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convore.json/groups/tdd/welcome-to-tdd/messages.json
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Kenneth Reitz add958b068 shuffle things around a bit
2012-02-21 01:15:00 -05:00

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[{"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348680.204109, "message": "hey all", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182237}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348133.2758319, "message": ":)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182088}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347292.353534, "message": "anyone here?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181812}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347427.9940779, "message": "Its the weakest links you need to account for with TDD", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181849}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347682.1258841, "message": "that seems to be what people think should be done", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181951}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349723.4406011, "message": ":)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182706}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347447.709445, "message": "and to borrow from 12 step... when someone has what you want, you have to do what they do to get it", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181856}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347615.1988809, "message": "making mistakes", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181917}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349708.814713, "message": "lol", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182700}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347540.4058931, "message": "a luxury i dont have", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181886}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347587.5583129, "message": "until the team could pick up some velocity", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181906}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347836.2931449, "message": "I'm waiting for the right type of project to come down the pipe, after a small one of my own, to try and actually bring TDD here.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182008}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347420.0247841, "message": "but I think Joel is right", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181848}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347452.8641109, "message": "yea, definitely... it highlights who you have to push harder to get w/ the team's level", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181858}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347535.430557, "message": "you can't learn at the same speed as doing something the old way", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181884}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347682.4668109, "message": "and it hurts because it puts the hard thinking first", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181952}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348163.5688281, "message": "like the button does the login :)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182098}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347368.5481181, "message": "I'm the wrong person to ask re the team thing - I get to hire and fire. Wrong attitude = not my problem for long :)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181834}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347758.463711, "message": "@john: haha, thats what i was afraid of and thats why ive been hesitant", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181988}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347794.57548, "message": "yea, we're a team of 5 devs, but this project currently has 2 devs on it", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181998}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347848.55158, "message": "I agree wholeheartedly stray", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182012}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348383.8193541, "message": "yea... Don't Make Me Think was a fabulous book for web dev... about 6-10 yrs ago :/", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182136}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348476.9955781, "message": "why not?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182163}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348530.28139, "message": "yes, but I meant that you're describing things that are easy to unit test", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182181}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348643.5374479, "message": "its hard to do because most people that don't practice TDD don't write testable code... the key with legacy apps is", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182220}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348672.52476, "message": "if you dont want to do TDD you're not ready", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182233}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348729.604351, "message": "@sean: pretty sure most here DO want to do TDD, I started the conversation by trying to find ways to sell it upstairs to the execs", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182254}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348784.9062099, "message": "the key for making TDD successful in my experience has been breeding the culture", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182272}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348822.062439, "message": "good point", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182287}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348844.244266, "message": "the only way you'll start doing TDD is to do it", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182301}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348883.549021, "message": "each team is different", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182318}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347475.9398379, "message": "but if you can model being the person they want to be - \"I wish my code was as good as his\" then you can pull them with you", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181865}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347546.8671451, "message": "so - you would need to allow for that", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181887}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348518.242878, "message": "Test driven development", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182179}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348604.5747919, "message": "or say all new functionality on an existing product should be unit tested first", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182206}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348666.8649831, "message": "*listening*", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182230}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348857.1629109, "message": "so, say project Y will take X days... don't say project Y will take X days, with TDD, but usually it'd be Z days without it", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182306}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348867.9587469, "message": "you don't know it'll take longer", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182310}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348889.8752179, "message": "do it first, then see if it's actually slower", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182321}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349492.4927139, "message": "theres the closest thing to proving you are right you will ever get to in software dev", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182621}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347655.1356151, "message": "lol", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181941}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347683.756351, "message": "I see your problem, hard for me to think of suggestions though cause I didn't have to convince R (myboss) that we have to do it... so for me it was easy", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181954}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347952.518265, "message": "it also helps to be honest with your team... no one wants to hear that what they're currently doing sucks. you're more likely to have them buy in if you're honest about telling them that writing tests is not easy and theyre going to have a hard time in the beginning, but that it will all pay off in the long run... hard to do without sounding like a preacher", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182037}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348511.731616, "message": "well unit tests are part of TDD", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182177}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348521.227808, "message": "tests come first", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182180}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348583.828326, "message": "with TDD, it works well when you start brand new projects", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182195}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348614.235327, "message": "it's an architecture thing", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182210}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348786.907927, "message": "as lame as that sounds", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182273}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349048.2249999, "message": "i wouldn't put it that way tony", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182393}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349067.666393, "message": "2) you need to sell it to your client as part of the development process", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182412}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349170.23456, "message": "I don't find it slower now I'm up to speed", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182474}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347340.740036, "message": "hola", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181824}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347437.144649, "message": "it only takes one person to fuck it up for everyone", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181853}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347451.4723871, "message": "true", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181857}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347479.9097691, "message": "i'm going through that process right now", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181866}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347504.4169099, "message": "but how do you \"push\" and account for mistakes made by those in a large team without severely impacting the time to completion of a project?