanding back up. Once you do that, you'll see how the two methods are mostly mutually compatible, but trying to maintain a previous method in mind while learning Dramatica leads to a lot of confusion -- this is my experience, and I've witnessed it in others. I'll parse your paragraph, but beware that some of it might not make sense if you're trying to understand it in two ways at once.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2506401}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320425439.1365991, "message": "Mare: You've said the story goal is Innermost Desires. Okay. In the story that is the desire to be happy via having both a child and a _good_ relationship with a soulmate, as opposed to Omilla's imaginings of how such a relationship could turn out badly. If that's wrong I might as well give up there. \n\nMike: A single Innermost Desire is the OS Goal, and also the Concern in the OS. A goal is one thing, so it can't be \u201cboth a child and a good relationship with a soulmate.\u201d If you want to do that, you have to reword it as something like: she wants a strong family.\n\nIt may seem like that's just a semantic difference, but it makes a big difference when you assess whether or not this is a Success and Good/Bad.\nGetting only one means Failure.\n\nIt also make a difference when figuring out who the protagonist is. If Omilla wants a baby, but the magic of the town wants her to fall in love, these things will conflict. If she wants both of them, it will affect her strategy. Etc.\n\nAlso, you have to be able to realistically achieve a goal in a story. My personal desire to play in the NFL is wonderfully motivating, but in high school \u2013 despite that motivation \u2013 it could not have been the goal of my Senior Year. Because I just couldn't be in the NFL. So, the goal would have to be something along the path to the NFL.\n\nSo, to sum up, I have issues with your statement because it seems like two goals, only one of which can concretely be reached within the context of the story itself.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2506522}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320426226.3432419, "message": "Mare: But either way, her Unique Ability is supposed to be balanced by her Critical Flaw, which in this case is Choice. So theoretically what blocks her progress toward Innermost Desires is that she is making Choices wrongly somehow.\n\nMike: No. Omilla is the MC and the Innermost Desires are the domain of the Protagonist and the OS.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2506593}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320426606.58325, "message": "You can understand this. You just have to stop believing that you do understand it in order to make brain space for what is actually correct.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2506625}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320425995.5228081, "message": "Mare: The Dram Dictionary says Unique Ability is what makes the MC uniquely suited to determine the overall story's outcome. The storyform we are looking at says Omilla's UA is Attitude. \n\nMike: Specifically, the UA is what allows the OS Requirement to be met. That tends to be needlessly technical when outlining, but that's what it is.\n\nMare: Within the story Attitude could cover a few things: Omilla's concern with being careful for herself, Varan, and her future child; Omilla's penchant for acting and using disguises to avoid trouble; and Omilla's strength of character and resolve to be true to herself (i.e. pursuing obtaining her innermost desires). \n\nMike: I think this is all over the place. The first one seems fine. The second one seems more like it's an Approach and not an attitude at all \u2013 it's dynamic opposite in fact. And the third one, yeah sure. She could be stubbornly determined to be true to herself, but I just have to ask, what does she want more? To be true to herself or to have a baby and a good soulmate? She can have it all, but she's got to be aware that she's getting in her own way here. And that makes it seem more like a Problem. She could certainly have a different problem, but you seem so loathe to say what her actual Problem is that I don't know if you're just putting it in the wrong place or what.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2506581}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320426578.848778, "message": "Mare: I guess the Driver of Decision should tie these two together. I listed the main decisions in the story. Oddly enough it does seem as if all the As involve attitude and all the Bs involve choice. Optionlock seems to be in there too - all the As are about how to attempt a new option, while all the Bs are a choice to discard that option which forces an action to try a new option.\nMike: I tend to think that the Drivers involve the Problem more than anything else, but I don't think this is hard and fast.\n\nAgain, though, I think you have a poor understanding of the UA, the CF, and Drivers, so it's hard for me to really comment on this.\n\nDrivers, for what it's worth, are watershed moments where the things that happen after them would have goon differently had it not been for the driver. So not every decision is a driver in a Decision movie, not every action is a driver in an Action movie. You don't \"add one at the beginning because that's where the inciting incident is\" or whatever you said earlier. It *is* the inciting incident, because without it, there is nothing else. No story whatsoever. Or a different story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2506623}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320429969.609591, "message": "There is a good article on process vs. technique - http://fastscreenplay.com/process.html.  I think Dramatica is a process on which you can plug in any technique. But the process comes first.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2506935}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320442777.242023, "message": "Mike: A single Innermost Desire is the OS Goal, and also the Concern in the OS. A goal is one thing, so it can't be \u201cboth a child and a good relationship with a soulmate.\u201d If you want to do that, you have to reword it as something like: she wants a strong family.\n\nThis is the OS goal, doesn't that mean it's supposed to be the _type_ of goal shared by everyone (not centered on Omilla), while the individual characters have different details of their goal?  Specifically in this story everyone shares the goal to become happy by getting their innermost desires fulfilled.  I could also see calling it their personal needs.  It's not about family, and only technically about relationships in the sense that a second person is required for the identity of the person they envision becoming - a loving and beloved mother in Omilla's case, a loving and beloved soulmate in Varan's case.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2508146}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320443790.812238, "message": "Yes, it's the type of goal shared by everyone. But the Protagonist has the one true OS Goal, and you have to pick what that is. \n\nWhat I'm getting at is that you keep saying Omilla wants a baby and a good relationship with her soulmate. It can't be both. You have to pick which it is. Or if it's both, you have to merge them into something. (That happens all the time in life. I want to make the perfect dinner. That is more than one dish.)\n\nAlso, is everyone in the story involved in Omilla getting her baby? Or is the town just involved with her soulmate? I don't think the baby has anything (story wise) to do with the town. Which is why I suggested Omilla be in an Activity Domain, which is why \"a child\" cannot be part of the OS Goal.\n\nIf that's not the correct breakdown, fine. But you can't seem to break it down yourself.\n\nI'm almost ready to tell you that you need two storyforms: one with a baby goal. One with a soulmate goal.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2508252}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320444354.127115, "message": "Omilla won't be happy without a baby, even if she has a soulmate.  Would she be happy with a baby and without a soulmate, well, yes but not as happy as she would be with a soulmate too.  Varan won't be happy without a soulmate.  The mistake Omilla makes is to assume Varan won't be happy with a baby, since he says he doesn't want children.  What makes the story work is that they find a situation which makes them both happy: Omilla gets both a baby and a soulmate, and Varan gets a soulmate and decides that babies are good if they make his soulmate happy and keep her with him.  When it's that simple in plain English, it's hard to understand why it should be so complicated to describe within Dramatica. *sigh*", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2508308}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320443850.476074, "message": "But I think the better route is to focus on what the MC wants and what the Protagonist wants. Even if they are in the same body, and the things work together as complements. Until you can do that, the Dramatica breakdown will not happen.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2508260}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320445525.978786, "message": "If I had to guess, I'd say Omilla as protagonist wants to become happy by getting pregnant/becoming a mother while Omilla as MC wants to act properly (i.e. control/protect/be ethical).  And that's THE major source of the conflict in the story: how can Omilla obtain what she needs to be happy if others don't want her to have it and she doesn't want to harm those others or make them unhappy?  But I don't see why the various characters can't argue over the details of the OS goal, i.e. what exactly do they need to obtain or become to be happy, motherhood vs. soulmates.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2508436}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320445084.0669179, "message": "The town is ultimately just a town; although it is set up to promote soulmates to get together it doesn't strongly want anything.  I don't think it could possibly qualify as a protagonist.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2508395}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320476386.8053341, "message": "So it was collected too?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510524}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320451277.926863, "message": "There are many solutions so it is just a matter of deciding (sounds so simple ) I have one suggestion which you alluded to.  Town B is the protagonist.  Find your hearts desire and be happy with your one true soulmate.  Town A is the antagonist.  \"There is no such thing. Compromise be pragmatic.\"  Babymomma wannabe is Skeptic and Soulmate man is, what, complex?  Of course Town B and Town A are represented by many things, people symbols. Whatever. The possibilities are fun to think about.  I see what Mike is saying about the protagonist having one clear goal.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2508993}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320460495.686286, "message": "Now, to pick the next level, you have to be rigorous about what it actually is that Omilla wants out of the weekend, what about her ethics is problematic, etc.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2509684}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320460337.1525121, "message": "@sunandshadow If Omilla as protagonist wants a baby, then great. If the way she goes about getting the baby causes problems, great: that puts her into an Activity Domain. Not so hard.\n\nIf behaving ethically is Omilla's thing, then also great. She's in Fixed Attitude. \n\nI think this makes for a clear Situation for Varan, too: he's Omilla's soulmate, and after he meets her -- in disguise -- he starts to think that he's met his soulmate (his body seems to think so) but he's been told that he hasn't met her. He has to work that out -- great.\n\nThey are in Manipulation, which is them coming to terms with their different outlooks on life or whatever.\n\nAs for other characters arguing over the OS Goal, nobody said other various characters can't argue over the details of it.\n\nThat was easy, and it was easy because you were clear about which was MC and which was Protagonist.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2509674}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320468352.7975039, "message": "I wouldn't have been able to be that clear if we hadn't discussed the story so much already, so, Dramatica aside, that right there shows how useful this whole conversation has been to developing the story concept. :) BTW it's probably more like a 2 week vacation, but that's not particularly important.  So, what does Omilla actually want out of the weekend.  Well, she is concerned about quality.  That's why the guys in her home town aren't acceptable to sire her child, and after she meets Varan no one but him will do, even though that causes her a lot of trouble.  The secretiveness and disguise and focus on controlling information and situations are also all about quality.  She's too pragmatic to want things to be perfect, but she insists that things are as good as she can make them by being sneaky and very careful. And her avoidance of problems and risks is the other side of this coin, since she thinks protecting the pretty good quality results she can get is more important than risking disaster to try to get closer to perfection.   