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181874}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347884.5510759, "message": "there are 2 reasons why it feels slow", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182021}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347406.2949641, "message": "I wish", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181842}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347622.15098, "message": "I need to know how to sell that upstairs. TDD means fuck all to an executive. You can't just give them the intangible \"it will save time in the long run and create more reliable software\". They agree, then nudge the deadlines even closer", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181922}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347676.4225271, "message": "TDD is important because it helps you *think*", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181947}, {"user_id": 13302, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347720.8018711, "message": "I've never seen a team do TDD if that makes you feel any better", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181969}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347761.308567, "message": "we do", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181991}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348435.9722459, "message": "which includes mocking and front-end testing", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182148}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348873.9983759, "message": "Its like this... when you go buy a BMW, you don't tell the dealer hey can you skip all the car part tests and just whip it together on the cheap? I dont want you to waste time just build my car", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182314}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349302.931474, "message": "they damn well better", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182528}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347547.9857459, "message": "had to add time estimates into the project sprint plannings to account for me having to perform code reviews and to spend time w/ any devs that need", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181888}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347575.1851909, "message": "1s became 2s, 3s became 5s", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181901}, {"user_id": 13302, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347649.3116679, "message": "Then just write code faster, duh :)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181939}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348126.877872, "message": "devs love asian shit", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182082}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348800.4344089, "message": "dont sell it just start doing it", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182280}, {"user_id": 13302, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348127.867579, "message": "but not anything really \"relevant\" to our typical workflow", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182083}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348149.8111069, "message": "our typical workflow being \"JUST add a login button - ok?\"", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182092}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348235.323596, "message": "so - would a more appropriate kata be something like 'add a button that grabs the latest entry in an rss field and puts it in a text field'?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182106}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347534.7744479, "message": "thats what i struggle with and why i have a hard time considering TDD for anything but either personal projects, or with a team I can pick by hand and start from scratch with", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181883}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347813.039273, "message": "I feel like the more people there are, the more important tests are", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182003}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347879.947376, "message": "yeah, in that respect, it's difficult", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182018}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348301.918752, "message": "@s9tpepper: they are both sitting under my night stand. \"The Art of Unit Testing\" is next after I finish \"Don't Make Me Think\", which I'm not all that wild about.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182118}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348428.0134289, "message": "but for visual stuff - we use the SimpleTest framework for php", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182145}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348686.5802889, "message": "good stuff so far", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182241}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348895.6575871, "message": "especially for longer term engagements", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182323}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348900.948103, "message": "you gotta watch this", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182326}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348904.7415569, "message": "just watch that", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182328}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348912.9838221, "message": "if you believe in it, as a consultant it is your job to deliver the best possible product to a client", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182331}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348936.2720499, "message": "ive watched it three times", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182346}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348998.2049251, "message": "and wince", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182371}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349015.5550151, "message": ":)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182382}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349431.092834, "message": "now, its completely different", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182588}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349156.8467779, "message": "as will a lot of other factors...", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182462}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349355.9358859, "message": "portions of our \"dev\" team are just sys admins that moved in", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182550}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349356.6671951, "message": "good point @Stray", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182551}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349372.18262, "message": "@stray, agree.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182560}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347821.3871689, "message": "otherwise I'm paranoid I'll break your code", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182005}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348660.003598, "message": "yes", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182227}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348923.8984909, "message": "just watch it", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182341}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348950.389395, "message": "there's always a way to do TDD", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182350}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348979.4370029, "message": "just start testing", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182361}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349051.9935169, "message": "TDD != deadline", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182395}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349076.7912719, "message": "fuck a bird flying by can effect deadline", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182420}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349088.2686081, "message": "because the client / exec can SEE the test running", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182424}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349116.7819841, "message": "its about writing code that you NEED. you can prove that the code WORKS incrementatlly", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182437}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349725.602895, "message": "anything that has Roy Osherove's name on it and TDD... you must view.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182707}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347757.3131621, "message": "@john - really?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181985}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348963.910533, "message": "its not cut and dry", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182354}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349540.2142241, "message": "by that time everyone wanted to know more about what I was doing", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182643}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349441.1056321, "message": "@sey: yeah", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182593}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349595.987983, "message": "sean, chill out or im calling the @coding_unicorn", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182657}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350090.261116, "message": "good chat!", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182881}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347611.8340189, "message": "the fact is, you also only learn the important stuff of TDD by doing it wrong", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181915}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347768.085542, "message": "but we're a small team - 3 people", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181993}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348078.329478, "message": "I'm all for the investment, I just lack the references/salesmanship to sell it upstairs.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182064}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348121.1300111, "message": "there's sites out there that list daily katas", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182081}, {"user_id": 13302, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348302.252892, "message": "how about a \"reskin this videoplayer\" kata ;)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182119}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348408.2654109, "message": "which is basically a display-list digger", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182141}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348487.3470941, "message": "because it's very difficult to do right imho", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182164}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348730.4486489, "message": "user paths through the software", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182255}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348854.9571991, "message": "re: EE projects", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182305}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348902.1108401, "message": "http://osherove.com/videos/2009/8/25/understanding-test-driven-development.html", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182327}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348994.3129189, "message": "or you will and cringe", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182367}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348999.803206, "message": "and cry", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182372}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349360.2777669, "message": "LOL", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182553}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349369.888782, "message": "thanks", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182557}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347643.696892, "message": "yeah, sorry - hence I can't work for the man", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181935}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348453.039088, "message": "I have no idea how to do TDD w/ JavaScript/HTML... I try not to partake in that kind of development... :P", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182154}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348655.7526, "message": "so stray, you can actual automate testing of a visual interface?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182225}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348664.4916461, "message": "oh the old TDD battle huh?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182229}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348757.6740661, "message": "i haven't had problems testing button clicks, text entry, etc", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182266}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348799.1793959, "message": "exactly my point", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182279}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348806.7933559, "message": "no one tell you when to debug your code right?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182284}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349085.839524, "message": "most of the proposals I write are composed of: PM, dev, QA and maintenance", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182423}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349186.700496, "message": "and you have your architecture perfect the first time", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182479}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349245.7832141, "message": "makes it super easy", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182506}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349246.827266, "message": "that's it, in my experience anyways", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182507}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349250.4768281, "message": "so just start adding one or two", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182510}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349288.5887721, "message": "@filmaj I think it makes the process of defining the deliverable front-end-heavy", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182522}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349781.375052, "message": "a friend of mine is going to be interviewing there and i was looking at interview articles for him", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182732}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347647.6775179, "message": "I'm actually eager to apply it for the first time on my next personal project.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181937}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347648.8273189, "message": "I'd rather live on beans :)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181938}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347952.418694, "message": "but then we don't end up making changes so much later", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182036}, {"user_id": 13302, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348162.065547, "message": "right", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182097}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348391.1996839, "message": "yeah, how do you guys apply TDD to visual stuff? I know you guys mostly do flash dev, but how would you apply it to something like web dev? Is there a way to use it to help alleviate cross browser compatibility issues?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182138}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348402.4516251, "message": "I use this thing I made called robotEyes", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182140}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348753.4637811, "message": "why would you sell this ...", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182263}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348853.5598609, "message": "i agree, but look at it from a W2 guys perspective. I need to justify why something takes longer than usual as the team learns.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182304}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348888.3312869, "message": "from a project management standpoint, it's pretty easy to sell TDD to my clients", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182320}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348975.948303, "message": "yeh", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182358}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349033.7662051, "message": "So basically what I'm gathering here is that since TDD is not a deliverable, I need to bring it to my team in a way that would not impact the deadline.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182388}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349130.648478, "message": "set the expectations properly", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182444}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349166.465178, "message": "I don't know why people say that", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182469}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349184.78583, "message": "agreeing strongly with @SeyelentEco :)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182478}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349228.2951269, "message": "i see what you mean though, Seyelent", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182497}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349266.4956601, "message": "with my teams i work in one-week deliverables, so offsetting the initial deliverable by a week or two is minor", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182515}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349274.0498221, "message": "start adding test to some previous pieces of code that are important to your existing app if you're owkringo n that", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182517}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349422.103863, "message": "TDD took some amount of discipline for me", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182583}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349474.3659401, "message": "don't require it", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182611}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347945.0872841, "message": "2) It makes you think of the hard stuff much sooner, and so we find that we have more questions emerge early in the build - and the discussions are usually slow because these decisions aren't obvious ones.