Ethically her issue in the first half of the story is that she's giving too much weight to not upsetting Varan and not enough weight to making herself happy.  So again, that's her focusing too much on controlling and avoiding risks and problems and not enough on potential good results of gambles.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510113}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320469114.9293449, "message": "What is her plan going in to find quality? Meeting Varan causes her a lot of trouble... what trouble?\nWhy does she think being sneaky is going to be better than being open? And not just with meeting Varan.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510144}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320476064.163599, "message": "Huh... never heard that. Why do you think it's not \"predicted\" like the rest of the stuff?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510489}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320476209.258584, "message": "This is most easily seen by the fact that making any one choice usually cuts the number of possible storyforms in half or down to a quarter.  But choosing stuff in the plot progression window results in strange uneven numbers of storyforms left.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510501}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320476237.018652, "message": "But this is pure conjecture and not relevant to anything, so feel free to disregard it.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510505}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320476022.966687, "message": "The plot progressions are, as far as I know, collected from actual movies and books.  That's why they are extremely irregular in what you can or can't get.  Having few options would mean that either there aren't many stories of that kind in the data, or that the genre has a very standard plot progression (might be expected for romance and comedy).", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510486}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320476528.6784141, "message": "I'm trying to focus on just one thread. I feel like Omilla's Fixed Attitude could be anything but Internal Desires. What do you think?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510543}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320476770.2714701, "message": "BTW with throughlines I would guess that all the stuff about quality/secrecy/control is not the OS (or the IC, obviously).  So it could be MC and/or SS.  And I'd guess that anything about Varan being too perfect/dreamlike or imposing commitment is either SS or IC.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510562}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320475845.0877931, "message": "Interestingly, almost all the signposts are selected with the current decisions in the story engine.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510467}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320475986.2747321, "message": "Anyway, you've got information there from all 4 through lines, so it's hard to tease apart.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510480}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320476099.9497759, "message": "The rest of the stuff is very strongly patterned when you plot out all the possible results.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510496}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320476583.347038, "message": "Well there are lots of example stories collected in the software.  My guess is they were all analyzed in the process of forming and/or testing the theory.  The plot progression stuff for some reason did not get regularized, while most of it did.  The mental sex and judgment seem to be the other two parts which are not completely mathematically regular.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510549}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320476626.3565121, "message": "Probably the plot progression data did not show a simple enough pattern to make it generatable.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510556}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320476718.1381519, "message": "How isn't it regular?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510560}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320475566.0257649, "message": "Her plan to find quality... first step is going to romance town because she's already experienced that the men in her own town are of low quality.  Then look at all the men, she'll know a high quality one when she sees him, at that point if necessary come up with a strategy to get his cooperation without making herself vulnerable/giving away too much information.  She doesn't want to commit herself to any one option until she's seen them all, although she will discard options as they are revealed to be unacceptable, narrowing down toward one or a few equally good choices.  Secrecy protects her freedom from being pressured to commit or being pressured into an unpleasant, aka low quality situation by the interference of others.  Meeting Varan causes her trouble because he's too appealing, almost perfect except in that one crucial way; when she tries to discard him as an option and get a different babydaddy she finds she can't because he has stolen her focus and shown all her other options to be unsatisfactory compared to him.  And he obviously will want to interfere with her and pressure her to commit to him as soon as he finds out she's his soulmate.  He's like a trap that she knows perfectly well is a trap but the bait is irresistible.\n\nI can only hope I'm being clear here, but please do ask again if you think I'm talking around anything.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510456}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320477210.4910879, "message": "The plot progressions?  Basically there are thousands theoretically possible, and maybe a third of those did not show up in their data.  Sometimes for a good reason, because the progression wouldn't make any sense.  Other times it might have been fine but they didn't have any example proving it would work so they erred on the side of caution by leaving it out and directing users toward a proven alternative.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510576}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320477362.9385331, "message": "To see for yourself is simple: open dramatica (a new blank file), go to the plot progression window.  For OS signpost 1 try putting in each possibility and watch how radically the number of possible storyforms changes.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510582}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320477550.2605181, "message": "Well, choosing one of anything shrinks the number of storyforms radically.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510603}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320477909.6275721, "message": "I thought it was unlike the rest of the theory too.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510635}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320477975.0827911, "message": "The point about choosing one is that different choices change the numbers irregularly.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510640}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320477777.861999, "message": "This all seems very unlike the theory I know, and extremely unlike Chris and Melanie.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510623}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320483486.375313, "message": "Darnit, missed this post until I refreshed \"I'm trying to focus on just one thread. I feel like Omilla's Fixed Attitude could be anything but Internal Desires. What do you think?\" I think that Hope is kind of reasonable as an issue, and Dream as the counterpoint (those being in Innermost Desires).  But Impulsive Responses might be relevant since it contains Value, Worth, and Worry.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510907}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320483862.0393679, "message": "Yeah I'd have a really hard time choosing between Hope for Omilla vs. Dream for Varan and Worry for Omilla vs. Confidence for Varan, or even Worth for Omilla and Value for Varan.  But When you look at what's in the corresponding quads in the other domains, Innermost Desires has all the good stuff while Impulsive Responses has crap.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2510924}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320506979.3241529, "message": "Omillas personal problem is ethics. What does Hope have to do with secrecy?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2512046}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320506999.670841, "message": "Use examples from the story", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2512049}, {"user_id": 10814, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320511466.1066959, "message": "@sunandshadow  \"Well there are lots of example stories collected in the software. My guess is they were all analyzed in the process of forming and/or testing the theory. \"\n\nNo so.  ALL of the examples were create AFTER the software was made to corroborate the mechanics of the theory.  The story engine is not built one examples, but generates storyforms whole cloth.  The reason there are \"incompatible\" plot progression paths comes from the bias built within the software to give it a baseline, and therefore allow meaning to be gleaned from the storyform.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2512388}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320513622.7095699, "message": "@MikeDerk - Oh you were looking at Fixed Attitude as MC throughline starting last night, sorry, I got confused by that.  Though, honestly, wouldn't you expect ethics to go with the sub-elements of Obtaining or Changing One's Nature or even Future?  But ok examples from the story.  The first ethical dilemma is that she knows Varan would want to know that she's his soulmate.  But she doesn't want to tell him because that would make her vulnerable to a lot of interference by him.  So if that were Hope and Dream, Dream would correspond to the idea of being honest and helpful and open with everyone, very ethical, while Hope would correspond with pragmatically protecting herself from interferance and Varan from disappointment by keeping him ignorant.  It's not really a strong match for Hope and Dream, but I don't think it would be significantly stronger for Confidence and Worry or Value and Worth or even Closure and Denial is about equally halfway relevant.  Sorry that this probably wasn't helpful, I only had 10 minutes this morning and I gotta run now, back in 3 or 4 hours.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2512631}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320513818.5491409, "message": "@Chris_Huntley Huh, ok, I did say it was pure conjecture.  But that makes me quite curious how you came up with the part of the theory about plot progressions if it's not based on studying examples.  I just can't picture how a plot progression could be predicted from a storyform because you're moving from non-linear to linear.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2512642}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320526302.39415, "message": "Omilla decided to have a baby, therefore, she goes to the town. But the bars are closed. Therefore she ....", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2513908}, {"user_id": 10814, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320520808.1310279, "message": "Space and time are interconnected, even in the psychological model of how we think.  If you know how one part works, you can predict how the other part works.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2513403}, {"user_id": 10814, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320520867.3678, "message": "After all, Dramatica is really just a working model of human psychology, particularly how we solve inequities.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2513407}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320526349.8136401, "message": "Google Matt stone and trey Parker crash NYU", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2513911}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320526571.2139299, "message": "Watch the two minute video. Then talk about your story that way, pls", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2513931}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320530246.577389, "message": "There's the link", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2514367}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320530237.91697, "message": "http://www.buzzfeed.com/jpmoore/matt-stone-and-trey-parker-crash-an-nyu-writing-cl", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2514365}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320534587.0027919, "message": "Stone and Parker are a lot of fun, I've been a South Park fan for years.  I guess I can try to talk about my story like that.  