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182035}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348238.2557139, "message": "I also made it Clean Code and The Art of Unit Testing required reading... not exactly TDD but helps to build a strong foundation", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182107}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348285.9368279, "message": "nice", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182113}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348311.1681759, "message": "ya, i'll write it up this week i have time before next sprint... its all on napkins right now :P", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182125}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348494.568326, "message": "as in - TDD != unit tests", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182169}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348721.050503, "message": "but anyway - yes, I automate my testing of button clicks, text entry, visual transitions etc etc", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182251}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348769.204658, "message": "tools are important for TDD, but they are just a means to an end", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182270}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348796.102555, "message": "what I've had problems is figuring out if there's a way to test that for example something _is_ clickable, and that something is not blocking it... I think that's where the problem lies in visual testing", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182278}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347761.7447441, "message": "the challenge for our team was getting my devs some initial training, and increasing the estimates on my tasks so I can make sure to have time to help them if they get stuck", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1181992}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347866.8745539, "message": "Its that uncertainty that slows down deployment of updates to existing code", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182014}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306347908.557224, "message": "1) It is - in the same way as changing your golf swing (for the better) - while you're getting familiar you're going to lose some performance", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182024}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348096.6951289, "message": "Sean the flex guy has one he does", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182074}, {"user_id": 13302, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348111.360379, "message": "yeah, I've used a couple", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182076}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348463.6066771, "message": "I think it's easier to do TDD with things that make sense for it", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182156}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348472.365109, "message": "Front end testing is not one", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182161}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348622.6725979, "message": "you have to architect your app to be compatible with unit testing", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182212}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348642.5821259, "message": "you realize there are a lot of places you didn't decouple when trying to retrofit", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182218}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348068.6739039, "message": "i'm finding the same thing... my devs are asking me more questions earlier in the project lifespan, and as a result the code design is coming out cleaner and people are making less changes because the code wasn't flexible enough", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182060}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348920.406672, "message": "discussion done", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182338}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349175.307199, "message": "it assumes you write perfect code first time", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182476}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349176.135886, "message": ":)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182477}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349337.085109, "message": "we prob have all been in similar envs", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182539}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349390.8764501, "message": "here's where you'll save time with TDD... vs it taking more time.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182569}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349454.8661399, "message": "LOL", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182601}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348292.416487, "message": "share that one on github??", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182115}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349600.288569, "message": "So in short, it has to do a lot with how you introduce it and the attitude of your devs", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182659}, {"user_id": 13302, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348083.007282, "message": "It would be nice to have a Kata (or whatever) we could give to newcomers to help build confidence and familiarity", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182069}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348128.1058619, "message": "nice", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182084}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348159.6601219, "message": "Yea I used the same one Sean is using to get my devs rolling: http://osherove.com/tdd-kata-1/", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182095}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348238.7386739, "message": "or is that too much?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182108}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348270.6285429, "message": "i have a similar one I wrote up stray, that does some field validation on a search text input and calls a search on Twitter", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182112}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348290.1151741, "message": "i thought it was a little much... but it helped to get context cuz devs new to TDD want to see things they do normally", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182114}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348543.590621, "message": "but it's not that hard to test-first develop visual things as well", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182186}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348604.9074471, "message": "yeah, ive heard its a lost cause to try and retrofit a project with TDD", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182209}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348619.1263151, "message": "the clue is in the 'driven'", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182211}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348831.610014, "message": "http://osherove.com/videos/2009/8/25/understanding-test-driven-development.html", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182293}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348378.5615799, "message": "lol", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182134}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348557.9962039, "message": "welcome filmaj! Now we've got a phonegap guru to balance out all you flash devs ;)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182191}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348868.972146, "message": "Adobe Consulting does TDD for EE projects....", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182311}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349035.4485271, "message": "i was picking up lunch when you started this convo.. so i had to play catch up.. lol", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182389}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349187.736645, "message": "ok, let me re-word that", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182480}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349276.6071441, "message": "imo a good dev will take right away", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182518}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349294.384635, "message": "this is also not 2004, people know about TDD now... most devs do", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182525}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349301.5334721, "message": "even though they don't do it, they know what unit tests are", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182526}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349331.135031, "message": "lol", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182536}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349351.12639, "message": "thankfully... i haven't. :D", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182547}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348650.2870021, "message": "oh the old TDD fight huh?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182222}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348565.170547, "message": "lol", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182193}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348833.925106, "message": "watch that", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182294}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348922.0589671, "message": "seriously", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182339}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349009.6721671, "message": "ok... /rant", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182377}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349158.763896, "message": "err, you don't know whether it's going to be longer...", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182464}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349163.4931149, "message": "exactly", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182466}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349166.927609, "message": "including the way management handles the project", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182470}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349193.3896849, "message": "in my case, it would be longer, as it would involve educating a group of deveelopers with no prior experience with TDD", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182482}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349288.752537, "message": "if they dont you might start questioning their worth", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182523}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349425.204453, "message": "vs just code code code. is this right? i hope this is right? maybe it's right?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182584}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349426.931083, "message": "i agree", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182586}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348544.8302679, "message": "yes, so when starting out... start with things that are easy to unit test", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182187}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348550.864234, "message": "or at least - I don't find it that hard", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182189}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348789.575083, "message": "I've been a tech lead and a Dir of Tech... all execs want to know is timeline.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182275}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348879.9860089, "message": "that's just a generalization", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182316}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349079.155812, "message": "that's where end to end tests rock", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182422}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349151.079098, "message": "mostly during the change phase though", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182458}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349414.9053259, "message": "@tony do you still code on these projects?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182579}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349478.9552929, "message": "theres a tangible, formal piece of logic you have written that proves the correctness of your code", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182613}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348416.1156411, "message": "for flash / flex", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182143}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348504.0335879, "message": "TDD on stuff like a javascript function that returns distance between two points: easy to TDD", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182170}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348848.719347, "message": "yeah", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182303}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349124.0615211, "message": "its just the maintenance phase is shorter", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182440}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349227.487344, "message": "is that better?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182496}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349367.560009, "message": "each person has their own motivations", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182554}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349447.843966, "message": "i get this warm fuzzy, safe feeling, like curling up on the couch and putting on a blanket, when I finish writing a test suite", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182599}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349464.6034329, "message": "yes", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182606}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349663.387413, "message": "gah you bastards... now I gotta start writing some unit tests... been lazy recently", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182678}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348683.8281391, "message": "sorry am catching up on the messages", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182240}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349241.305465, "message": "it will come in week 3 or 4", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182504}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349242.827024, "message": "every language has unit testing tools now", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182505}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349375.297699, "message": "yeay-uh!", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182564}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349560.009048, "message": "then I said... good ... we'll have a training on it cuz I'm going to make this the standard on all projects... that brought excitement to the team", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182648}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348693.3672891, "message": "Maybe I should just video it... wait - I think I have one already up somewhere...", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182244}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348704.410773, "message": "that would be awesome", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182247}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348748.900985, "message": "don't sell it... you don't sell whether or not you use RobotLegs or AS3 Signals", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182260}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349137.076251, "message": "it impacts the schedule, of course it does", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182448}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348917.3929889, "message": "lol sean... spammer", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182335}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349053.0250449, "message": "me neither", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182396}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349151.5410709, "message": "but the end result is a higher quality product", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182459}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349311.3064661, "message": "they just haven't had a chance usually to do them", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182530}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349319.228946, "message": "eg - we started on a piece of work yesterday, and by yesterday evening had come across a really gnarly \"What if... \" - we threw it back to the client and they're still chewing on it", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182532}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349491.513557, "message": "once you get comfortable with it and part of your team does, then roll it out to others", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182620}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348972.1413431, "message": "there's no \"rules\"", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182357}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348982.7215419, "message": "you'll never look back", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182363}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349046.315026, "message": "well", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182392}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349090.9074221, "message": "TDD is about future growth", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182425}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349094.8049271, "message": "yes", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182426}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348899.665339, "message": "you just have to push for it", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182325}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348922.4935031, "message": "TDD is an excellent process to sell to do just that", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182340}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349066.607774, "message": "thats not a problem", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182409}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349078.7450321, "message": "client == executives in this case", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182421}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349112.436496, "message": "@sean: I'll watch that video