As a preface, let's imagine that Omilla has two versions of her inner self sitting on her shoulders, not an angel and a demon but one is a military strategist and the other is a dreamy idealist.  We can call them Strategist!Omilla and Idealist!Omilla.  The strategist is the protagonist and the idealist is the MC, if I understand correctly how we are dividing her different sides into throughlines.\n\nIdealist!Omilla says: Wow I would love to have a baby and be a good mommy, that would make me happy.\nStrategist!Omilla says: BUT the guys here in town demonstrably don't care for me, and in this town everyone sticks their nose in everyone else's business.  If I sleep with one of these guys just to get pregnant not only will it be an unsatisfactory experience, but he or his friends or relatives or my friends or relatives might try to force us to be a couple or criticize us for creating a child without being married, further making it an unpleasant experience for both me and the child in the future.  THEREFORE I will go to romance town, get pregnant there by a higher quality guy, not tell that guy about the pregnancy, then come home and not tell anyone about the guy.  I will have controlled the situation to avoid a lot of sources of unpleasantness, and in doing so protected both myself and my child.\n\nThat was probably too wordy, I'll simplify.\nIdealist!Omilla wants a baby so she can be a mother.  BUT Strategist!Omilla forsees that doing this in her town with a local guy will cause a bad experience for her&child in the future.  THEREFORE Strategist!Omilla decides to avoid this problem by going to Romance Town and stifling information about the conception so no one (antagonists?) has enough to cause trouble.  BUT Varan (as contagonist?) via his soulstone says: Psst, you can have a soulmate, that will make you happy.  Idealist!Omilla wants to be happy and is tempted by the idea that being a mother and a beloved would make her even more happy than just being a mother.  BUT a soulmate is not what Omilla is looking for, there's far too much commitment/obligation involved; Strategist!Omilla objects to the riskiness of giving someone the information that she is supposedly his soulmate.  This again could lead to a bad experience.  THEREFORE Strategist!Omilla decides to investigate the man without revealing herself to him as his potential soulmate.  IN RESPONSE Idealist!Omilla objects to dishonestly treating someone in a way she knows he would not like to be treated.  BUT Strategist!Omilla overrules her.\n\nIs that what you wanted?  Want me to keep going through the synopsis in that style?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2514880}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320538965.988579, "message": "So Omilla interviews Varan in disguise, saving the most important question for last (much like saving the most obvious and simplest option of picking up a guy at a bar for last).  Idealist!Omilla really likes Varan, because as an Idealist she always deep down thought she was supposed to get an adoring lover, and was hurt when it became clear that she wasn't getting one.  Even Strategist!Omilla is tempted - it would be so darn _convenient_ to not have to deal with the difficulties of being a single mother or worry about gossip because no one would criticize a sappily-in-love pair of soulmates for having a child.  The key question that makes Strategist!Omilla remain skeptical is, Can Varan be trusted not to use his commitment/obligation to create a bad situation for Omilla?  BUT unfortunately Varan says he doesn't want children, revealing that no he can't be trusted.  Idealist!Omilla is deeply disappointed and Strategist!Omilla scratches him off the list of possibilities and is relieved that she didn't reveal who she was to him.  This is expressed by Strategist!Omilla returning Varan's soulstone to the garden even Idealist!Omilla has already formed an attachment to Varan and cries in grief to give up the idea of being loved by him.\n\nHaving closed the book on that possibility, THEREFORE Strategist!Omilla methodically investigates the next option by going to the bar.  She has no difficulty attracting flirtatious attention.  BUT Idealist!Omilla throws a wrench in the works by refusing to sleep with anyone who isn't Varan.  THEREFORE Strategist!Omilla goes back to her hotel room and back to the drawing board to figure out what to do about this unforeseen problem.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2515448}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320548470.950449, "message": "(Just realized I skipped the anonymous favor part, oops.  Basically Idealist!Omilla felt guilty and Strategist!Omilla came up with the favor as a safe way to mathematically cancel out that guilt.)\n\nIN CONSEQUENCE of this surprising show of stubborn desire by Idealist!Omilla, Strategist!Omilla is reminded that the reason they are here in the first place is to make Omilla happy, even if this ultimately requires using morally questionable or risky methods.  THEREFORE Strategist!Omilla comes up with a plan to seduce Varan and get a child sired by him, even if he himself can't be trusted and thus can't be acquired as a long-term lover; this will be done without telling him about either her potential soulmate-ness or her intention to get pregnant to avoid possible bad situations where he attempts to interfere with Omilla's child or her return to her home town.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2516576}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320559557.2252791, "message": "Why do I say this? Because the Doing story doesn't go into the Skill quad. It goes into the Enlightenment Quad.\n\nBut!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517405}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320554509.7551701, "message": "Mare: \"The strategist is the protagonist and the idealist is the MC, if I understand correctly how we are dividing her different sides into throughlines.\n\nIdealist!Omilla says: Wow I would love to have a baby\"\n\nBoom, done. Stopped reading at this point. \n\nThe Protagonist wants a baby. That's why the OS is activity.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517093}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320555234.0584569, "message": "Varan's turn.  Varan has spent his life buying into the idea that it's his destiny to be found by his soulmate, and to in turn be a doting soulmate to her, and live happily ever after.  Children have been excluded from this vision as they seem like an unnecessary complication that interferes in the pure passion and romance between two soulmates.  His recent interaction with the disguised Omilla made no impact on the fact that he was contentedly waiting for his soulmate, despite the fact that she acted a bit suspicious and there was at least one clue there he could have picked up on.  BUT, now a woman, apparently not his soulmate, approaches him and all but begs him to be her lover.  He feels drawn to her in the same way he always imagined he would feel drawn toward a soulmate.  So, even if they aren't true soulmates, he decides it's good enough for the moment and becomes her lover and acts lovingly toward her.  (This is a clue to Omilla that Varan could maybe adapt to the idea of liking children, but she is set on not trusting him and not risking telling him the truth.)\n\nAS A RESULT Idealist!Omilla gets a taste of what it feels like to be loved.  It's really nice; but, ultimately, she wouldn't be happy with this and no child.  So this reinforces the fact that she made the right decision when planning to get pregnant and leave.  THEREFORE, once she has confirmed her pregnancy, she leaver.  So Varan was just accepting Omilla as his unofficial soulmate, BUT now she's gone!  This is finally enough to jar Varan out of his contentment and into action.  He looks through his memories of Omilla for suspicious behaviors and clues as to why she might have left and where she might have gone; he finds them.  IN RESPONSE  He searches his town, questioning bystanders, and tracks her back to her hotel, and discovers that she has returned to her hometown.\n\nIN RESPONSE he follows her there and finds her.  BUT he discovers that she is pregnant and that she knew she was his soulmate but decided to reject him after interviewing him in disguise.  IN RESPONSE he realizes he needs to find out why she feared becoming his soulmate.  He continues his new active behavior by questioning her, pressing her to communicate the whole truth to him.  IN RESPONSE she explains everything, tells him she does love him and would like to be with him, but being a mother was her deepest want and he can only be with her if he doesn't try to get between her and her child in any way.  BUT he says if she would have told him in the first place that she really loved and wanted children he would have been happy to give her one and raise it with her.  And he still is because he loves her and doesn't hold it against her that she withheld information from him out of fear.  THEREFORE they become true soulmates and truly happy with each other and their children.  The end.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517139}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558319.8908601, "message": "This forces Impulsive Responses onto the MC, which I alway see as the \"defense\" against our innermost desires. In her case, it's her ethics -- it's her town's way of being that has become ingrained in her. \n\nWhat do you say she's always thinking about -- the future. \n\nWell, look, right there under Impulsive Responses, we have \"Worry\" as an issue -- \"concern for the future.\" Bingo.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517307}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320555925.8207419, "message": "@MikeDerk Is it really that simple?  It doesn't matter that Strategist!Omilla the Protagonist is primarily worried about possible bad situations in the future?  If Idealist!Omilla the MC is focused on happiness, and thus Fixed Attitude, that would require Varan to be Situation, and focused on the future.  Activity OS would also make the SS Manipulation so Omilla and Varan's relationship would presumably be about them either each changing the other's thoughts, or each changing their own thoughts.  Does all that truly sound correct?  If so, perhaps we can finally move past the throughlines, permanently.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517178}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558770.0784509, "message": "@sunandshadow Yes, I see that I had that backwards.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517350}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558548.147789, "message": "What would the Protagonist say her problem is? \nWe can debate this later, but my instinct says that it's process.\nIn this town, the process is \"soulstones\" ... which isn't really how she wants to go about it because it introduces the messy issue of a potential bad relationship. But she does it anyway, and that just gets her wrapped up in it.\nSo she focuses on her Response: Result.\nShe just wants the result of a one-night stand: le beb\u00e9.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517328}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558823.0432179, "message": "Oh, and just so we see that OS Symptom of Process is not just soulstones... the process of finding a man hasn't worked (at home) so she's also just out for a baby.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517360}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558615.767653, "message": "The irritating thing about Doing as a concern, though, is we have to pick the throughline issue from its subelements, which don't strike me as relevant.  I should probably look them all up one at a time though, a definition might make me see a relationship.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517335}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558525.2849679, "message": "Ultimately he wouldn't care if she turned out to not really be his soulmate because he loves her.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517325}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558659.7138619, "message": "Well, taken literally the protagonist would say her problem is other people who ware inclined to interfere.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517341}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558062.5750871, "message": "I went back and read a bit more, and here is the thing, and perhaps I stopped reading on a technicality.\n\nThere is no Protagonist or MC until the first Driver -- in this case, the decision. Because that's when the story starts. So I saw Ideal!Omilla wants a baby, and that sentence is equivalent to MC wants a baby, which is just not what we had landed on yesterday and it was very frustrating.\n\nMoving past that... yes, this is exactly what I wanted. I think it clarifies a lot -- I hope you feel that way to.\n\nThis is the main thing that jumped out at me: Omilla seems to be concerned less with Obtaining -- although, yes, she wants a baby -- and more with Doing Things Right.\n\nIt would be a bad move to sleep with someone in her town. I see this as a problem of Doing. Do this (sleep with that neighbor) and their will be problems. So... off to Romance town.\n\nThen, there, she meets Varan because of something she Does. In fact, Obtaining him is something she rejects!\n\nThis leads her to Do The Right Thing to cancel out the guilt.\n\nEtc.