tonight, can't now", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182433}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349256.603569, "message": "but you still never know... there is definitely a learning curve, but there's no way to know how your devs are going to take to it. They might take to it like fish in water...", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182511}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349353.4020791, "message": "massage them", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182549}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349358.8137729, "message": "my point was that it was only because we were doing TDD that we even thought of the scenario", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182552}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349405.3562689, "message": "I know at least I do", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182575}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350094.012538, "message": "indeed", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182884}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350292.904582, "message": "two test methods... neither pass", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182952}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306348960.343894, "message": "or at least start getting tests in place for your code", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182353}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349056.3668361, "message": "they are two totally diff things", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182398}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349059.7545531, "message": "yup", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182402}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349065.7493811, "message": "anything can effect deadline", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182407}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349237.355459, "message": "the first deliverable won't come in a week or two after project starts", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182501}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349321.956044, "message": "you guys should spend just one day here...", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182533}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349348.3557949, "message": "I like to change people :-P", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182545}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349839.4097781, "message": "recruiter said they were looking for c++/Java generalists", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182758}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350033.3167961, "message": "yeah, im out too. thanks guys for the chat, great info. much appreciated!", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182844}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349060.1643829, "message": "1) you need to motivate your team to embrace the approach", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182403}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349114.0119219, "message": "i can easily show you two SOWs, one that is TDD and other that is not, and you will see more or less the same bottom line $", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182434}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349127.154273, "message": "the dev is longer", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182443}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349141.477849, "message": "any change in methodology will", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182452}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349174.6260109, "message": "totes", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182475}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349207.509856, "message": "i understand your concerns to what I said, as a TDD dude myself :)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182488}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349220.4994071, "message": "it impacts the schedule of deliverables", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182493}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349226.1028211, "message": "well I would just work it in as part of an existing process, don't hit them over the head and say \"we're doing TDD now\"", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182495}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349402.1338899, "message": "I think most of us as engineers instinctively just like \"diving into\" coding", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182573}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349402.536844, "message": "it's going to force EVERYONE to think through what you're doing.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182574}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349460.1070189, "message": "@tony well then just start doing it for your parts of the code...", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182603}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349485.6524401, "message": "thats how im intending to get started based on the feedback from all you guys", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182618}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350267.8089621, "message": "alright... guess im back to reviewing code...", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182945}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349708.7632501, "message": "maybe after i watch sean's video ;)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182699}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350038.7117231, "message": "thanks dudes me too", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182848}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350045.943891, "message": "go write some tests bitches!", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182857}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350046.5692091, "message": ";)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182858}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349532.0251119, "message": "next project I was on by myself I unit tested data and view layer", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182639}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349650.896158, "message": "but yea... I'd throw DOnt Make Me Think in the fireplace tonight and start reading The Art of Unit Testing", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182675}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349705.787442, "message": "hahah", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182698}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350274.793288, "message": "talk about devs that dont get tdd", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182948}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350297.8288291, "message": "RIGHT ON", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182954}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349369.8435481, "message": "I've always lead dev standards here and what i saw iS THE LAW", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182556}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349430.9504471, "message": "I've literally debugged code twice in 5 weeks, both times because I didn't write a couple of tests to cover a scenario... thats how TDD saves me time", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182587}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349520.8544631, "message": "when I started introducing it here thats a similar approach I took... I started doing it on a project I was by myself on.. and I only unit tested the data layer", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182631}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349585.4438181, "message": "Feedback I got from them: \"awesome... I want to learn more\" \"sweet, I want to get more training to code better...\"", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182655}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349603.5543799, "message": "LOL", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182661}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349607.654444, "message": "just trying to help man", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182662}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349621.0091109, "message": "haha, i know and i have it bookmarked", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182665}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349626.6054959, "message": "ill be watching it tonight", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182666}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349721.4148719, "message": "just get up and walk outta the theatre dude", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182703}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349981.72802, "message": ":)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182821}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349347.415488, "message": "this is true", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182544}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349373.7145109, "message": "another good advantage of TDD", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182561}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349420.9764521, "message": "I used to... now it feels wrong :)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182582}, {"user_id": 34287, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349472.3551941, "message": "get other devs who are interested to do it too", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182608}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350058.867106, "message": "NO TDD IS TEH BAD MAN", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182866}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350202.2913899, "message": "that's insane", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182931}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350374.612679, "message": "i think i already told you this story... murrrrrggghhhh..... anyway", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182969}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349506.5847139, "message": "yes", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182622}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349716.9349339, "message": "lol", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182702}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349805.804863, "message": "with TDD? zero. Without... zero.