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517286}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558400.5911369, "message": "This also forces \"playing a role\" into the Concern for the SS.\nShe's worried about seeing him, so she disguises herself.\nHe's worried he'll never find his soulmate, so he takes on the lover at hand. This isn't who he is ... he's playing a role.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517316}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558420.212199, "message": "Let's go deeper.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517318}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558683.043026, "message": "Unfortunately, her issue of Guilt gets in the way. (MC Problem of Accurate -- guilt is \"outside the lines\" and she doesn't like it.) But she doesn't know that, she still sees it as a fallout of the Process, so she focuses on Result again (this time, MC Response, not OS Response) and tries to get the Result of a balanced-out karma.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517343}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320559717.6848731, "message": "I wouldn't worry so much about that specifically. Because... Skill is the IC Critical Flaw! And Test/Trust is part of Skill.\n\nWill this guy be able to satisfy Omilla? Is he skilled in that way? She tests him, and doesn't trust him. Decides he's not ... so his critical flaw pulls him away from Omilla. \n\nBut, his unique ability is Fact. The Fact is... he's her soulmate. Which pulls them back together.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517412}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558777.051002, "message": "Now that you point it out.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517351}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320559643.937865, "message": "I'm pasting the definition of enlightenment here for reference:  Enlightenment -- an understanding that transcends knowledge -- Not all meaning comes from experience. The mind has the ability to synthesize abstract truth that has not been or cannot be observed. When a character is able to come to an understanding of the whole that exceeds the sum of the observed parts, he is said to be Enlightened. A truly refined thematic conflict can be explored in the relationship between the practical Wisdom born of great experience and the aesthetic Enlightenment born of great insight.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517411}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558486.027458, "message": "I think you have Varan slightly backwards there - he wants love, he's been raise to believe that required him to be a soulmate, so he plays the role of a soulmate and waits for love to show up.  But the result is the same.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517322}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558924.9000621, "message": "BTW, I don't mean \"Do the Right Thing\" as a moral \"right\" ... it's more like \"Do the correct thing.\" (maybe I did both?)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517365}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558817.509377, "message": "I'm still thinking about this idea of result and accurate, it's interesting but I have to let my mind chew on it a while", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517358}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320558937.1955199, "message": "How about the part where Omilla tests Varan and decides she can't trust him?  Does that correspond to test and trust in Doing, or not?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517367}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320559017.53161, "message": "Idealist!Omilla wants to do the acceptable/morally right thing, while Strategist!Omilla wants to do the effective/safe thing.  Those could probably be grouped together under \"the correct thing\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517373}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320559249.158356, "message": "I guess the \"right\" part of doing things right is quite relevant to the sub-quad of Doing.  And BTW I did find writing the synopsis out that way to clarify things, although to me the clarity was as much in terms of scene structure as theme.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517381}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320559369.5500269, "message": "So long as writing it out that way helped. I find clarity comes in teams.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517387}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320559436.660538, "message": "I agree with that.  *nod nod*  So, so you think the MC Issue might be Security?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517393}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320559478.7019291, "message": "That's what strategist!Omilla is concerned with, so that's a bit confusing to me, but...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517397}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320559500.637413, "message": "I would say for sure that Test/Trust would not have anything to do with Doing.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517398}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320559945.236141, "message": "I'm off to bed.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517431}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320562763.289818, "message": "Okay, I was uncertain at first but after I spent some time looking up terms I decided I quite like these settings:\n\nMC Throughline: Fixed Attitude. MC UA: Value. MC CF: Ability\nIC Throughline: Situation. IC UA: Fact. IC CF: Skill\nOS Throughline: Activity. OS Catalyst: Wisdom. OS Inhibitor: Security.\nSS Throughline: Manipulation. SS Catalyst: Knowledge. SS Inhibitor: Confidence.\n\nThere are multiple Issue choices possible with those settings and I'm not quite sold on Enlightenment & etc. so I'm going to research those now.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2517575}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320616013.6821899, "message": "Okay, so, why do you think the OS Issue isn't Experience?  Because I think Omilla's negative experiences in the past are the root of why she fears leaving herself open to interference, criticism, commitment or obligation, and why she is always imagining how things could go badly wrong, even seemingly great things like finding a soulmate.  Even the fact that she assumes Varan cannot be influenced to change his opposition to children is a product of Omilla's experiences of living in Pragmatism Town.  Varan on the other hand wants to experience love/a relationship, but is hobbled by his lack of experience because that's why he doesn't recognize the clues that Omilla is hiding things and doesn't realize he need to more actively investigate and manipulate her into communicating her fears and desires to him.  So, do I have something wrong here, is there a good reason why Omilla shouldn't be Experience?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2521350}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320626108.2075429, "message": "Im not at my computer, so I can't look at any new storyforms. But, think about it this way: the Protagonist wants to find the right guy, but it's an external search. The MCs negative experiences are not dealt with in the OS. They're dealt with in the MC Throughline. Imagining things could go wrong seems like WORRY to me.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2522624}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320633701.2821889, "message": "Worry seems ok by itself, but it makes the IC Issue be Threat.  Is threat relevant to Varan?  He doesn't think there is any threat, he thinks everything will work out well on his own, and he misses or ignores clues that there is a problem until Omilla is gone.  I could see that being Confidence (if it weren't in the wrong domain), or perhaps he is wrapped up in his Fantasy of becoming a good soulmate and doesn't notice the signs that reality isn't quite matching up.  But meh, if I'm talking about becoming a good soulmate that should probably be in the SS anyway, under Playing a Role, since it's Varan's parallel to Omilla wanting to become a mother.  Ugh whatever, this is giving me a headache.  I guess Varan's Issue can be Threat in the negative, as in \"lack of awareness of threat\"?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2523510}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320634054.984504, "message": "Doesn't Omilla already consider him to be a potential threat, who will lure her into a relationship that isn't so good? (I'm overstating it a bit.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2523542}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320634393.3144281, "message": "I'm back at my computer. I looked at the storyform that goes with Experience. It seems like it could work, but it doesn't feel quite right to me. I think it's because the kind of experience you are talking about still feels internal to me. However, Determination and Expectation do seem to be the kinds of things you are talking about when it comes to Problem/Solution/Symptom & Response. \n\nAmazingly, \"Threat\" could still be the IC Issue. But Fantasy vs. Fact also seems to fit.\n\nJust be careful to keep your MC and Protagonist roles cleanly divided when you mull these kinds of decisions over.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2523573}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320633983.575505, "message": "Varan's threat could be that he is a threat to Omilla's plans. She never expected to be swept away by someone who doesn't want children. But if she considers it, then it's a threat.\n\nRemember, the IC is the \"you\" perspective. It's Omilla's reaction to Varan that is relevant, and threat can reside anywhere in that relationship.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2523537}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320638155.7687161, "message": "They do get the external experience of being in a relationship with each other, and earlier Omilla gets the experience of feeling pulled by first Varan's soulstone and then Varan himself?  However, we are down to few enough storyforms that we could complete them and compare their reports and stuff?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2523969}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320639690.237298, "message": "I was seeing her skill as the avoiding trouble by controlling information and acting stuff.  I don't think she has any significant skill relevant to picking up men.  Her experience of the soulstone at work and then Varan's presence at work seems to go with Desire, which is the thing that increases to make her reject the option of anyone fathering her child but Varan.  And that's what makes her re-arrange her priorities a bit and go with the new plan of seducing Varan instead of staying safely away from him.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2524079}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320638677.3698001, "message": "I do like non-accurate->accurate as a problem->solution, and the cause effect process result things also seem relevant.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2524004}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320638743.53794, "message": "What's wrong with non-accurate/accurate?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2524008}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320639062.8815279, "message": "I don't think of experience like \"a single event\", but more like \"do you have experience with this?\" (I could be wrong.)\n\nThe external experience of being in a relationship... be careful that you're not lumping the SS events into the OS. \n\nI see experience this way in your story. Does the Protagonist have experience finding men to sleep with? Does she have experience getting away with one night stands? How does that experience help her? How does it steer her wrong? What skill (counterpoint) does she have in picking up men? How does experiencing the soulstone at work affect her plans? (Because this is something she experiences over the course of the movie, and it develops.)\n\nThat's my take.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2524033}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320639444.053663, "message": "Eh?  I said I _do_ like non-accurate accurate, lol.  But ok I see what you mean about external experience.  The only experience of that sort she has is being found acceptable for sex but not appealing for romance.  So that does include picking up men, but it's not the main point, which is the more internal thing that she expects her attempts to start a romance to go wrong due to circumstances beyond her control.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2524060}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320643743.07531, "message": "Great.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2524372}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320648209.0323491, "message": "OK so, option A: OS Issue Experience, SS Issue Desire, MC Issue Worth, IC Issue Fantasy.  Seems OK, if not super-obviously right.  With these settings, if you add Non-Accurate as the OS Problem then that's down to a single storyform, yay. :)  For reference, this is storyform #26591, although I don't know of any convenient way to use that number to look up the storyform.\n\nLet's take a peek at the reports.  (It's like finally getting to open a christmas present!)  The Main vs. Impact Story Character report is one of my favorites because I always find it to give me a vivid basic idea of what the story is like.  Here it says, \"The MC evaluates Impulsive Responses in terms of Worth and Value.\"  That seems like a pretty good description for Idealist!Omilla and Strategist!Omilla, who have decided that they must have the high-worth experience of becoming a mother, and are trying to feel out a high-quality method of accomplishing this which will make Omilla happy without being too risky.  \"The IC is concerned with How Things Are Changing in how this relates to Fantasy and Fact.\"  That sounds like Varan's focus on how well his life is progressing at becoming more or less like his vision of himself as a loving soulmate.  \"The MC advances via Value but is held back by Ability.\"  Value here is Strategist!Omilla's skill at focusing on accomplishing the pregnancy by finding a good babydaddy.  Ability is... darn I've forgotten.  Was it something to do with Omilla being a soulmate/feeling the pull of Varan's soulstone and Varan himself, or was it something to do with Omilla's ability to envision ways things could turn out badly and her associated ability to avoid risk?  \"The IC responds with his own strengths in regards to Fact but is hamstrung by Skill.\"  Varan's biggest ace is the fact that he is Omilla's soulmate and does exert that pull on her that just gets stronger with time and familiarity.  But he lacks the skill of being good at being in a relationship.  He doesn't have the relationship experience or life experience to recognize the clues that Omilla is hiding things from him, and he doesn't realize that he needs to manipulate her to get her to communicate her fears and desires.\n\nAll sounds quite nice so far. :)  Please feel free to tell me what I ought to be doing next, besides looking at more reports.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2524622}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320685817.286674, "message": "It's called the MAIN vs. IMPACT report not the protagonist vs IC report so do u think it would be better to go back and think that through only using MC Omilla.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2527043}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320686229.9832211, "message": "@sunandshadow Sam is dead on. You're mixing your storylines. It's one of the best reasons to refer to the characters as Protagonist and MC.\n\nJust look at this: \"The MC advances via value...\" and then the first thing you do is mention the Protagonist.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2527083}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320710753.944473, "message": "*blows out air*  See, I thought since no one commented on me splitting Omilla into strategist and idealist versions that you didn't really agree with that.  But if this report is supposed to be about Idealist!Omilla only, I'm really not sure how that would work.  Idealist!Omilla doesn't _do_ anything in the story, she pretty much only expresses opinions on what's good/desirable and bad/repellant.  That's Worth, but it really doesn't include Value.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2529712}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320711147.9834809, "message": "Besides, she is _doing_ things (but... she's a be-er). She's interfering with the Protagonist, who would just go and get laid by the first guy she could -- because the Protagonist isn't concerned with much else.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2529747}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320710991.4546151, "message": "We said a long time ago that you need to keep your Protagonist and MC separate. I've told you to be careful about keeping them discrete. I stopped reading a post earlier because you mixed them up. What did you think that all meant?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2529735}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320711087.3125839, "message": "If this is causing you so much trouble, I suggest you rent a movie that has a podcast and listen to it. This is usually discussed, because Protagonists and MC are frequently in the same player.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2529743}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320716675.4090941, "message": "lol.  I loved the movie though and remember it clearly, at least.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2530279}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320715532.427527, "message": "*is listening to Groundhog Day podcast*  Okay, in between that part about Idealist!Omilla being a be-er and the podcast discussion I'm getting a slightly clearer idea of why the MC throughline is Fixed Attitude here and why it's Situation in Groundhog Day, even though in both cases the first thing you think of Omilla or what's his name in Groudhog day doing is running around taking Action.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2530148}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320716063.2509351, "message": "I'm kind of seeing that when people tell me I understand Dramatica wrong, my 'understanding' of it is in large part my adaptation of it to fit with my other sources of writing theory knowledge, and to make all the Dramatica terms' 'face values' compatible with my personal way of looking at the world.  Like the fact that a \"you character\" is just a really alien concept to me and probably always will be even if I memorize the definition and learn how to work with it.  I'm not complaining about this or anything; it's kind of useful to understand where the persistent miscommunication is coming from, although it's also dissatisfying whenever what feels like understanding and progress to me turns out to be a barrier to other kinds of progress.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2530221}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320716266.277878, "message": "I do wish there was an MC vs. Protagonist character report though.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2530245}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320716648.2803471, "message": "Oh... I almost warned you not to listen to that podcast. I remember the two being almost indistinguishable in that movie.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2530276}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320717339.034893, "message": "Well, the struggle that Sandy goes through will be worth it for you.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2530326}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320722108.1338799, "message": "Alrighty, so, I'm thinking that Omilla's recurrent fears of having an unpleasant experience, bad future, being harassed by interfering critical neighbors or trapped in a bad soulmate relationship, I'm thinking all these fears belong to the MC, not the protagonist.  As well as the more obvious part of the MC which is desiring happiness via the good experience of being a mother and tempted by the idea of a good soulmate relationship.  So that's the MC's big internal conflict, fear vs. desire.  I'd call that Worry vs. Worth, but we have to pick either Worry vs. Confidence or Worth vs. Value.  So what is the mental process or question we ask ourselves to know which of those is better?  (I haven't gotten to the part of the podcast about issues yet, but since the MC domain is different I don't think it will be directly relevant.  Maybe there's a podcast with a Fixed Attitude MC, I should look...", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2530719}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320722864.9194291, "message": "Heh, that is an amusing idea.  The OS issue and counterpoint is what really grabs me.  Of Instinct and Conditioning I will pick Instinct every time.  Conditioning, regardless of whether it leads to Success, never seems to be compatible with a Judgment of Good.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2530803}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320723176.672039, "message": "Given that my MCs are almost always Steadfast, Start, Be-er, Intuitive, I'd tend to assume that I would be the same as a character.  Decision Optionlock Good, but not necessarily success.  I could see it going either way.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2530833}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320722509.24002, "message": "I have listened to every podcast and found them extremely useful (it's taken me long time) but it has been a great education.   Every episode reveals something new to me.   @sunandshadow I feel like we could make a story form for you and it would be in the Truth quad and I cannot decide if the problem is perception and the symptom is knowledge or visa-verso. The protagonist \"Dramatica Woman\" is in Activity and the goal is understanding.\nTake this quote, \"the fact that a \"you character\" is just a really alien concept to me and probably always will be even if I memorize the definition and learn how to work with it. \" I feel like you are so bogged down in the trees of definitions and reports that you cannot see the forest.\nI am serious about the story form.  Take a look at it.  Maybe you will see what the solution is.  I know that the light will come on and it is not that you are wrong-wrong, there is just something askew.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2530756}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320722929.314079, "message": "In the Dramatica Woman story I made SunandShadow a change character I guessed intuitive (probably logical intuitive-but intuitive-you'll have to tell me.) Probably Decision/Optionlock and of course success/good because that is how this is going to end the last act hasn't been written yet.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2530806}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320724693.806231, "message": "It all seems to come down to whether you think my UA is Suspicion or Falsehood - am I skilled at seeing real problems between western-mindset dramatica and my personal slice of reality, or am I good at making stuff up to suit myself regardless of reality?  Now there's a matter of perspective, lol.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2530980}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320724314.17189, "message": "Oh, in the program you can certainly have conditioning and a judgment of good together, I meant that in real life heavily conditioned people are rarely happy that way, while it's usually satisfying to be in tune with one's instincts.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2530946}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320723710.839545, "message": "That's MC symptom of Perception by the way.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2530882}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320725557.761173, "message": "True the OS of understanding does not have to be success but I want to look at that storyform that way so that the solutions will be what we need to look at to predict what will create a success/good story for Dramatica Woman and Sun&Shadow. Because you will have to live act 4.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2531037}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320723681.99858, "message": "I'd say your OS options are either instinct or senses.  It may be symptom of Perception because you respond with actualities (ie: definitions and reports) See!  right there. You have so much knowledge of how the program works.  You know that conditioning never seems to be compatible with a good judgement.  That is amazing to me.  another example is your difficulty of being able to see things like Mike's example of getting out of the crevasse or up the cliff as anything other than activity and to me it is just a matter of perspective.  Yes, he does have to actively climb or move in some way but the story you tell and from which perspective is the key.  You could tell the whole story from his situation or his manner of thinking (feeling sorry for himself to conceiving an idea and so on) or you could tell it from his fixed attitude of not giving up.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2530879}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320725233.5336671, "message": "suspicion - questioning based on new evidence.  We just haven't found the right new evidence yet.  The CF is \"prediction\" - a predetermination of a future state of affairs.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2531013}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320726455.1886029, "message": "But regardless of other things, if I'm a steadfast character I can only succeed by making other things change.  I don't in reality think it would be functional to try to make either dramatica or the personal opinions of dramatica users change.  If you want to use a storyform to try to predict what would 'fix me' you have to make me a change character.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2531074}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320728451.689635, "message": "Bleh, lost post.  Here it is again:  An easy question, for once - what do you two (or whoever is reading now) usually do once you have decided on a storyform?  