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182743}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350007.1708381, "message": "exactly, why else do they have meals, and laundry, and sleep pods, and all the other crap they have to keep you in the office 24/7", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182835}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350052.1388991, "message": "haha", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182864}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350121.1679249, "message": ":)", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182899}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350138.3760209, "message": "or", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182906}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350142.3522601, "message": "u can hit up Tiny Elvis", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182908}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350145.7010109, "message": "I'm out!", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182914}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349699.0250449, "message": "@s9tpepper: its like a shitty movie, im 3/4 of the way through it, gotta finish", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182694}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349757.788424, "message": "too funny that earlier today i ran into his post on getting rejected from google because he didnt know binary searches", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182723}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349775.5561819, "message": "lol", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182728}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349776.7013381, "message": "thats insane", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182729}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349802.734947, "message": "like seriously... does it matter?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182741}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349827.988857, "message": "same thing happened to me when i interviewed there, like 5 years ago", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182751}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349829.343636, "message": "0 because the array search method in as3 is already a binary search", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182752}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349867.238821, "message": "fuk... i just launched my bakcup macbook onto the floor lol... it took an iDive", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182772}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349883.7332649, "message": "did you get asked about the hare and tortoise algorithm for finding a loop in a linked list?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182782}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349527.2184539, "message": "tony seriously man, take an hour and watch that video. all topics and questions mentioned here today are in there.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182636}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349729.986177, "message": "yes", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182710}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349794.0673831, "message": "0", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182737}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349834.0363851, "message": "lol", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182755}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349855.8059881, "message": "i get there and get grilled on search/sort algorithms", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182767}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350144.4544971, "message": "http://www.garagetv.be/video-galerij/whitewhidow/tiny_elvis.aspx", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182912}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350411.6874681, "message": "right now. one other guy joining.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182976}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349976.596782, "message": "I expect it's more about finding fellow geeks that are so passionate about algorithms that they have no family to miss them when they sleep at the office...", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182820}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349785.667732, "message": "how many of those have you written in production code", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182733}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349809.731909, "message": "lol", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182745}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349831.027827, "message": "but TDD is bad dude! you need to know how to write binary search algorithms dammit!", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182754}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349834.909379, "message": "LOL", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182756}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350085.0574789, "message": "hehe", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182877}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350237.93574, "message": "nicolas cage!", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182941}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350327.5334561, "message": "sounds like no fun :P", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182957}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349925.657495, "message": "i did not, i dont remember much of it now", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182797}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349926.9246249, "message": "</geek>", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182798}, {"user_id": 34288, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350040.1964619, "message": "off to lunch", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182851}, {"user_id": 15357, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306349947.273972, "message": "after doing some research about them, I dont know that I'd really want to go work there at this point in my life", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182804}, {"user_id": 11098, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350003.5465879, "message": "right.. back to my php test!", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182834}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350118.9957521, "message": "we can all argue about why TDD is teh suck or something", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182895}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350159.3666501, "message": "think im good on that", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182919}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350040.731261, "message": "LOL. true that.", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182852}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350100.684864, "message": "hit up tinychat sometime", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182889}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350397.095201, "message": "haha, yea man... is he the only dev on w/ u?", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182973}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350043.217607, "message": "peace", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182854}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350257.346652, "message": "think wild at heart is my fav flick he's in...", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182944}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350277.049844, "message": "jfc", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182949}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350284.6422501, "message": "this guy turned in ALL kinds of code...", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182951}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350361.587153, "message": "yeah... idk how im going to get thru to this guy.. he tells my bossman.. this is an awful lot of tests for some simple functionality...", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182964}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350198.195632, "message": "wtf", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182928}, {"user_id": 34285, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350281.554436, "message": "lol", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182950}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350427.0106039, "message": "he's supposed to be 'better' .... we'll see", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1182980}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350642.8849599, "message": "alright gang", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1183022}, {"user_id": 34289, "stars": [], "topic_id": 36783, "date_created": 1306350646.552098, "message": "heading out", "group_id": 10155, "id": 1183024}]
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