Besides have a party, lol.  Do you go through the story guide?  Print out reports?  Create a scene outline in a different piece of software?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2531187}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320729512.0892029, "message": "@sunandshadow but that's the point (the Sun&Shadow in this scenario IS a change character.  Assuming Mike and I are right -that there is some element of Dramatica yet to be understood-).  It's a way to predict the problem and solution to  the inequity of this thread. I see the problem as a matter of perception or knowledge.  (Why do you say steadfast)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2531253}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320730346.032726, "message": "It was an enjoyable diversion.  Maybe even educational.  And to answer your question, I just in general think of myself as steadfast.  I have been consistently described as stubborn and persistent since I was three, lol.  I have strong opinions and am very consistent in what I like, many of the things I liked 15 years ago still have a strong appeal for me.  I feel an affinity for fictional characters who adapt on the surface but have a firm inner identity, and I admire artistic integrity.  I once set up a disaster of a novel by making both the protagonist and the antagonist constitutionally incapable of changing as much as one of them needed to to resolve their conflict, and I didn't really want to kill one of them off to end their disagreement.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2531314}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320731066.5910251, "message": "Steadfast characters change in small ways, that's their start or stop, just not in major ways.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2531349}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320729751.9289639, "message": "Anyway, I'm sorry I took the thread off track.  Here is what sunandshadow said earlier:\n\n\"Alrighty, so, I'm thinking that Omilla's recurrent fears of having an unpleasant experience, bad future, being harassed by interfering critical neighbors or trapped in a bad soulmate relationship, I'm thinking all these fears belong to the MC, not the protagonist. As well as the more obvious part of the MC which is desiring happiness via the good experience of being a mother and tempted by the idea of a good soulmate relationship. So that's the MC's big internal conflict, fear vs. desire. I'd call that Worry vs. Worth, but we have to pick either Worry vs. Confidence or Worth vs. Value. So what is the mental process or question we ask ourselves to know which of those is better? \"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2531268}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320730557.086519, "message": "There's a story form for that.  The main character does not resolve his/her personal issues.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2531322}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320730472.40588, "message": "So are just beating our heads against the wall?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2531321}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320731025.3004141, "message": "That's not how I interpret it.  If I was a Manipulation character I could learn to play the role of using Dramatica properly, and that would be good enough to satisfy everyone.  As a Fixed Attitude character it's a bit trickier but I could learn to integrate dramatica-fu harmoniously with my existing writing-related knowledge and experience.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2531343}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320735306.1018839, "message": "I've been starting to go through the story guide and fill out the basic questions.  I wanted to run this one for IC Situation by you guys though, to make sure I haven't included anything that should be in a different throughline.\n\n\"Varan grew up in Romance town, seeing soulmates together and hearing about how he would find his soulmate one day.  His focus is on shaping himself, his life, even his house into an appropriate setting for a soulmate to arrive into.  If he had a soulmate he would consider his own personal situation complete and perfect.  Once Omilla, ostensibly ot his soulmate, becomes his lover, he's a bit confused - she does complete his situation pretty well.  Is it a soulmate he needs, or a lover or just her?  Then she vanishes, and suddenly none of the rest of his situation is satisfying or pleasant any more.  The situation he really needs is being with her.\"", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2531583}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320768037.714977, "message": "I apologies for invoking \"right vs wrong\". My point is, if this is about a Dramatica process and not an amalgamation of other techniques, that there is an issue of understanding and I wanted to explore a possible problem and solution, but if you choose to remain steadfast in this situation then there is no point. I am not asking u to change who u r just to get your knowledge out of the way here.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2533526}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320775418.301085, "message": "I'm trying.  I see setting aside both instincts and memories as part of the cost or work of this story.  But to me the proof is in the pudding - if I can successfully develop this heartsnare story as much as it can be developed with Dramatica, that would constitute Success to me.  My personal issue is about frustration with trying to develop stories from concept to finished story.  Dramatica is the method under discussion by which to develop stories.  I want to give it the best chance I can, try it out as fully as I can, before ultimately deciding whether I can make it work for me or not.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2534215}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320778320.0593801, "message": "\"You thought Sam and I didn't agree with a careful MC/Protagonist divide when you started talking about Omilla as Strategist & Idealist.\"  Actually I thought that you and Sam didn't think Idealist!Omilla and Strategist!Omilla were an accurate division of MC and Protagonist, just due to lack of feedback on my naming them like that.  I do think I have a better grasp on the MC portion of Omilla after realizing that she is concerned about happiness which is about both desiring things which can make her happy and fearing things which can make her unhappy.  But since to me that sounds like Worth vs. Worry I still don't know the process by which I should be deciding one is the Issue and the other isn't.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2534476}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320776851.891783, "message": "@sunandshadow I've gone through and read some posts again. I think we're at this point: you want to use Dramatica to help you develop this story to its fullest.\n\nBut, then I see things like this:\nYou wish there were an MC vs. Protagonist report.\nand\nYou thought Sam and I didn't agree with a careful MC/Protagonist divide when you started talking about Omilla as Strategist & Idealist. \n\nThis is making me back way up.\nDo you understand why there is no MC vs Protagonist report? Do you understand why there is an MC vs IC report?\nWhy do you think, even for a second, that Sam and I are flexible about one of the most basic tenets of Dramatica?\n\nAlso, when you say that you are beginning to grasp why people say you don't understand dramatica, because you are trying to interpret it through the lens of other writing theories... why would you do that? The prologue is about how different Dramatica is from other theories!", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2534358}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320779070.4344931, "message": "\"Actually I thought that you and Sam didn't think Idealist!Omilla and Strategist!Omilla were an accurate division of MC and Protagonist, just due to lack of feedback on my naming them like that.\"\n\nThen why did you continue with it? As a Dramatica board, getting the MC/Prot divide correct is kinda crucial....", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2534546}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320779192.1152501, "message": "As for deciding between worth and worry... there are a few things you can do.\n\nOne, you can develop specific examples in your story, and see which fit. Or, you decide and brainstorm based on your decision.\n\nYou can look at the level beneath the Issues and see which one is better.\n\nYou asked earlier what we do when we get the storyform... the process of getting the storyform is what I consider to be most important, because I build my story up that way. Once you have the examples you need, you may not need the storyform at all.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2534553}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320779624.3922181, "message": "Mike: \"Then why did you continue with it? As a Dramatica board, getting the MC/Prot divide correct is kinda crucial....\"\nI didn't have any feedback about how it might be wrong or anything better to go with.  At least once I named them I could see them as two separate forces.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2534599}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320779202.8337519, "message": "Ironic, huh?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2534555}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320779447.863889, "message": "\"Do you understand why there is an MC vs IC report?  Do you understand why there is no MC vs Protagonist report?\"\nMy understanding is that the MC and IC throughlines are the two people most often want to contrast, and if the report didn't exist people would get confused by the MC/IC throughline not being about this contrast but a different throughline entirely.  But I see no reason there couldn't be a report comparing any two throughlines.  The Protagonist seems to be as close as the OS comes to having a main character; I assume the OS is about both the Protagonist and the Antagonist, but the Protagonist is the 'bigger half' because the goal and the OS issue are determined based on the Protagonist.  Therefore a report comparing the MC and OS throughlines would be basically an MC vs. Protagonist report.\n\n\"Why do you think, even for a second, that Sam and I are flexible about one of the most basic tenets of Dramatica?\"\nI'm not sure which basic tenet you are talking about here, sorry.\n\n\"Also, when you say that you are beginning to grasp why people say you don't understand dramatica, because you are trying to interpret it through the lens of other writing theories... why would you do that? The prologue is about how different Dramatica is from other theories!\"\nWhat prologue?  But this question is easy to answer.  I started being educated about writing theory in elementary school, and that education increased through middle school, high school, and college where I earned my degree in English.  Fiction is fiction; all the theory about how to write fiction needs to fit together harmoniously inside my head, otherwise it would be like multiple personality disorder or hypocrisy.  I need to be able to ask myself \"What should I write and how should I write it?\" and get a clear answer that all of me is in agreement with, not have one of these \"Apples and oranges\" arguments going on inside me between different theories.  I believe that making knowledge from different sources compatible with each other is one of the most basic jobs of a scholar, and I see myself as a scholar of fiction.  Dramatica can't replace every other writing theory in the world because some of them feel really right to my instincts and have valuable insights in areas Dramatica just doesn't get into.  I feel that a person who can't integrate Dramatica and \"other\" theories about fiction doesn't really understand fiction.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2534575}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320780341.159189, "message": "Re Worth and Worry, I'll describe how they look inside my head.  In this story I feel Worth is deeper but quieter, and Worry more on the surface and louder.  Worth is what consistently drives the story from beginning to end, but because it's consistent it's not worth spending a lot of thought on.  Worry is what people are actually thinking about because it is causing specific problems and being changed in turn by other things that happen in the story.  When I look at the definition of Issue it seems to have elements of both of these things - it's talking about a value standard which would be Worth but it's talking about a concern and thematic connection between actions within the story, which would be Worry.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2534680}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320781998.452641, "message": "Based on your description of Worth and Worry, I would go for Worry.  Here is why, and again, I could be wrong, because you really understand what's you want to put on the page:\n\nIf I tell a story about mermaids dealing with the construction of a (human) hotel on the beach, there are two things: water culture and building the hotel. Water culture (how the mermaids are) is going to be there, but it's only explored when it comes up against the new influence: construction. You'll get a lot of water in the story, just because it's right there. It will dress up the story, from how the mermaids dress and sleep and eat, but it will only be explored in the conflict with humans. \n\nI hope that makes some sense.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2534883}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320781632.9455841, "message": "The prologue -- technically the Forword, now that I open the book -- says this:\nDramatica is a theory, a paradigm, a model, a philosophy of story.\nIt's got a different perspective on many of the ideas you may have\nalready learned in books and classes on writing, or from the raw\nexperience of writing....", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2534843}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320781508.7361591, "message": "The MC and the IC begin the story different, but at the end, one of them adopts the other's way of thinking. So they are most important pair to understand. That is right. I've never even seen the report, though, and I'm not confused about what constitutes a throughline because the book is very clear on this. \n\nThe tenet that I was referring to was splitting the MC & Protagonist throughline. I can see that splitting them was beneficial, and I guess it was a bump on the road to figuring out how to divide them completely. (Which, since you've listened to Groundhog Day, you know can be hard to almost impossible sometimes.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2534828}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320781798.214179, "message": "It is completely compatible with other writing theories, and the parts that aren't compatible are subsumed and corrected by Dramatica. Any time there is something in Dramatica that can be compared to another theory, Dramatica has won out, in my experience.\n\nThings that don't go head to head work simultaneously. But it takes a lot of effort to see them as working side by side. You seem to be trying to smudge them all together, instead of seeing the complements.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2534859}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320793126.625351, "message": "Bleh not one but two posts vored.  Basically I said that if terms seem smudged together, it's not that I'm starting with separate terms and mixing them, it's that I'm starting with a story where \"it's all in there somewhere\" and I haven't finished teasing it apart.  I need one of those construction signs that says \"work in progress\".  Also I like the mermaid example.  If that's so, that the Issue is about what's actually being focused on and dealt with in the theory, than Worry is definitely a better choice for MC Issue than Worth.\n\nI also explained that the reports are my second-favorite part of the dramatica program (after the theme browser) and that, if you're not familiar with the reports, they really are structured like mad-libs: The reports are written in paragraphs of normal prose with blanks in them where the program fills in the appropriate terms based on the storyform chosen.  A bit more sophisticated than oldskool madlibs though, because in some cases sentence or paragraph templates are changed out based on the storyform.  I enjoy looking at the same report for two different storyforms side-by-side and observing what stays the same and what changes.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2535967}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320796435.475601, "message": "I don't mean to be coming down on this story process -- I know it's a work in progress. As I've come to discover, I think my own script -- 5 drafts in -- has the wrong storyform. C'est la vie.\n\nWhat frustrates me is that you seem to be learning Dramatica for the first time. Yet, when I started, you had already had the program for a while. \n\nWhat I really want you to do is read the book again. Section by section, very closely, and see what clicks and how it can work in your heartsnare story.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2536307}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320879329.7813611, "message": "It's certainly not the case that I'm learning Dramatica for the first time, more that I have to un-learn and re-learn.  I got the original theory book and the program (may have been an older version) in 2001 or so.  I read the book then (would have rated it about 7 out of 10, from the very beginning there were parts I didn't really agree with but tried to go along with for the sake of experiment.  I played with the program for a while, approached it from the Story Guide, answering all the questions as best I could for the novel I wanted to write then, Kissing Dragons.  But that had 4 viewpoint characters and I had a much less clear idea of the plot than I started with here.  I could not get a workable storyform and eventually gave up in frustration and moved on.\n\nBut two or three years later I was reminded of Dramatica, and decided to make another stab at figuring it out with a different novel idea.  That time I found the Additional Materials section on the Dramatica website, so I got to read the comic book and printed out charts.  I read the original theory book again, and joined the mailing list.  That's the first time I heard \"that might be possible in some non-western version of Dramatica\" as a comment on what I wanted to do then, which was break the way domains are required to be assigned in dynamic pairs.  Another reaction was \"maybe you need multiple storyforms for this, but I couldn't tell you how many or how the story is divided between them.\"  In retrospect I agree with that; a 600 page novel just has more content, more acts, than a single Dramatica storyform.  I also printed out all the terms and their definitions, color-coded, and tried to arrange them into an outline by hand.  This is still for me one of the most easy and functional ways to use Dramatica, though I do it on the computer now.  At any rate I eked as much functionality as I could out of Dramatica for that particular story concept, but again was frustrated that there was no real way to make them compatible and extremely frustrated by the fact that there was no way to examine some of the things the software was doing internally when one choice determined another.\n\nAnother two years or so later I came back again.  The Instant Dramatica applet had appeared along with Dramatica for screenwriters, and everyone was discussing PRCO and Z-patterns, which I hadn't heard about previously.  I read up on those and the other bits of \"lost theory\" and the original patent for the program.  In the intervening time I had made big changes to the Kissing Dragons concept, to the point where it had a clear MC/Guardian, a clear IC/Protagonist, a clear Sidekick, and a clear Antagonist.  Still did not get a satisfactory througline assignment for it.\n\nI participated in the Mulan storyforming group activity, and the one for the crazy villain.  Made the Big 4 workflow thingy.  I tried to get the idea of Dramatica Cards going but there turned out to be no way to produce them for less than $20 a pack, which is absurd.  Had a different story idea, Alien Archeology Movie, and tried to make that work in Dramatica.  Interesting thing about that one is it actually had clear involvement of the Situation signposts, which is usually what I look at and think wtf does this have to do with anything in my story?  Started writing an article/walkthrough about developing an erotic romance halfway using Dramatica.  But the more progress I made at being able to adapt, i.e. hack, Dramatica to make it work for my needs and abilities, the more negative responses I got whenever I wanted to share and discuss my efforts with others.  Which brings us up to the big argument here on Convore earlier in the year.\n\nThen fastforward to this thread, this story idea was originally more complicated but I stripped it down to it's simplest possible synopsis for a different purpose on another writing forum.  When I looked at the result I though, this is the absolute bare-bones simplest story idea I'd ever want to develop, there are only two freaking characters and it's obvious which is the MC; if Dramatica can't handle this wtf could it handle?  Nothing about it should be too difficult for a group of Dramatica users of varying experience, and the results of them developing it in Dramatica could potentially be very helpful and educational not just to me but to anyone struggling with Dramatica.  So my original intent was to donate this synopsis to be made into a walkthrough by others, I never wanted to be a major player in developing the story.  But first it was just Sam, and I didn't want to let his thoughts go without a response, that would be a pity.  Then you joined, Mike, and I was being personally asked questions, there's no way I could have withdrawn and still had a walkthrough get made with me as a spectator.\n\nAt any rate, I could go back and read the original theory book again.  That would cost me nothing but a little bit of time and boredom.  But it's the opposite direction from what I'm interested in, which is the \"Storyformed, what now?\" part of using Dramatica to develop a story concept.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2542553}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320884608.8119609, "message": "I don't know, Mare... I mean, it still sounds to me like you never really grasped Dramatica. I mean, you even say that upon your first reading, there were things you disagreed with. I think that's natural, especially for someone with experience, but it sounds like you never got them sorted out. That's why I say that you seem to be learning Dramatica for the first time. \n\nI mean, you say you have a story with four viewpoint characters. I don't know what a viewpoint character is, but I can guess. Immediately, I think, okay -- it's between one and four storyforms, depending. I don't assume it has to be one storyform (although, that took a while to understand). And I don't assume that the story is wrong somehow because it's got so many people sharing their perspectives.\n\nIt's why you were rebuffed when you came here. It's fine to expand a theory. It's fine to replace a theory. But it requires proving yourself by understanding the theory you're replacing -- if you want converts, that is. Otherwise, just go do your own thing and find your own followers.\n\nEven this story... it's so stripped down that at first I thought it didn't have enough for Dramatica to chew on. Dramatica couldn't handle it, but not because Dramatica was at fault, simply because never the twain shall meet.\n\nI get that you want to go forward from your storyform to a completed story. What writer doesn't want to write? But I am dubious that this one thread has helped you thoroughly unlearn your conceptions about Dramatica and reset them properly. That's why I say go back to the book. You scorn the idea by saying it will be boring, but to me that just says you don't want to learn, you just want to go through the motions and find the things that support what you already believe to be true.\n\nAnyway, if you want to move forward, I'd line up your drivers and see how conflict moves the characters from one to the next, but that's just where I begin.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2543095}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320888154.338114, "message": "You think Dramatica couldn't handle this romance story?  I thought we had successfully decided on a storyform for it.  Do you think the storyform I decided to go with is wrong for the story somehow?\n\nAlthough I'm boggling over the idea of not knowing what a viewpoint character is, maybe that's just a novel vs. screenplay thing. In a novel or short story a viewpoint character is any character who you follow around and get insight into their thoughts for one or more scenes of a novel. When I first encountered the Dramatica concept of MC my first thought was, oh ok, they mean the primary viewpoint character, the one who gets the most \"screen time\".  My point with mentioning the four viewpoint characters is that it was a terrible first concept to try to use to explore how Dramatica works, as is anything with multiple storyforms.  If it had actually only had one storyform it would have been ok, but I don't think it did.  Has nothing to do with the story being \"wrong\" just \"Any story with multiple storyforms is ill-suited to Dramatica\", or \"Dramatica is ill suited to any story with multiple storyforms.\"  And it's always a bad idea for a beginner to try to apply any system to something it's not suited to.\n\nWhy exactly do you assume that all my initial disagreements with Dramatica were/are possible to sort out, or that disagreeing with some aspects of it would prevent me from using or discussing the system?  I just don't see any reason to think that.  But no, I keep saying, I don't have any ambition to create my own system or try to win converts for it.  The point of this thread was to see Dramatica in action on a nice, simple, short like a movie, story concept well-suited to the theory and program.  Like one of those podcasts but building up from a new concept instead of analyzing a fully-created movie, which isn't all that useful to writers who are trying to go the opposite direction, from concept to storyform to outline and then finally to movie script.  It took waaay longer and had way more wrong turns, and you're saying you see the same wrong turns in your own storyforming process.  I won't even make a guess as to why that happens, but I bet every beginning and intermediate user of Dramatica has similar problems, and they would all benefit from a better guide to walk them through the process of going from concept to storyform.\n\nBack to me, I'm not an unintelligent person, nor do I have poor reading comprehension, or lack of experience with computer programs, or anything like that.  I might even be considered an ideal candidate for a person to pick up the theory book and software and learn Dramatica.  Yet I think it fails to teach new users how to use it.  The book has no focus at all on _using_ it to develop a story concept.  The software has the story guide, but that's not a really obvious starting point and the individual questions can be pretty confusing.  That's partly a problem of its age; every $10 videogame these days has a good tutorial, but in the 90s that concept was still developing.  Possibly the next version will have a great tutorial.  But meanwhile, the evidence that Dramatica is confusing to more people than just me is the existence of dramatica consultants and workshops and the general confusion displayed by various participants during the podcasts.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2543444}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320888326.9993479, "message": "More practically, could you explain what you mean by \"line up your drivers\"?  I assume this has to do with the list of decisions made in the story that I supplied earlier in response to your example partial list of decisions?  (And I imagine there was a minor typo there and your sentence was supposed to say move the characters from one act to another.)", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2543468}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320950581.042516, "message": "Mare: You think Dramatica couldn't handle this romance story? I thought we had successfully decided on a storyform for it. Do you think the storyform I decided to go with is wrong for the story somehow?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2547461}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320951200.6166229, "message": "Why do I think that most of your initial agreements are possible to sort out? Because everyone I know who has stuck it out with Dramatica has sorted out their issues. \n\nNow, you could say that the people who had issues that couldn't be sorted out -- issues that legitimately clashed with Dramatica and could not ever be made to work. Could be. However, I have never come across a problem that couldn't be sorted out in Dramatica. \n\nAnd the reason it prevents you from discussing the system -- use it if you want -- is that it's like someone who doesn't understand evolution or heredity trying to discuss genetics. Many people understand a system and disagree with it. That's how things advance. But people who don't understand a system and disagree with it... what's the point? How can your disagreements carry any weight?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2547526}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320951396.7717781, "message": "Also, I don't really think there is a perfectly smooth way to use the program without twists and turns. I mean, that's just the nature of fiction -- it's got to be surprising, and that demands hard work on the writer's behalf no matter what.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2547543}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320950596.931993, "message": "When this process started, I didn't think you had an IC that was sufficiently developed to count as an IC. No IC, no dram.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2547463}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320950770.6568029, "message": "Well, I'm not exactly sure if you're saying that Dramatica is ill-suited for stories with multiple storylines, or if you're saying that a story with multiple storylines is a bad first foray into Dramatica.\n\nI think Dramatica is just fine for handling stories with multiple storylines -- it just takes a lot of familiarity with Dram to make it all work and not get confused. \n\nAs for viewpoint characters, do you still think that the viewpoint character with the most screen time is the MC? It's not necessarily so.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2547479}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320951314.191206, "message": "As for using dramatica... yeah. It's not all that good at explaining *how* to use it. \n\nI think the podcasts are helpful for seeing how different elements can work together, and for explaining what all the terms mean and it's good to see things in action. But then it's up to us to use it.\n\nOne of the issues is that it's such a vast system and it doesn't want to hem anybody in. It wants to be non-committal so that you can use it any way you feel helps you the most. Obviously, that has its pluses and minuses. Listening to the podcast on Glee, which I didn't finish, I was interested to hear that the show mostly focusses on \"Theme\" and not on the Problem/Response level. I thought that was very interesting, and it's not how I work. So, someone designing a How To for Dramatica has to bear that in mind.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2547537}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320954189.7801449, "message": "So, anyway, what is something you want Dramatica to be able to do that it doesn't? If you've got issues, then you can define them.\n\nAlong those lines, you talk about having a non-western mind sometimes. I don't think I've ever seen an example of something that doesn't happen in Western stories that does happen in non-Western stories. Do you have an example?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2547771}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320963240.9484701, "message": "I think the difference between Western and non-Western is what things are contrasted with what other things.  So it's not something that would be obvious just from watching a movie or reading a novel, it would only show up when you try to find a storyform for that movie or novel and it just doesn't fit.  Either the throughlines would be assigned in a way not possible within the program, or the signposts per throughline would not match the ones available in that domain (there might not even be four), or the types and variations would be in differently arranged dynamic pairs and quads, or all of these.  For a simple hypothetical example, try to imagine a Manipulation MC contrasted against a Fixed Attitude IC, with an OS of Activity and an SS of Situation.  As usual, this is all my conjecture.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2548542}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320963435.741091, "message": "It's probably true that there is no perfectly smooth way to use the program.  That's true of any creative or analytical process, really, and Dramatica is both.  But that actually answers your statement about the IC - if an IC is underdeveloped the process of storyforming and/or using the query system should and does push the writer to develop that character more.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2548564}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320965519.2284441, "message": "As for what Dramatica doesn't do or is ill-suited to do that I want it to do, that's a more complex question, and I don't want to start a big argument.  A lot of my frustrations are specifically with the program, not the theory.  For example there's no way to have two storyforms or their reports open side-by-side within the program.  And that's something I think a lot of Dramatica users might appreciate, not just me.\n\nOn the other hand, I personally like the Instant Dramatica applet a lot because it lets you either start from an officially approved storyform or manually override portions of that you don't like, or substitute in your own terms in everyday language or specific to the story.  I like this specifically because it enables hackery and/or non-Western stuff, so anyone opposed to all hackery probably wouldn't see the value there.  Of course the applet doesn't have the major functionality of the real Dramatica program which is based on the writer making a choice and the program replying with additional choices.  But to me Dramatica Pro is like flying in a plane with an auto-pilot you can't turn off.  Despite the fact that they have tried to create a flexible system it still feels rigid because there is no way to manually override anything.\n\nAnother thing I would really like is if the report templates were usable as a way to storyform, not just a way to view the results of a completed storyform.  The reports are the part of the program that most closely matches how I think about stories.  I've several times been frustrated to look at a report and think to myself, \"Why does it say X here, it should obviously say Y?!\" but figuring out what to change in the storyform to make the report look right can be quite a trick.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2548771}, {"user_id": 7664, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320969949.379168, "message": "I'm just not that interested in conjecture, sorry. I'm sure there are differences, because Chris and Melanie say there are, but I was hoping you had something concrete.\n\nAs for having multiple stories open, I'm assuming you e-mailed Chris about this. I'm curious what you would find beneficial, though, since nothing immediately leaps to my mind.\n\nThe reports are something I don't use a ton, although I'm starting to for my next project.\n\nThe auto-pilot in a car is a good analogy. Because, I can imagine no car manufacturer wants to let you turn off auto-pilot if you're just going to drive the car off the road. Allowing you to turn it off is tantamount to invalidating the theory. You can't have a theory that you can discard... then it's not a theory.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2549214}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1320978639.344413, "message": "If you're seeking concrete information about what non-western Dramatica would be, how could anyone besides Chris or Melanie supply that?  The theory is theirs, it would be impossible for anyone else to add something to the theory without an official statement by them that \"yes this is kosher\".  (I won't go into a rant about cults of personality ala Apple and Steve Jobs.)  Which won't happen because they've both said they aren't interested/have no experience or ability to say anything about a non-western version of the theory.  Me, I can tell you what I perceive to be ways that my work or others' work doesn't fit Dramatica's paradigm, but I don't see where I could get anything besides my own theory to give you.\n\nAs far as the autopilot thing goes, there are a dozen valid reasons to want to drive a car offroad.  I think you are kind of missing the point that conjecture and theory are the same thing; guesswork about how something works that is difficult to test.  If it were tested and confirmed it would them become a fact or a natural law.  Theories are also usually not monolithic, but composed of many smaller assumptions; if one of the smaller assumptions is proved wrong it does not invalidate the overall theory, just requires it to be adapted a bit.  It's normal for there to be several competing scientific theories which share some elements, because fortunately that kind of theory can't be copyrighted.\n\nThis point that theories are not monolithic and have room for internal change applies directly to Dramatica.  Say Joe Smith for some reason decide that the Situation signpost names do not fit their sub-elements, and he renames them using a scheme that doesn't have anything to do with time.  That doesn't have any effect on the other 95% of the theory.  It doesn't make it not Dramatica or not usable.  It could even become an official part of the theory if Chris and Melanie decided they liked the new set of terms and wanted to use them in the next version of the software.\n\nThe request to have multiple storyforms open at once was submitted to Chris on the mailing list at one of the two or three times the list discussed what features they want to see in the next version.  It wasn't my request, I just thought it was a great idea.  The primary way it would be beneficial is if you have two storyforms you think are equally good and you want to see what is actually different about them", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2550203}, {"user_id": 37586, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1321123262.697722, "message": "What is the story form we ended up with?", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2560155}, {"user_id": 36525, "stars": [], "topic_id": 46791, "date_created": 1321141746.7480669, "message": "OS Issue Experience, MC Issue Worry.  Mike suggested MC UA Value, MC CF Ability, OS Problem Expectation.  That's the best one we can get without sacrificing any of the fairly obvious dynamics.  There's one other nice possibility I noticed for UAs/CFs and problems/solutions/symptoms/responses, but that one makes the MC change and the Judgment Bad.", "group_id": 2515, "id": 2561977}]